Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Vargtass wrote:

pretre wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

Wasn't by himself, he was with the chapter at the time. If the whole (or a large part) of the GK's chapter was wandering around the RoC, Nurgle might be more concerned.

Or the Chaos Gods are too concerned keeping an eye on each other, which is why they use minions to do the Black Crusading and the defiling and the warp fissuring and stuff.

The reason I guess to why he carved the name into Mortarion's heart is because he couldn't do anything better, this is the Primarch that was chosen and exalted by Nurgle, the guy probably could take a Titan stomp in the face and still take a walk around the hood spreading diseased candy all around. So if you can't defeat the bastard, leave a memento.

Still a stupid story, mind you.

Eh. I'd say the reason he did it is less "he couldn't do anything better", but more of a calculated insult.

Let's face it. Mortarion, like any other Daemon who isn't properly destroyed and banished, will be back. He just has to recuperate in the Warp.

Kanluwen wrote:Mephiston has always been over the top though. Even in Codex: Angels of Death.

FTFY.

In Codex: AoD, BA were much closer to Vampires, IMHO. They thirsted for blood and howled and that's where Meph got his Transfixing Glare. Meph also 'defeated the Red Thirst' by giving into it as shown by the Special Rule 'Blood Greed': "If Mephiston fails the test he must stop and drink the blood of his enemy."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:But I think this is my problem with the Draigo fluff as well.

I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

And yes, I know this is all in a make believe land, but it's my hobby and interest and something that I enjoy and would like to for many years to come

Do you like Lysander, Ghaz, Yarrick? Heck, any of the characters in 5th edition?

Most of them came from this same process, upping things to 11 and creating uber stuff that has never been there before.

40k is not frozen. Go compare a 2nd edition codex to Rogue Trader! OMG CODEX CREEP!!!!
Go look at how different Lysander is in the 3rd edition marine codex versus the 5th edition one! He used to be a sargeant upgrade that gave you Bolter Drill. That's it.

It is a living, evolving game. Things will change. It is also space fantasy / space opera. Things are meant to be OTT and get more so.

ChronoCupcake wrote: Primarchs afaik are portrayed as these invincible demi gods and yet this dude carved a name into a daemon primarchs heart ?!?!,

Daemon Primarchs have been getting killed by Grey Knights since LITERALLY the first occurrence of either in the fluff (1st battle of Armageddon, Titanicus/Space Marine era of game ~1990).

Luckily, getting killed isn't really a big deal for Daemon Primarchs.

Where as you and I drive home from work, a DP just looks for a GKGM to save him the trip.

Pilau Rice wrote:I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

Exactly, I just fear what insanity the DA and BT codecies will have in them Its slowly getting more and more silly. This is (IMO) only effecting the marine books though, DE, whilst being a very competitive book, isn't stupid like the astartes books are becoming.

pretre wrote:
Do you like Lysander, Ghaz, Yarrick? Heck, any of the characters in 5th edition?

Are we referring to fluff or table top here? I like the fluff concerning the likes of Yarrick and Ghaz but haven't had the joy of facing them on table top yet. I've been playing for the last 2 years but have only played 14 games and haven't came across any of these characters. Nor have I really delved into them on their respective codex.

pretre wrote:Most of them came from this same process, upping things to 11 and creating uber stuff that has never been there before.

40k is not frozen. Go compare a 2nd edition codex to Rogue Trader! OMG CODEX CREEP!!!!
Go look at how different Lysander is in the 3rd edition marine codex versus the 5th edition one! He used to be a sargeant upgrade that gave you Bolter Drill. That's it.

It is a living, evolving game. Things will change. It is also space fantasy / space opera. Things are meant to be OTT and get more so.

Hey, I would still play 2nd ed if I could and most of my army is Rogue Trader.

Just because stuff gets more and more powerful doesn't make it better. You could keep a lot of the miniatures and state lines as they are but improve the rules and execution of the game. Maybe concentrate on writing rulebooks that are 100% clear without misinterpretation.

And why are they meant to get more over the top? The universe is set and already has some pretty amazing things in it why does anything need to get more ridiculous? I know you need to keep the game you know, interesting, but still. Look at Star Wars and what happened there

The 40k universe hasn't advanced and is stuck

Gorechild wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

Exactly, I just fear what insanity the DA and BT codecies will have in them Its slowly getting more and more silly. This is (IMO) only effecting the marine books though, DE, whilst being a very competitive book, isn't stupid like the astartes books are becoming.

Well i'm glad i am not the only one gorechild

Pilau Rice wrote:

I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

I'm gonna go start a thread hating on Hercules, cause he kinda did the same thing to Greek Mythology.

Pilau Rice wrote:
The 40k universe hasn't advanced and is stuck

Umm. Don't know what to say here. Are you talking about is the story progressing? That's kind of the point? They artificially are freezing time in the m41? The Imperium is supposed to be stagnant?

The difference is that they are filling in more between M30 and M41 as time goes along.

