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vodo40k wrote:Lol I like the idea of him setting fire to nurgles garden. I have this image of him, grinning mischievously with a sliver zippo (with the =I= engraved on it of course) setting fire to a half dead tree, while a plague bearer has its back turned.

That's something that bothered me me with Nurgle and Plague marines in particular since their minis were first released. You would have thought that plague carrying corpses would shun heat weapons and here they are toting Plasma , melta and flamers as standard fayre. They don't fear fire do they?

Mr. Burning wrote:

vodo40k wrote:Lol I like the idea of him setting fire to nurgles garden. I have this image of him, grinning mischievously with a sliver zippo (with the =I= engraved on it of course) setting fire to a half dead tree, while a plague bearer has its back turned.

That's something that bothered me me with Nurgle and Plague marines in particular since their minis were first released. You would have thought that plague carrying corpses would shun heat weapons and here they are toting Plasma , melta and flamers as standard fayre. They don't fear fire do they?

I can't remember of any piece of fluff saying that especially fear fire. I guess they are vulnerable to it as much as any other faction.

I just want to know where Draigo gets his storm bolter ammo or keeps his armour in repairs/upkept. Does his GK friends carry extra ammo just in case they bump into him so he can restock?

His faith in the Emprah does it.

temprus wrote:I just want to know where Draigo gets his storm bolter ammo or keeps his armour in repairs/upkept. Does his GK friends carry extra ammo just in case they bump into him so he can restock?

He forges it out of daemon's swords with his mind...
It seems to be the only thing he can use to make weapons.

Or you could just make up some other unreasonable reason for it, such as he carves his bullets out of the bones of daemons. It sounds like something Matt Ward would tell you.

Had the 'pleasure' of actually reading the printed entry today in my LGS.

From defeating M'Kar after a drawn-out single combat with the hilt of his broken nemesis blade, to creating 'purifying flame' the garden of Nurgle, he's taken to an extreme I find difficult to stomach (Although, I am substantially less 'wtf' on some points than I was beforehand).

The thing I find most difficult to comprehend is the defeat of various favoured servants of the Dark Gods. It almost seems M'Kar is becoming the 'new Avatar', the creature an Astartes beats the living hell out of to prove his might (Marneus Calgar and Mephiston have also sent him back to the warp).

Apart from M'Kar, he stomps around the warp tearing daemons limb-from-limb, including several powerful names of note. He slays several favoured daemonettes of Slaanesh, defeats a Bloodthirster at the top of the Blood Falls, and imprisons a Lord of Change (I believe it is M'Kachen) under the rubble of the walls of the Inevitable City (Not sure if that's right, it's what I remember but I don't remember any other references to this place). It's now at the point where he travels around the warp, and has built such a reputation for being uncorruptable that only the most bloodthirsty of Khorne's daemons seek him out.

It does seem rather out of proportion to a single Astartes, skilled Grey Knight or not. These are the kind of battles one would attribute to a Primarch, a being of such power the events that lead to their creation have never been attempted again, and if it is to be believed, the Emperor had to bargain with the powers of Chaos to bring them into creation.

I could just be of an different mindset, where Daemon Princes and Greater Demons are of a power that is truly epic, and the defeat of one takes far more than a single Astartes (Sanguinius defeating Ka'Bandha made me realise the power he possessed, I was rather disappointed to read the Sanguinor fluff that has him defeating a Bloodthirster that broke the legs of his own Primarch). It makes me wonder exactly how far over the top future Space Marine codeci will become.

purplefood wrote:

temprus wrote:I just want to know where Draigo gets his storm bolter ammo or keeps his armour in repairs/upkept. Does his GK friends carry extra ammo just in case they bump into him so he can restock?

He forges it out of daemon's swords with his mind...
It seems to be the only thing he can use to make weapons.

I don't remember actually seeing a Storm Bolter on his profile.

He has a SB and grenades. I imagine he doesn't use it much though.

