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Grey Templar wrote:But Abbadon doesn't have the MoT.


he has the Mark of Chaos Ascendent(which, according to the fluff, is the mark of all the gods)

it doesn't say that he has the MoT.

actaully it does
it doesn't say "he has mark of tzeench"
what it says is "because of mark of tzeench, his invulnerable is improved" therefore he must have mark of tzeench

Implication means nothing,

it doesn't give him the MoT.



if the MoCA said, Abbadon has all 4 marks. then it would be true, but its not.

Grey Templar wrote:


if the MoCA said, Abbadon has all 4 marks. then it would be true, but its not.

Page 46 CSM, Mark of Chaos ascendant: "He bears a unique mark that combines all the gifts" And then it goes on to list specific effects of each mark for clarity.

UNique mark /= MoT.

nosferatu1001 wrote:UNique mark /= MoT.

but it has the same effect as MoT. Therefore if he didnt have an armor save it would do the same thing MoT does, give him a 5++

I'd say that by RAW it could very easily be argued that he loses it.

RAI is another issue: it seems odd that Abaddon himself would lose his invulnerable save, but a regular Chaos Lord would not, because they have a 5+ invulnerable save listed as part of their special rules, not from wargear. It doesn't make sense to me.

But of course, fluff =! rules.

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:UNique mark /= MoT.

but it has the same effect as MoT. Therefore if he didnt have an armor save it would do the same thing MoT does, give him a 5++

it doesn't have the same effect.

MoT gives +1 to existing Invulns and a 5++ in the absense of an existing one.


MoCA just gives +1 to existing invuln.

Grey Templar wrote:

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:UNique mark /= MoT.

but it has the same effect as MoT. Therefore if he didnt have an armor save it would do the same thing MoT does, give him a 5++

it doesn't have the same effect.

MoT gives +1 to existing Invulns and a 5++ in the absense of an existing one.


MoCA just gives +1 to existing invuln.

It is even simpler than that; MoT gives a +1 to existing Invulnerable saves, OR a 5++ to models without an existing Invul; depending on to whom it was given.

Whether MoCA is rules-wise all Marks or not, does not matter, in this case it was given to a model with a pre-existing Invul. That invul was therefore increased by 1(by increased we mean of course the Numeric value was lowered); this is told to us by his rules. If said invul is removed, so too are the MoT(-like) benefits.

Mark of Chaos Ascendant:

"...Over the millenia Abaddon has melded the Marks of Chaos granted to him, and now bears a unique Mark that combines all of the gifts. Because of Mark of Tzeentch, the invulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+. The other benefits are included in his profile..."

It's quite hard to interpret. "Because of Mark of Tzeentch, the inulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+" Implies that he has the Mark of Tzeentch, for if he does not have it then he cannot get the increased save it provides, as the Mark of Chaos Ascendant does not specifically give it to him, it simply says that it is granted by the Mark of Tzeentch.

There is room to argue that he only has a 5+ Invul because the MoCA does not give him the increased save, instead it says that he has the Mark of Tzeentch which grants it; if you argue that he does not have the Mark of Tzeentch, then he only has a 5+ invul from the terminator at all times and the shot would remove this save.

It's a very difficult rule to work with.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

It is even simpler than that; MoT gives a +1 to existing Invulnerable saves, OR a 5++ to models without an existing Invul; depending on to whom it was given.

Whether MoCA is rules-wise all Marks or not, does not matter, in this case it was given to a model with a pre-existing Invul. That invul was therefore increased by 1(by increased we mean of course the Numeric value was lowered); this is told to us by his rules. If said invul is removed, so too are the MoT(-like) benefits.

typically you give marks to characters before you give them other wargear or at the very least at the same time unless the MoT was provided by an Icon.

actually thinking of an icon is helpful. Assuming Icons effected ICs.
if Abadon was in a unit with an Icon of Tzeench would he have a 3++ or a 4++. If MotA does not have MoT inside it, he has a 3++ if MotA does have MoT then he has a 4++. If a regular terminator in a unit with an Icon of Tzeench is shot by this kind of round then he would go from a 4++ to a 5++.

it would seem to be cumulative with an Icon.

assuming he actually doesn't have the MoT.

