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Because that is under the line about him having MoCA. Seriously, anymore times it needs repeating?

Probably alot since the special rule only states he has all four marks, yet none of them count as wargear since it's the special rule giving the benefits of said marks.

The bigger issue is how we decide if a model "normally doesn't have an invun save" Hell we don't even know how to determine that. Normally as per every turn? Normally as per each game? Start of game? Gahhhh....

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

The MoCA does not improve his save by one. The MOCA states that 'because of the MoT, his invulnerable save is imporved', nowhere is MoCA stated as giving him the improved invul, it states that this comes from MoT.

Which leads us to:
Abaddon has MoT

OR

Abaddon does not have MoT, but since the MoCA is not the one giving him the increased save, he will only ever have a 5+ invulnerable.

Avatar 720 wrote:

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

The MoCA does not improve his save by one. The MOCA states that 'because of the MoT, his invulnerable save is imporved', nowhere is MoCA stated as giving him the improved invul, it states that this comes from MoT.

Which leads us to:
Abaddon has MoT

OR

Abaddon does not have MoT, but since the MoCA is not the one giving him the increased save, he will only ever have a 5+ invulnerable.

Or: MoCA works like a MoT when it comes to improving his invuln. save.

How? It states that invulnerable save comes from the MoT, yet nowhere does it say that Abaddon has it and nor does it say that the MoCA replaces the MoT in providing the invul; MoCA is not the source of the increased save, the MoT is, it even says it in the rule.

Avatar 720 wrote:How? It states that invulnerable save comes from the MoT, yet nowhere does it say that Abaddon has it and nor does it say that the MoCA replaces the MoT in providing the invul; MoCA is not the source of the increased save, the MoT is, it even says it in the rule.

yup clearly has MoT

the shield penentrator might take away the invunerable from a MoT though.

well, the MoT would only give a +1 in Abbaddons case because he has an Invuln standard.

losing his Wargear's invuln doesn't mean the 5++ from MoT kicks in.

Exrergy - no, he odesnt. He has MoCA, whcih acts like MoT for improving invulnerable saves.

ANd we're back round again.

Doesnt matter - no matter how you spin it, once his inv save is gone, its gone.

Well I will say this again, just to clarify, all marks, no matter who has them, are special rules.. NOT WARGEAR lol.

2 things I've thought of,

1. Its pretty clear abaddon is alwas a chaos lord at one point, why no base 5++ GW?? I mean every peeon lord has the 1/3 protection from the warp constantly but heaven forbid abaddon ever wants to take his armor off, chaos' prodigal son will have no protection..

2. As a compromise I would probably say a 6+?
because really, its not going to make a difference and it is a grey area right now

It isnt a grey area.

Normally Abaddon has a 5++. As in, in every game he starts with a 5++, that is then increased to 4++ by the MoCA

This is then removed by the vindicare, and, as he normally has a 5++ save does not get a 5++, even if MoCA worked like MoT - which it doesnt in this respect.

So, no matter what - he has no Inv save once removed by the Vindicare.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exrergy - no, he odesnt. He has MoCA, whcih acts like MoT for improving invulnerable saves.

I don't see where you're getting this from, the MoCA does NOT act in place of the MoT. The invulnerable save is stated to come from the Mark of Tzeentch, the MoCA says this in its rule and it is completely irrefutable. Nowhere in the MoCA's rule does it say that the MoCA provides an inulnerable save, increases and invulnerable save or works like the Mark of Tzeentch, it goes out of its way to state that the Mark of Tzeentch itself does this, NOT the MoCA.

You are assuming that the MoCA inherits the rules of the Mark of Tzeentch when there is no evidence that it does, if it did, then why the need to talk about the Mark of Tzeentch in the first place?

Yet he doesnt HAVE the MoT, he has the MoCA.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet he doesnt HAVE the MoT, he has the MoCA.

Well if he doesn't HAVE the MoT, then he will never get the 4++ invulnerable save that the MoCA mentions, because that comes specifically from the MoT (NOT the MoCA) and he will only ever have a 5+ invul; the bit in the MoCA talking about the increased invul from the MoT is therefore rendered obsolete.

It's either that or he actually does have the MoT, and the bit talking about it in the MoCA suddenly becomes important and he gets the 4+ invul that everyone who has fielded Abaddon has been using.

MoCA gives the same effect as having the MoT without being/having MoT.

Though the point is moot when you consider Abaddon normally has an invulnerable save.

-Game starts

-MoCA is cross checked with Abaddon's wargear (does he normally have an invuln save? He normally has terminator armour granting a 5++ save) and improves the normally present save by 1.

-Game progresses until the Vindicare pops Abaddon's armour removing his invuln save.

-MoCA can be cross checked again and again but the same answer will always be present (does he normally have an invuln save? He normally wears terminator armour granting a 5++ save)

As no option exists for power-armoured or naked Abaddon he will never get the latent invuln save from MoCA as he normally has his terminator armour.
MoCA doesn't care if he later misplaces his armour as under normal circumstances he would be clad in 5++ goodness.

MoCA gives the same effect as having the MoT without being/having MoT.

Please state where you are seeing this.

MoCA specifically states that "Because of the Mark of Tzeentch, the invulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+"

MoCA does NOT increase the inuvlnerable save, Mark of Tzeentch does, this is printed in black and white and has been qutoed directly from the codex several times.