Kanluwen wrote:

purplefood wrote:

temprus wrote:I just want to know where Draigo gets his storm bolter ammo or keeps his armour in repairs/upkept. Does his GK friends carry extra ammo just in case they bump into him so he can restock?

He forges it out of daemon's swords with his mind...
It seems to be the only thing he can use to make weapons.

I don't remember actually seeing a Storm Bolter on his profile.

Seems it'd be a lot more efficient if he just crafted and fired the bullets with his mind...

Mind bullets. That's Telekinesis, Kyle.

pretre wrote:Mind bullets. That's Telekinesis, Kyle.

And (given the various polls and this thread) he clearly has the power to move you

I have a question. I have been thinking about the fact that he carved his name, or the name of a fellow fallen GK on the Heart of Mortarion. I could be wrong, I didn't have the chance to read this codex yet.

This single fact puts into question my entire understanding of the power-relationships between primarchs and Astartes. I thought that, in single combat, NO primarch could be bested by ANY kind of Astartes, especially a primarch that received gifts from the Chaos Gods.

Mortarion was probably not the badass one among the primarchs, but still, how was Draigo able to best him in single combat, tear his chest open and write "you suck" (or whatever he wrote) on his heart?

To me, it sounds like:
a) The primarchs' power is based on fear and reputation more than actual combat skills
b) With the case of Draigo, Humanity was able to recreate a being equal to the Emperor's primarchs

These two points leave me scratching my head. What are your thoughts on this?

It wasn't single combat. It was a force of Grey Knights led by Draigo versus Mortarion. Draigo was not (and still is not) primarch powerful.

It is vague as to details though.

Laodamia wrote:I have a question. I have been thinking about the fact that he carved his name, or the name of a fellow fallen GK on the Heart of Mortarion. I could be wrong, I didn't have the chance to read this codex yet.

This single fact puts into question my entire understanding of the power-relationships between primarchs and Astartes. I thought that, in single combat, NO primarch could be bested by ANY kind of Astartes, especially a primarch that received gifts from the Chaos Gods.

Mortarion was probably not the badass one among the primarchs, but still, how was Draigo able to best him in single combat, tear his chest open and write "you suck" (or whatever he wrote) on his heart?

To me, it sounds like:
a) The primarchs' power is based on fear and reputation more than actual combat skills
b) With the case of Draigo, Humanity was able to recreate a being equal to the Emperor's primarchs

These two points leave me scratching my head. What are your thoughts on this?

IIRC it wasnt just him it was him and the previous supreme grandmaster Jainus, the two strongest grey knights in existence. Keep in mind the power disparity between astrates and grey knights, GK's were in theory made from the emperors own geneseed to be incorruptible warriors against chaos, In a sense there a halfway point between astrates and the primarchs of old. IIRC in one of the books by black library a 3rd or 4th company captain of a chapter of astrates gets bested in combat by a grey knight justicar who was just toying with him.

Makes sense that Mortation now being a daemon prince and thereby having a weakness to the anti daemon weaponry they field could in theory be bested (not utterly destroyed mind you) by the two greatest grey knights in existence no ?. Allthough I would imagine a "mortal" primarch who wasnt part daemon would have fared much better against the two.

A normal primarch?

No, not a hope

A DAEMON primarch, when you have been created, trained and armed *specifically* to beat Daemons, and therefore havea whole load of advantages that you woudlnt otherwise have? Yes, IF there are two of you, the two strongest of the most elite marine force and *one of you dies in the process*, THEN you have a chance of beating them.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp: a daemon primarch has a whole host of advantages that a normal primarch doesnt. On the other hand its very nature means it is now susceptible to effects that a normal primarch wouldnt be. Rock, paper, scissors in other words.

ChronoCupcake wrote:
IIRC it wasnt just him it was him and the previous supreme grandmaster Jainus, the two strongest grey knights in existence.

Janus was not there. Janus was GM of the GK during the Horus Heresy. Draigo became SGM 11k years later. He and a force of GK's (it is unclear how many) pulled off the stunt against Mortarion.