And DE aren't OTT? Really?

pretre wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
The 40k universe hasn't advanced and is stuck

Umm. Don't know what to say here. Are you talking about is the story progressing? That's kind of the point? They artificially are freezing time in the m41? The Imperium is supposed to be stagnant?

The difference is that they are filling in more between M30 and M41 as time goes along.

And DE aren't OTT? Really?

My comment was tongue in cheek Pretre, hence the wink. But maybe my point was that we should have and know most of what is included in current fluff. Maybe if they did move the clock on to M42 and the Ad Mech pulled their finger out their ass then we might have things like the Avatar Knight thing clunking around.

I never said that Dark Eldar weren't OTT did I

That was mostly in response to one you were responding to. I think Gore said it.

IMHO, DE are just as OTT fluff-wise.

Platuan4th wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

I'm gonna go start a thread hating on Hercules, cause he kinda did the same thing to Greek Mythology.

But I like Disney and there would be no Xena without him

pretre wrote:That was mostly in response to one you were responding to. I think Gore said it.

IMHO, DE are just as OTT fluff-wise.

Okie dokie

But haven't the Dark Eldar always been like that though and nothing much has really changed?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Or like, I don't know... Logan Grimnar(who's Axe was once a Chaos weapon, can't remember if it was a Daemon Weapon or not)? Or the Inquisition(Radicals do it regularly)?

It's far from unheard of outside the Relictors.

Well I never knew about Logans Axe and the radical Inquisitors aren't exactly the flavour of the month with the rest of the Inquisition.

But fair enough.

So are Calgar's gauntlets iirc

I'm sure GW gets a lot of negative feedback concerning Matt Ward's OTT fluff writing. And IMO, his ridiculous tendency to overrate the factions he writes about is the reason why he was chosen to write the BA codex and the totally new GK one. Because by creating such a powerful army in terms of fluff (and probably in terms of games too), it probably pleases a lot of inexperienced gamers.

Just look at the facts. I think we all agree that the GK looks like the most OTT piece of fluff written so far. Well guess what? The new GK minis are also the most expensive plastic minis produced so far by GW. They are literally 30-40% more expensive than an average SM plastic kit.

Do you really think it is a coincidence? Because I don't. I simply consider it as a very clever marketing strategy.

Umm, way to miss the point.

Yes, GK are more expensive than Tacticals. Tacticals and 'average SM kits' are the cheapest because they are subsidized by volume. Everyone buys them.

Try comparing 5th Edition GK vs 3rd Edition prices. When you had to buy all the Psyc and specials as metal and separately. Yeaaaah. That was a bit more expensive.

Now look at the $33.00 GK box that has bits for four different squad types included stock. Kinda think you're barking up the wrong tree.

pretre wrote:Umm, way to miss the point.

Yes, GK are more expensive than Tacticals. Tacticals and 'average SM kits' are the cheapest because they are subsidized by volume. Everyone buys them.

Try comparing 5th Edition GK vs 3rd Edition prices. When you had to buy all the Psyc and specials as metal and separately. Yeaaaah. That was a bit more expensive.

Now look at the $33.00 GK box that has bits for four different squad types included stock. Kinda think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Signed - It's nice to see there's not a lot of different boxes to get your favourite equipment ( Power Fist for Tac-squad sarge anyone?) for several units.



About Draigo - he has become a Deamon Prince, doesn't know it yet. I like the new trend of diversity in army profiles - in 3rd ed, there was only S4 T4.
Spending his lifetime in the warp changes Draigo - he could be million years old by now, without physically changing.

Interesting premise, the DP thing... There is fluff to support folks living in the Warp/RoC for long periods of time without being changed, however.

13th Company, Lysander, etc.

Also, in 2nd Ed, only base marines were S4/T4, everyone else was all over the place for stats.

The 13th company hasn't survived unscathed though...
Then again Draigo broke his nice sword and had to make a shiny new one...

They aren't unscathed, but they don't have warp mutations and certainly aren't daemon princes.

The only thing they've done that is at all questionable, that I remember, is that they use more and different psychic powers amongst their rune priests.

pretre wrote:They aren't unscathed, but they don't have warp mutations and certainly aren't daemon princes.

The only thing they've done that is at all questionable, that I remember, is that they use more and different psychic powers amongst their rune priests.

I think their was something about the Warp increasing their susceptibility to the Wulfen curse.
The Rune Priests do kinda use Chaos-ey powers to fight Chaos which would be fine with a Radical Inq. but not a Puritan... probably wouldn't sit well with most of the IoM either.

pretre wrote:Umm, way to miss the point.

Yes, GK are more expensive than Tacticals. Tacticals and 'average SM kits' are the cheapest because they are subsidized by volume. Everyone buys them.

Try comparing 5th Edition GK vs 3rd Edition prices. When you had to buy all the Psyc and specials as metal and separately. Yeaaaah. That was a bit more expensive.

