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Just want to make sure I'm reading this right...

Abaddon and a squad of Chaos terminators are out of their transport. Vindicare Assassin shoots his Shield-breaker round at the unit, he hits, and wounds. Time to allocate the wound, the Vindicare's Deadshot ability let's me put the wound on Abaddon. Abaddon has now lost his invulnerable saves for the rest of the game, so unless the unit is in cover, Abaddon immediately takes a wound (AP1 on the rifle). I can then assault the unit with any squad of Grey Knights, and hit/wound him on 4+ (with HH), and he has no saves to keep him up.

I know most of this is pretty cut-and-dry as to how it works, the reason I bring it up is because I want to get clarification on Abaddon's Mark of the Chaos Ascendant. This increases the Invulnerable save granted from his terminator armor to 4++. This is a special rule, not a piece of wargear. Just double checking that this wouldn't somehow make his invulnerable save now come from special rules and not wargear and thus make him immune to the shield-breaker rounds.

This would apply to any model in terminator armor with a special rule (not wargear) that increases that save.

Clarify for us: Does it improve it by one, or does it replace it with a 4++?

There's a difference.

I'd say that if it removes his save afforded by the armour. so, if he has another 4++, he can still use that. if it just improves his armour, then he looses it altogether

That's a good question. Very similar to how Vindicare and Ghazkull's WAAAGH turn interact.

The answer is clearly that Abaddon either gets no save (Terminator Invul save becomes N/A, N/A+1 is still N/A) or he gets a 6++ save (Invul save becomes 0, 0+1 = 1, or 6++).

And in short, I don't know which is correct.

if it just says it improves the TDA's invuln by +1 then he has no Invuln.


it's similer to Nemisis Swords which improve your Invuln save by 1, but that requires you to have an invuln to improve.



Failbaddon has no invuln

Scipio Africanus wrote:Clarify for us: Does it improve it by one, or does it replace it with a 4++?

There's a difference.

I'd say that if it removes his save afforded by the armour. so, if he has another 4++, he can still use that. if it just improves his armour, then he looses it altogether

"Mark of Chaos Ascendant: [...][Abaddon] now bears a unique Mark that combines all of the gifts. Because of the Mark of Tzeentch, the invulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+.[...]"

then no more save

Actually...looking at the decription of the Marks themselves:

Mark of Tzeentch: Models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain +1 to their Invulnerable save (to a maximum of 2+). If given to a model that does not normally have an Invulnerable save, this Mark confers an Invulnerable save of 5+"

Now Marks in general are special rules (not wargear). So this brings the question does Abaddon's Mark truly count as having each individual Mark, or is that part just "fluff" and really he just gets +1 to his 5++ from terminator armour?

If the former, then shield-breaker would remove his terminator save, but then does Abaddon then get a 5++ from a having a Mark of Tzeentch? Or does he not get this because that is only given to models that "don't normally have an Invulnerable save" and he normally does, it's just now gone?

he doesn't have MoT

he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent which just improves his existing save.

Grey Templar wrote:he doesn't have MoT

he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent which just improves his existing save.

Which is what I believe. However the Rules for Mark of Chaos Ascendant says it combines all of the gifts, and the invulnerable save increase is "because of the Mark of Tzeentch". Which is why I'm questioning it.

it still doesn't actually give him the mark which is unfortunante.


Archon the Everchosen(fantesy counterpart to Abbadon) has a similer description, but his bonuses are different from the actual marks.

Sounds like he might just be able to have a 5+ Inv. Since the rules for Mark of Chaos Ascendant gives him all marks.

I know this a bit off at a tangent but what would happen for a KFF? The model that you hit can't have the KFF protection?

the KFF is a cover save.

Since the rules for the vindicares shield breaker weapon is plural not singular even if the mark did confer a bonus wouldnt he still lose both?

I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:Since the rules for the vindicares shield breaker weapon is plural not singular even if the mark did confer a bonus wouldnt he still lose both?

Grey Templar wrote:I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

The Marks are special rules. They are listed on the special rules page, and models that come with have them, lists them under special rules.

I know Abbadons mark is actually a special rule but based of the justification that his special rule is just all the marks(wich are listed under wargear), it doesnt seem like he would get to have an invuln one way or the other.

Grey Templar wrote:I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

that is a question....

FAQ where are you

Exergy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

that is a question....

FAQ where are you

kryhavok wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:Since the rules for the vindicares shield breaker weapon is plural not singular even if the mark did confer a bonus wouldnt he still lose both?

Grey Templar wrote:I suppose as the Mark is technically Wargear.

The Marks are special rules. They are listed on the special rules page, and models that come with have them, lists them under special rules.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I know Abbadons mark is actually a special rule but based of the justification that his special rule is just all the marks(wich are listed under wargear), it doesnt seem like he would get to have an invuln one way or the other.

does his special rule actually say "he has the MoT, MoK, MoN, and MoS"?


unless it actually says that, it's just fluff and will have no bearing on his having a base 5++

I'm pretty sure he loses his invul altogether. The Ascendant rule can't improve an invul that doesn't exist anymore, especially if it says " improves the save granted by the armor."

Grey Templar wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:I know Abbadons mark is actually a special rule but based of the justification that his special rule is just all the marks(wich are listed under wargear), it doesnt seem like he would get to have an invuln one way or the other.

does his special rule actually say "he has the MoT, MoK, MoN, and MoS"?


unless it actually says that, it's just fluff and will have no bearing on his having a base 5++

his rules in this edition dont, but the are very loose. He basically gets +1 attack, +1 inititive, +1 toughness from no where and they are included in his profile as increases over base. Then there is a small note that says mark of the accendant improves his armor save to 4++.

No, the vindicare takes away invulnerable saves from wargear. since the mark of chaos ascendant is wargear, he has no invul.

The mark of ascendant combines the effects of all marks into one. This means his has all 4 marks, meaning that if you remove his termi invun save, the mark of tzneech grants him a 5+.

juraigamer wrote:The mark of ascendant combines the effects of all marks into one. This means his has all 4 marks, meaning that if you remove his termi invun save, the mark of tzneech grants him a 5+.

...which is then promptly removed by the shield-breaker round. It doesn't remove 1 at a time you know...

The mark of the chaos ascendant isn't wargear, it's special rules.

juraigamer wrote:The mark of the chaos ascendant isn't wargear, it's special rules.

And specifically states that it upgrades the invulnerable save from his terminator armour. With that gone, there's nothing left to upgrade. As he doesn't have a mark of Tzeentch, he doesn't get an invulnerable save. Fluff=/= rules.

juraigamer wrote:The mark of ascendant combines the effects of all marks into one. This means his has all 4 marks, meaning that if you remove his termi invun save, the mark of tzneech grants him a 5+.

If it really counts has him having the actual MoT (which is debatable), the MoT would not give him a 5++. MoT says it only gives a 5++ to models that do not "normally" have an invulnerable save, not that it provides the 5++ if the model doesn't have or loses it's invulnerable. Abaddon normally has a 5++ from his terminator armor, so he only gets the first effect of improving it to 4++.

Because that's what the mark of tzeentch does in this case, as is normal with models that have an invulnerable save built in.

However the mark of tzeentch alone (which isn't removed due to the chaos ascendant mark being a special rule) on page 25 of the CSM codex states that a model that normally doesn't have an invun save, gains a 5+.

Now we are in the realm of FAQ, since while he normally has an invun, After being shot he doesn't. Since for the rest of the game he normally wouldn't have an invun save, he technically gets one.

But Abbadon doesn't have the MoT.


he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent(which, according to the fluff, is the mark of all the gods)

it doesn't say that he has the MoT.