Icons Very Specifically deny the ability to ICs that join the unit.

Well, all excepting Chaos Glory.

Also A termie with the Icon of Tzneetch would lose all invulnerables, just like any other model with multiple invul saves from different wargear(The Sheild breaker round removes all invul saves not just any given 1)

The real Question is whether Marks of Chaos are Wargear or just some sort of upgrade to CSM ICs; A Lord in termie Armor with the MoT has 2 4++ saves, 1 Natural(then lowered via mark), and 1 from wargear(the Termie armor). Icons are Clearly Wargear, but basic marks... I am not entirely Sure. The Shieldbreaker round would remove a Regular termie lord+MoT's Termie armor granted 4++, but will it remove the quasi-natural 4++ from just the Mark(There is no doubt whatsoever that he would retain the natural 5++, even if the Bonus from the mark gets removed)?

Normal marks are wargear, however the mark of the chaos ascendant is a special rule that seeming provides the same effects as the marks combined into a simple special rule.

If the mark of chaos ascendant was listed as wargear, then no saves at all from vindicare, but since it's a special rule...

Marks of chaos, not icons, are listed under special rules for models that carry them base in their profile. This leads to marks being special rules, not wargear. Icons are undoubtedly wargear as of right now..

A lord, either in termie armor or in base power armor will always have a 4++ with a mark of tzeentch.

I would say abaddon should have a 5+, given to him by his mark of tzeentch that his entry states he has the benefits of.

I think he loses the save. MoCA seems to assume that he will always have an invul, so it says that his invul is increased. Remove said invul, nothing to increase, so nothing happens.

He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

nosferatu1001 wrote:He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

yes there is, MoCA has MoT, which will give a model without an invunerable save a 5++

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

yes there is, MoCA has MoT, which will give a model without an invunerable save a 5++

But he has an invulnerable save, which means all it does is increase it by 1. Besides, MoCA=/=MoT, as repeatedly pointed out.

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

yes there is, MoCA has MoT, which will give a model without an invunerable save a 5++

Assuming that he does has all the effects of MoT, he would not gain the 5++ as that bonus is only given to models who do not "normally have an invuln". Under normal circumstances Abaddon has an Invuln, so the only benefit he could gain from the MoT is to increase it by 1. MoT does not give the 5++ to any model with out invuln's, only to models that under normal circumstances do not have one.

This of course assumes MotA does include MoT, which only does in terms of fluff, not rules. As a special Rule MotA increases his armour's invuln to 4++ and gives cause for the raise in stats in his profile.

RAW either way, all Abaddon would get is his armour invuln increased to 4++, which is then lost by Shield-breaker.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Exergy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:He loses the save. He normally has an Inv, therefore ALL MoCA does is improve the save. When the shieldbreaker removes the terminator armour inv save you lose the 5++, and therefore lose the inv save.

There is NO WAY for MoCA to give abaddon a 5++ . None.

yes there is, MoCA has MoT, which will give a model without an invunerable save a 5++

But he has an invulnerable save, which means all it does is increase it by 1. Besides, MoCA=/=MoT, as repeatedly pointed out.

This.
MoT=/= MoCA,
and even if it was, MoT has improved his inv save by one, so you then cannot use the 5++ because he did have an inv before, he just doesnt after (and it would be stripped by the shield breaker round anyway)

Besides, MoCA=/=MoT, as repeatedly pointed out.

I'm going to repeat my post since it addressed this:

It's quite hard to interpret. "Because of Mark of Tzeentch, the inulnerable save provided by his armour is increased to 4+" Implies that he has the Mark of Tzeentch, for if he does not have it then he cannot get the increased save it provides, as the Mark of Chaos Ascendant does not specifically give it to him, it simply says that it is granted by the Mark of Tzeentch.

There is room to argue that he only has a 5+ Invul because the MoCA does not give him the increased save, instead it says that he has the Mark of Tzeentch which grants it; if you argue that he does not have the Mark of Tzeentch, then he only has a 5+ invul from the terminator at all times and the shot would remove this save.

Then paraphrase to:

It states that because of MoT, he has an increased invul. If he does not have MoT, then he would not have an increased invul as MoCA does not specifically give it to him, it states that it is given by MoT.