Now look at the $33.00 GK box that has bits for four different squad types included stock. Kinda think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Yes, the fact that you can make up four different squads with the GK box is a valid argument. But even in this case, I still think it is used as a strategy to increase selling profits by GW. Because they chose to focus on the quality of their new products and not the quantity of products you get for a fixed amount of money.
It is true that you have the choice between four different types of minis in those new GK boxes, but in the end, you can still only assemble and paint a single squad. Which means you'll probably buy a couple more boxes for your shiny new army.
You'll certainly end up with a more varied and nicer-looking army than with the previous codices, but you paid 50% more than for your vanilla marines army list. And this is way I consider this as a remarkable marketing strategy, because the gamers are going to be super-happy with the stupendous amounts of conversions and modifications they can make, and GW will probably achieve a substantial increase in sales with this new Codex.

Don't mistake me! I'm not barking at all.

purplefood wrote:

pretre wrote:They aren't unscathed, but they don't have warp mutations and certainly aren't daemon princes.

The only thing they've done that is at all questionable, that I remember, is that they use more and different psychic powers amongst their rune priests.

I think their was something about the Warp increasing their susceptibility to the Wulfen curse.
The Rune Priests do kinda use Chaos-ey powers to fight Chaos which would be fine with a Radical Inq. but not a Puritan... probably wouldn't sit well with most of the IoM either.

There was some of that, but also it has just been so long that practically all of them have succumbed to the curse. All in all, the 13th are doing pretty well for themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laodamia wrote:Yes, the fact that you can make up four different squads with the GK box is a valid argument. But even in this case, I still think it is used as a strategy to increase selling profits by GW. Because they chose to focus on the quality of their new products and not the quantity of products you get for a fixed amount of money.
It is true that you have the choice between four different types of minis in those new GK boxes, but in the end, you can still only assemble and paint a single squad. Which means you'll probably buy a couple more boxes for your shiny new army.
You'll certainly end up with a more varied and nicer-looking army than with the previous codices, but you paid 50% more than for your vanilla marines army list. And this is way I consider this as a remarkable marketing strategy, because the gamers are going to be super-happy with the stupendous amounts of conversions and modifications they can make, and GW will probably achieve a substantial increase in sales with this new Codex.

Don't mistake me! I'm not barking at all.

Wait, so GW's strategy is to make quality products and charge appropriate prices for them? That's CrAzYtAlK!!!!

We're over thinking this. We need to keep our sights set on the simple fact that:

Draigo can make it happen

Whatever it is that we need done or explained:

Draigo can make it happen

Adequate pricing...

Well that's another issue.

Charging more than £20 or $30 for five plastic toy soldiers is not necessarily adequate... But I'm getting OT.

Anyway, my original argument was that GW is certainly aware that Matt Ward has a tendency to write OTT fluff, but they probably use it as a marketing strategy. I mean the marketing staff of GW is certainly not stupid, if they use Ward for their new fluff, it must be because they think he's the guy that is going to sell the most minis.

The new Grey Knights are $2 cheaper than they were before, with WAY more options. Also, why are you even comparing Grey Knights to tactical marines? If anything you should compare them to Death Company. 5 Grey Knights are easily the equal of a tactical squad. The Terminators are also cheaper than their standard counterparts, with WAY more options. Besides. people bought plenty of the metal grey knights and didn't really complain.

Well, I never compared GK to tactical marines anyway. I just made a global comparison between the income GW would get from GK and Vanilla Marines. And I was not assessing their quality in terms of game. In all honesty, we can't really talk about that until we get our hands on the new codex and try the minis "in the field".
And actually, GK and vanilla termies have the same price no?
If I was to summarize my point, I would simply say that GW is basically aiming at higher profits with the same investment.

So yes, plastic minis are definitely cheaper than metal ones. But the plastic minis are getting more expensive for us...

This is kind of off-topic for the Draigo thread. Normally, I would recommend starting a new thread, but this topic has been done to death.

Yes, prices rise over time. Yes, GW is a business. Kind of old news.

It would be funny if it turned out GK played really badly...
All this horror at the BMBC and the rest of the GK and they suck...

Remember the Tyranid hype?

Even the BA are cooling down at this point.

Everything is OMG before it comes out and people get some games in.

pretre wrote:Remember the Tyranid hype?

Even the BA are cooling down at this point.

Everything is OMG before it comes out and people get some games in.

+1

What I am living in fear of are the inevitable:
'hai guyz I want my Space Wolves to be more killy so I am going to be using GK rulez OK?'
Or
'I really like the GK rules but hate the minis, can I run them as count as Jokero instead?'.

Personally, I'm going to be running My Ad Mech army using GK rules.....Draigo will be cool as my HQ choice..............

Lol I like the idea of him setting fire to nurgles garden. I have this image of him, grinning mischievously with a sliver zippo (with the =I= engraved on it of course) setting fire to a half dead tree, while a plague bearer has its back turned.