If MoCA provided it, it would say 'Because of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant...', but it does not, and nowhere does it state that MoCA provides any sort of save, increased or otherwise, nor does it state that MoCA takes the place of MoT.

Again, please state where you are getting the ideas that MoCA takes over the job of handing out the increased invul save or has the same effect as MoT, because i'm sat here with the codex on my lap reading and re-reading the rule and there is nothing in here about the MoCA replacing any marks or giving out their abilities in their stead. All I can see are assumptions.

Avatar 720 wrote:

MoCA gives the same effect as having the MoT without being/having MoT.

Please state where you are seeing this.

"now bears a unique Mark that combines all of the gifts"

Also the name of the Mark itself seemed to state that it is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

Okay, lets pretend that MoCA grants MoT.

Even so, how do you rationalize the whole "normally has an invul save" portion of the rule?

Until a special rule comes out that Specifically counters any given Mark, none of this matters.

Abaddon has Termie armor.
Termie Armor Grants a 5++.
Abaddon does not have the base 5++ that other lords enjoy.
Abaddon has a Mark that at least mimics, if not fully is the MoT.
Abaddon's termie invul Save is thus brought "up" to a 4++.
If a Shield Breaker round strikes Abaddon, he will be left with no invul Save.
MoT in full, or in effect, will not grant the 5++ to any model that already has an invul save when the game starts(The Mark does 1 OR the other) should that invul save be removed somehow in game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exegy - no, he does NOT have all 4 marks. He has, for the last time, MoCA, which *in fluff* is a bit like all 4, but in actuality isnt. This is one reason he doesnt have a poisoned, ID causing weapon rolling 2D6 additional attacks which also shoot in the shooting phase.

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

I now know that tonight when i play 40k tonight i'm going to play Abaddon and argue he gets all of those things. I'll pose that he has all the marks and has a demon weapon. I'll show the typhus FAQ about poisined weapons and mark of nurgle. Let's see if i can run that bs.

Or is that just wrong?

weather the MoCA mimics of actually gives the MoT, Abbaddon won't have any Invuln after a vindicare hits him so it's a moot point.

I'd take it as does the model start the game with an invulnerable save.
If yes then MoCA/MoT improves that save by 1.
If no then MoCA/MoT grants an invuln save.

You could even go as far as to have MoCA/MoT check the codex itself for the base abilities (no optionals) and if any grant an invuln save then that can be considered the norm for that model.

Abaddon has his terminator armour as a base choice, therefore it is normal for him to have an invulnerable save. Whether or not that save is later removed in some fashion does not revoke the fact that he normally has an invulnerable save.

As for whether MoCA is or is not MoT (or contains it in some way) the arguement is moot. MoT improves a normally present Invuln save by one or grants an invuln save if the model does not.

Abaddon (because that was the OP's example) normally has an invuln save, he comes with it by nature of purchasing him via his codex entry.
As there are no options for him to be purchased without his invulnerable save then it is a given that the norm for Abaddon is to have an invulnerable save.

kirsanth wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

MoCA gives the same effect as having the MoT without being/having MoT.

Please state where you are seeing this.

"now bears a unique Mark that combines all of the gifts"

Also the name of the Mark itself seemed to state that it is the Mark of Chaos Ascendant.

Fluff=/=rules. It also fails to state what 'gifts' are. If it had said "that combines all the marks" then fair enough, but it doesn't, there is nothing in the actual rules of the mark that indicates that the MoCA takes the place of any mark.

Please note that I do not believe this grants him an invul save after his first is removed, that's fine by me; he has termie armour so normally has an invul save that is then removed which is a perfectly rational argument; what I disagree with is people saying he does not have the MoT.

By the rules a model cannot have more than one mark.

Editing redundance.

kirsanth wrote:By the rules a model cannot have more than one mark.

Editing redundance.

Where is this said? Page 25 explains the marks but makes no mention of them being single use per model. Lords, princes and Sorcerers may only have 1 mark each, but they are seperate profiles and have no bearing on the rules for any other model.

The description of them. Of course Mr. A has only one mark also -- so every unit/model that can have a mark can have A mark.

/shrug

Avatar - find a rule, that isnt in the MoCA rules, that says he has MoT

SPecial rules, wargear, etc.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Avatar - find a rule, that isnt in the MoCA rules, that says he has MoT

SPecial rules, wargear, etc.

So you're basically saying this:

Prove that it says he has MoT, but you aren't allowed to use the actual proof.

What you're asking me to do is completely inane and nonsensical.

A better idea is this: prove that 'a unique mark' is not 'a mark' but rather 4 different marks.

The special rule is "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" not "Marks of Chaos Ascendant".

The fluff you discount is also the fluff that agrees with you by proving you wrong.

/boggle

Avatrar - the point is this: the MoCA is what provides the save. He does NOT have MoT, as NOWHERE in his wargear is that listed.

PRove that he gets all 4 marks individually, and you have just proven he has a poisoned, ID causing 2D6 attack weapon. In direct contravention of his rules.

How about we just call the GK codex shenanigans and move on?

MoT in full, or in effect, will not grant the 5++ to any model that already has an invul save when the game starts

The rule sates "Normally" not at the start of the game, how do we define normally? Rulebook says squat.