Either he has MoT, or he does not have MoT and will never actually have the 4+ invul stated by the MoCA because the MoCA isn't the rule giving it to him.

even IF the MoCA gives him the true MoT, he won't have an invuln after the vindicare shoots him.


this is because the effect of the MoT is applied at the beginning of the game. a model with an Invuln of its own has it increased by +1 or, if it has none at the time of the games beginning, a 5++. in Abaddon's case it becomes a 4+.

Ok after reading it over and over again, the MoCA grants the gifts of the 4 marks. It explains their effects (as standard) afterwards. This means the MoCA is just a special rule, no wargear involved (no extra marks inside)

Now because MoT does what it does, at what point do we determine if a model normally doesn't have an invun? At the start of the game? If for the rest of the game they don't? We don't really know.

Furthermore the MoT is applied all game long, not just a single effect in the beginning, otherwise it would cease to effect the model.

This just needs either more FAQ or people with vindicare assassins to stop trying to get around a 5+ invun provided by special rules.

even IF the MoCA gives him the true MoT, he won't have an invuln after the vindicare shoots him.

I'm not saying it will, i'm just arguing that he must have it to get the 4+ invul stated by the MoCA in the first place, because if he doesn't have it then he will only ever have a 5+ invul due to the MoCA not granting it to him.

It adds nothing else to him but i'm trying in part to settle the "does he or doesn't he have MoT?" issue.

Avatar 720 wrote:

even IF the MoCA gives him the true MoT, he won't have an invuln after the vindicare shoots him.

I'm not saying it will, i'm just arguing that he must have it to get the 4+ invul stated by the MoCA in the first place, because if he doesn't have it then he will only ever have a 5+ invul due to the MoCA not granting it to him.

It adds nothing else to him but i'm trying in part to settle the "does he or doesn't he have MoT?" issue.

he has MoT, MoCA gives him all 4 marks plus EW

Exergy wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

even IF the MoCA gives him the true MoT, he won't have an invuln after the vindicare shoots him.

I'm not saying it will, i'm just arguing that he must have it to get the 4+ invul stated by the MoCA in the first place, because if he doesn't have it then he will only ever have a 5+ invul due to the MoCA not granting it to him.

It adds nothing else to him but i'm trying in part to settle the "does he or doesn't he have MoT?" issue.

he has MoT, MoCA gives him all 4 marks plus EW

I know? I've been arguing that he has MoT?

Exegy - no, he does NOT have all 4 marks. He has, for the last time, MoCA, which *in fluff* is a bit like all 4, but in actuality isnt. This is one reason he doesnt have a poisoned, ID causing weapon rolling 2D6 additional attacks which also shoot in the shooting phase.

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

It's fully possible that they intended MoCA to differ from MoT, and wrote the rules differently as such. It makes sense that, even if he has all of the marks, melding them into one wouldn't change or diminish their original properties-- the marks symbolize very contradictory forces when compared to eachother.

IMO, he loses his saves. Even Abby can't have his cake and eat it too!

Whether MoCA gives the model MoT, or just functions with the same rules; He has an Invul Save per the Termie armor(not an inherent 5++ as with every other Chaos Lord); therefor since he has the Mark(granting the Same ability as MoT) and has an invul; his invul is increased, it will never give him the no-invul to start benefit of a flat 5++.

Abaddon wounded with a Shield breaker will be left with no invul save at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Exegy - no, he does NOT have all 4 marks. He has, for the last time, MoCA, which *in fluff* is a bit like all 4, but in actuality isnt. This is one reason he doesnt have a poisoned, ID causing weapon rolling 2D6 additional attacks which also shoot in the shooting phase.

He does not have MoT. He has MoCA, which improves his inv save by 1. WHen the vindicare hits and wounds, this save is entirely removed and is not replaced by a 5++, as he normally has an inv save.

his daemon weapon is different from other daemon weapons. I dont see how he doesnt have MoT, when it says "Because he has MoT his save is 1 better to 4++"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another thing
the vindy's shield breaker removes ++ saves from ITEMS of wargear, not just wargear. A mark my be wargear, but is it an item?