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mattyrm wrote: Half of what Melissa said is just made up in my eyes. The orc has an S value written in black and white, and without the charge they are S3, same as a guardsman.

Lone Orc Kommando wrecking a city on its own? How exactly? If a lone human SF trooper, with all of his training and intelligence and most importantly knowledge of how earth works, wouldnt be able to wreck a city on his own, how could an Orc? As soon as a riot van full of coppers turned up, he would be dead meat.

gak, seen worlds strongest man competition? Some normal unaugmented, 6 foot humans who merely train their bodies can bench 800lbs. Ryan Kennelly broke the 1000lb bench record. If you want to pick an exceptional Orc/SM/Human, you can find one.

But the "average orc boy" isn't an engine of destruction, and they frequently get their asses whipped on the table top when I deny them the charge and throw 30 guardsmen into them.

If you want to say an average orc is only as strong as a large human male, there are numerous ways to show this.

If you want to say that there are leet as feth and as awesome as SM, you can do that as well. And the ambiguity is deliberate on GWs part.

I think we can just leave this somewhat dorky argument as follows.

"Fluff is purposely ambiguous so nerds can make their own cool stories up"

Well without going into fluff, we can extrapolate from TT stuff.

Ork still have WS4, T4 and 2A if you want to play it with the TT stats... they also have a built in 6+ save (they do not have wargear to give this armor). You also cannot ignore furious charge, which is a real increase to an ork's power... your average human probably has WS2 S3 T3 (And honestly, a point could be made for having WS1! A lot of people have never gotten in a fight and don't even know how to throw punch without hurting themselvesc and even fewer people show any kind of skill with melee weaponry). If we base ourselves off the Conscript entry in in the IG codex, they also have LD 5.

This is not to say it is impossible for a single human to kill an ork (You'll need a 4 (or 5) to hit and a 5 to wound and the ork need to fail his save) - but it's a statistical abnormality.

Same goes for the random gun in the crowd... most civilian firearm would be S3 ap-, akin in power to a lasgun (And again, this is being generous). Most Civilian would have BS 2 or - more likely 1 (I have practiced martial sports before, but I have never shot a firearm, I cannot imagine myself being able to hit a moving target under a stressful situation). Dropping an ork with a handgun is looking pretty damn unlikely and will probably just attract his attention.

Baring a lucky hit, what you realistically need is a group of people to either attack and/or shot the beast as a unit... and that is not likely to happen with untrained normal people who are much more likely to panic than form a defense group.

The other thing you fail to consider is the psychological impact of the whole thing... it's one thing to have a body builder go on road rage and snap in a crowded place... it's a whole other thing to have a MONSTER do so. Even if the ork could be handled easily by the people gathered there, many of the people who would stand up and try and contain the bodybuilder would run away screaming upon seeing the ork (I have background in Judo and wrestling, I would most likely be able to help contain the roid freak... but there's no way in hell I'm going to try and grapple a monster with a gun and a roaring chain blade-choppa thing!). Hell, a single man with a gun taking dozens of people hostages has been seen countless time in history - people COULD gang up on him, but they don't (Quite often, even after the gun man started shooting)... what makes you believe people will gang up on the ork?

I hate to bring up school shootings as an example, but the idea of a lone armed mad man in a public space is pretty much the closest thing we have to this scenario... but those shooters were brought down either by their own hand or by police intervention in the majority of cases. And they were not 'peak level human male in their fighting prime' and were certainly nowhere as deadly as an ork. Remember that the current scenario is saying there is no police/military response... As grim as it is to think about it, how long would those shooting have lasted if they had been no such responses?

The other thing to understand is that the TT is a minimalistic/exponential system - it needs to be, because it's made to simulate mass combat. Think about it, Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon are heavy machine gun, the real version of those things can shoot hundreds of bullets per minute. We can assume that the firing rate will only increase has technology advance, but for the sake of simplicity, let's assume a Heavy Bolter has a 800rpm firing rate. This translate in the game has Heavy 3. The Assault Cannon, which for all intent and purpose is a minigun (some of which reach 3000rpm!) is only Heavy 4, even thought it represents more than 3 time the amount of bullets.

In short, the difference between 1 and 2, or 3 and 4 or 7 and 8 is pretty damn massive as far as a linear representation go. A 1 point increase in the TT represent a tremendous difference 'in real life' (This is backed up logically and by the fluff...). So the ork may not be much stronger than a male in peak condition (except when he charges - I don't know why you're ignoring the ork's tendency to have an adrenaline rush when rushing into battle - which again, against untrained human, he is likely to be doing... who the hell is going to charge an ork, honestly?), but he's much, much tougher. You're also not looking at anything else beside Str... your typical ork will be a flurry of blow and strike that would make anything short of a world class martial artist feel jealous at their speed and accuracy (WS4 and A2/3).