Keep in mind the power disparity between astrates and grey knights, GK's were in theory made from the emperors own geneseed to be incorruptible warriors against chaos, In a sense there a halfway point between astrates and the primarchs of old. IIRC in one of the books by black library a 3rd or 4th company captain of a chapter of astrates gets bested in combat by a grey knight justicar who was just toying with him.

You are muddling up Custodes and Grey Knights. Grey Knights great strength is that they are uncorruptible and psykers, not that they are supremely better than normal astartes. They also get better gear. Also, there is no confirmation, that I am aware of, that GKs come from the Emperor's Geneseed (or that the Emperor even had geneseed, in the way that we think of it). The black library passage you are thinking of was Custodes and Word Bearers, unless I'm thinking of a different one.

Makes sense that Mortation now being a daemon prince and thereby having a weakness to the anti daemon weaponry they field could in theory be bested (not utterly destroyed mind you) by the two greatest grey knights in existence no ?. Allthough I would imagine a "mortal" primarch who wasnt part daemon would have fared much better against the two.

I'm guessing that the better part of a GK strike force could indeed successfully deal with a Daemon Primarch, as they did it before with Angron. Two GKs? Probably not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, IF there are two of you, the two strongest of the most elite marine force and *one of you dies in the process*, THEN you have a chance of beating them.

Pretty sure this is not how it went down. From the book:
"He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaughter of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve..."

I'm pretty sure you don't get field promoted during a fight with a Daemon to Sup GM. I believe you'll find there was time between those two events and Draigo led a force against Mortarion.

pretre wrote:It wasn't single combat. It was a force of Grey Knights led by Draigo versus Mortarion. Draigo was not (and still is not) primarch powerful.

It is vague as to details though.

Could be a bit like this

The First War for Armageddon
by Imperial scriveners Graham McNeill & Andy Hoare
Aurellian focussed all his hatred of the Fallen One until it was an incandescent power that burned within him and threatened to consume his flesh unless released. His battle-brothers felt the power building within him and, understanding the finality of such powerful psychic energy, began doing likewise. Angron roared, clearly sensing the buildup of their power, but either did not care or, in his arrogance, believed himself too powerful to be harmed by it. He charged towards Aurellian, bellowing in fury. Aurellian felt the power of his fellow warriors pulse through him and released it in a fiery corona of psychic energy. He screamed as the colossal forces wracked his shattered body, feeling the life energies of three of his battle brothers fade as the power consumed them. The Bloodthirsters screeched in rage as the power of the Grey Knights’ faith hit them like a tidal wave, two bursting apart in an explosion of black ichor.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390091a_WD278_C_Imperialis(Armageddon).pdf

ChronoCupcake wrote:Basically Im curious as to whats going on at GW hq as this seems to be such a radical departure from everything theyve done so far, to summarize some of the leaked fluff Lord Kaldor Draigo is famous for killing a daemon prince in his first combat action, banishing daemon primarch Mortarion back to the warp, somehow carving the name of the previous supreme grand master Janus into the heart of said daemon primarch, single handedly holding off a daemon horde for two days in real space, killing a daemon prince with a broken sword, Killing one of Khorne's strongest bloodthirsters with little to no weaponry, taking said bloodthirsters axe and reforging it into a sword for his own personal use USING HIS MIND, slaying 6 of Slaanesh's chosen daemonettes, setting fire to Nurgle's garden and slaying countless daemons whilst being trapped in warpspace.

So, what in this is accurate? I've heard whispers but I want to hear from people who have read the codex.

