Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Avatrar - the point is this: the MoCA is what provides the save. He does NOT have MoT, as NOWHERE in his wargear is that listed.

PRove that he gets all 4 marks individually, and you have just proven he has a poisoned, ID causing 2D6 attack weapon. In direct contravention of his rules.

MoCA does not provide the save, where does it say that the save comes from MoCA? Nowhere! It says it comes from the MoT.

As for the daemon weapons, that's BS, it specifically says next to each Daemon Weapon "(Lords with the Mark of ______)". Is Abaddon a Chaos Lord? No, he is not, therefore he does not get the benefits of those daemon weapons.

Avatar 720 wrote: Is Abaddon a Chaos Lord? No, he is not, therefore he does not get the benefits of those daemon weapons.

Now I get it.

Apologies for responding with less attention to the RAW-silliness thread.

Editing to add:
Your point is no less valid for the silliness, unfortunately it is no more valid either.

GW has repeatedly shown that rule listed = rule allowance given.
See: DoM, Swarmlord, Deathleaper, Vehicle cover saves, anything GW has printed, etc.

The mark (singular) that Abaddon has is listed as combining the marks and their effects. Then describes what that means.
This does not change that they are describing A MARK.
Nor does it change that the "fluff" can be ignored only if you arbitrairily claim it as being fluff.

I say the bit you reference describing the Mark of Nurgle's effect on this new mark, the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, is fluff.
You say the bit that I reference describing the Mark of Chaos Ascendant as containing the other marks is fluff.
Daemon weapons make your assertion extra strange, especially because he has one.

If he has no Mark of Tzeentch, then he has no increased invulnerable to start with, and the "Because of the Mark of Tzeentch..." sentence is rendered obsolete due to the Mark of Tzeentch not being present.

This would mean that Abaddon has been played incorrectly for a good few years, and should have only ever had the 5+ invulnerable from his Terminator Armour, because MoCA does not specifically give him any save or save modifiers.

Otherwise, because of the passage in the MoCA about the Mark of Tzeentch giving the modifier and the sentence about how it works coupled with the years of playing him as having a 4+ invulnerable save with nothing to say otherwise, he has to have the MoT.

they should have spelled out the rules more clearly, like Archon the Everchosen's rules in the WoC book.

his rules were different from the actual marks and they were 100% specific about the effects.

he isn't given any of the marks, but has almost the same benifits.

Avatar - yet Typhus gets a poisoned force weapon. Gee, sounds like the lord of the black legion is probably a Chaos Lord, same as the lord of the host is a Chaos Lord

The MoCA has all 4 marks combined, one of those effects is to increase the save by 1. DOne.

Yet the effect of the MOT is there, but only the ability to increase his invun by one? Where does it state that's all the MOT does for abbadon? It only states that due to the mark, his invun is +1, meaning he has the mark with its full effects.

Back to what I stated before hand:

The rule for MOT states "Normally" not at the start of the game, how do we define normally? Rulebook says squat. Is normally the models base equipment? Is it looked at on a turn by turn basis? We don't know.

juraigamer wrote:

MoT in full, or in effect, will not grant the 5++ to any model that already has an invul save when the game starts

The rule sates "Normally" not at the start of the game, how do we define normally? Rulebook says squat.

The same way we define the myriad of other words GW uses in the codex; by using a dictionary. It's not an ideal method but as the BGB doesn't define many words it falls upon the reader to default to the english language and therefore the definitions found within an english dictionary.

[nawr-muh-lee]
–adverb
1. in a normal or regular way: The wound is healing normally.
2. according to rule, general custom, etc.; as a rule; ordinarily; usually.

The regular way to field Abaddon is with terminator armor granting a 5++ save.
The regular way to purchase Abaddon via codex for use in a game includes his 5++ terminator armor
-or to go as far as
According to the rule laid out in the codex, Abaddon is fielded at all times with a suit of terminator armor granting a 5++ save

To me that's a solid definition of normally and when referenced via MoCA it's clear that he gets the save increase but will not get the baseline MoTesque save should he lose his armor due to the Shield breaker round.

As for the other quandry, MoCA applies the rules found via each god's mark in the wargear section. The fact that the MoCA says he gets the MoTesque modifier from the mark of Tzeentch is fluff, it's just a means of showing the reader what powers the MoCA draws from and how they are applied. MoCA itself is a unique rule that gives 3 statline benefits and a save modifier that mirror each of the individual chaos marks; it is not an application of 4 seperate marks.

I have to agree with fox on this normal more than likely refers to the fact that he has no option to not have an invulnerable save. Therefore he should not get the extra 5++ because he normally does have a save but due to some very rare and uncommon ability he has had his terminator invuln removed. When he has had the termi invuln removed he still normally has an invuln, hi will just not function the rest of the game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Avatar - yet Typhus gets a poisoned force weapon. Gee, sounds like the lord of the black legion is probably a Chaos Lord, same as the lord of the host is a Chaos Lord

The MoCA has all 4 marks combined, one of those effects is to increase the save by 1. DOne.

Just because Typhus gets one does NOT mean Abaddon gets one, furthermore Typhus' was FAQed to include it whereas Abaddon's was not. If Typhus had to be FAQed, then he obviously was not counted as a Chaos Lord until then, and since Abaddon has not been FAQed, he is not a Chaos Lord and cannot obtain the daemon weapon affects associated with the marks he has.

MoCA is all 4 marks combined, but MoCA is not listed as giving the increased save, this is what I have trying to tell you! Tell me where you see the MoCA rule saying that it (the MoCA itself) gives any sort of save or save modifier, because the only line in that rule which mentions saves is where it says that it comes from the MoT.

FAQ /= errata.

Fluff /= Rules. Anything else?

here we play Abbaddon as just getting double his Str and the attacks from his Deamon weapon. and rerolls to wound from the Talon