ChronoCupcake wrote:Basically Im curious as to whats going on at GW hq as this seems to be such a radical departure from everything theyve done so far, to summarize some of the leaked fluff Lord Kaldor Draigo is famous for killing a daemon prince in his first combat action,

True, but not single combat he struck the killing blow.

banishing daemon primarch Mortarion back to the warp,

Unclear, not in the fluff. In fact, there is a theory that the GK's just have Mortarion's heart in a box somewhere and Draigo wandered down to cold storage and cut the name in. (Joking, mostly. The text is really unclear as to what happened to cause the carving to come up.)

somehow carving the name of the previous supreme grand master Janus into the heart of said daemon primarch,

Kinda true. He did carve the previous master's name, but it wasn't Janus.

single handedly holding off a daemon horde for two days in real space,

True, it was in a thin pass that he held. Marneus Calgar did the same thing against orks, I beleive.

killing a daemon prince with a broken sword,

True, although he almost died and was banished to the Realms of Chaos in the process.

Killing one of Khorne's strongest bloodthirsters with little to no weaponry, taking said bloodthirsters axe and reforging it into a sword for his own personal use USING HIS MIND,

Partially true. No where does it say that it was one of Khorne's strongest, but he did kill him with his broken sword and did melt the axe with purifying psychic flame and use it to reforge his sword.

slaying 6 of Slaanesh's chosen daemonettes, setting fire to Nurgle's garden and slaying countless daemons whilst being trapped in warpspace.

True, although everything that he does in warpspace is meaningless as the chaos gods just reverse the changes.

Maybe he was in a Dread Knight at the time ...

Oh yeah, I went there

I am pretty sure the fluff isnt true and thats just what the GK masters tell the battle brothers before they go forth to battle innumerable daemon hordes so they don't think they can die before the conflict begins...

And by the way, how 'bout that Fallout 3 Recon Armor Helmet? Between that and the Dreadknight they're just doing a Brotherhood of Steel port.

This is beating a dead horse but I'll say it anyway.

If it took 100 Grey Knights to banish Angron, 2 Grey Knight grand masters shouldn't be able to pull it off. I don't care how bad ass they are, there is only 2 of them.

Also, Calgar's paired powerfists used to be a chaos weapon.

Owain wrote:And by the way, how 'bout that Fallout 3 Recon Armor Helmet? Between that and the Dreadknight they're just doing a Brotherhood of Steel port.

I never played this game but I heard about it.

You mean a lot of fluff from the new GK is similar to the fallout background?

Noisy_Marine wrote:This is beating a dead horse but I'll say it anyway.

If it took 100 Grey Knights to banish Angron, 2 Grey Knight grand masters shouldn't be able to pull it off. I don't care how bad ass they are, there is only 2 of them.

Also, Calgar's paired powerfists used to be a chaos weapon.

Where are you getting this? 2 GKGMs didn't banish Mortarion. That's not in the book.

Someone up above mis-posted something about that, but it was disproved.

Noisy_Marine wrote:
If it took 100 Grey Knights to banish Angron, 2 Grey Knight grand masters shouldn't be able to pull it off.

You're totally right. Remember all those other stories we read about Calgar single handedly killing a planet, or Grimnar repelling a black crusade by himself? Wait, they're in charge of chapters; they don't EVER fight alone. Neither to Grey Knight masters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VenerableBrotherPelinore wrote:
From defeating M'Kar after a drawn-out single combat with the hilt of his broken nemesis blade, to creating 'purifying flame' the garden of Nurgle, he's taken to an extreme I find difficult to stomach

40k goes to 11.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:
If it took 100 Grey Knights to banish Angron, 2 Grey Knight grand masters shouldn't be able to pull it off.

You're totally right. Remember all those other stories we read about Calgar single handedly killing a planet, or Grimnar repelling a black crusade by himself? Wait, they're in charge of chapters; they don't EVER fight alone. Neither to Grey Knight masters.

Wold Lords often go on solo missions.
There is nothing in the fluff for Logan that really makes him ridiculous.
Calgar... well blame Matt Ward for that entire codex.

I believe you'll find that DarknessEternal was being sarcastic.

pretre wrote:I believe you'll find that DarknessEternal was being sarcastic.

It's more along the lines of exaggeration.
But most of the stories make it clear quite how grimdark the situation is and although they have millions of men somehow it won't be enough.