So to answer the original question... an ork could do quite a lot of damage if facing average joes. There would be a panic, people running away. The situation would escalated until he trapped people in a corner and enough of those people ganged up on him in self-defense. How long this would take depends on a lot of factor - How big is the area? How open is it? How big is the crowd? How many groups and of which size will the ork encounter and how frequently? With each group encountered, the likely-hood of encountering one that will defend itself increase, and with each group that defend itself, the likely-hood of one being big enough/lucky enough/aggressive enough to kill the ork also increases.

The other interesting thing to consider is what the ork will do if he 'runs out of target'. Assuming an open area (i.e. a City) where humans can flee indefinitely, the ork will eventually lose sight with any targets... he will keep looking, but odds are he'll get bored. What does a lonesome, bored ork do?

A human of current Earth is no match for an Ork. To think otherwise is silly. Ors are 6 foot tall when at ease. They are about 8 feet tall if they would simply stand up straight. Their skulls are insanely thick and they can regenerate almost any injury.
Orks always shed spores. They don't have to die first. And they breed relative to the need for more boyz. Even if an avearge man were to take a bat to an Ork head it wouldn't be enough. A wooden bat would shatter after a single strong blow that would only anger the Ork. An aluminium bat would warp after 3 blows and become useless. Most common knives including kitchen knives aren't long enought to reach any vital organs in the Ork and lacerations mean nothing to them. Even if you were able to crack an Orks skull open it still wouldn't matter. Ghaz held his own head together long enough to make it back to camp and ask Grotsnik for a new skull.

Let us not forget the power of the waaagh!!! Orks don't need ammo. If they think a gun will shoot, it will. If an ork thinks it can punch through an engine block of a Prius (Cuz itz puny)... it will. Of course this only really gets on a roll if more boyz are around.

Stats-wise I think too much is taken out of context. A space marine is far superior to a human. S4 marines are given this "super human strength" by the addition of power armour. Orks become S4 when there's something to kill in front of them. A motivated Ork is nearly unstoppable.

Most importantly the Emperor himself was nearly struck down by an Ork. It was Horus who saved Him.

Oh, and to answer the question about Orks becomeing bored and lonesome? They become over-weight and very drepressed.So much so that they loose the will to fight and become complacent.

Iracundus wrote:
Where is the evidence for this claim that all Guardsmen are given steroids? Can you quote and cite such evidence or are you waxing hyperbolic? There isn't any indication that this is a standard practice in the least, and certainly none in the 2nd edition story, where the Guardsman is just a standard hive ganger/hive worlder inducted into the Guard.

This also jumped at me...

Steroids were used during WWII to increase combat potential (Strength and aggressiveness) - in fact, the reason why the drug is used by athletes today is because of how effective it was at helping malnourished soldiers gain weight and improve performance - and it didn't do any hurt to the non-malnourished soldiers either. While they may not be any 'indication' that the IG uses combat drug, it's naive to think that they wouldn't when faced with the greatest horror of the galaxy when humanity was doing 38,000 years before when facing each other. It's not like the Imperium is the kind to really care about the possible health risk to its cannon fodder... and it's not like your average IG trooper is expected to live long enough to develop negative side effect.

Cryonicleech wrote:

Through sheer numbers the Ork would eventually go down. Also, I don't see how skin as tough as hard leather stops decent caliber bullets.

What we have to keep in mind is that a lot of the fluff written about all of the races in general is specifically designed to add a coolness factor to that race/faction.

According to Lexicanum, Ork bones are "thick, hard and durable, allowing them to sustain high velocity impacts without fracture or damage." Gee, that's so damn unspecific that if you interpreted it the wrong way, Orks couldn't ever die from bullets, or any high-velocity impact weapon for that matter.

3-5 Guardsmen could kill a single Ork boy with their lasguns, combining fire. I don't imagine that the Lasgun far exceeds the highest-caliber weapons of today, if it even does, which is unlikely. More importantly, Guardsmen have killed Orks with Bayonets. While Baseball bats won't do the trick, a group of Humans with knives could.

Saying it's impossible for a group of Humans to kill and Ork with knives is silly. It happens in the background all the time.

That's my point. I wil continue to defend humanity in this argument!

As I said, its a silly thing to argue about, the fluff is ambiguious, and I can see where Melissa et al are coming from because I have read the Ork codex and the amusingly written bits about how leathery and gnarled the Orks skin is, and how they are heavily muscled and such obviously paints them as tough bastards.

Again, Its down to your own interpretation, and I find it comical that we nerds argue about such things, but my interpretation is mine because Im a combat soldier, and I know men and I know weapons, in my eyes, people have grossly over estimated a lone Orks ability. YMMV, that's fine.

I mean, the 9mm round thing is just plain silly. You can kill an elephant with a 9mm. I have carried out bullet penetration tests during days on the range, where we fire numerous weapons into sand and board packed boxes to see how far in they can travel.

Contrary to popular belief, the reason we use an "elephant gun" is not because bullets bounce off their leathery hides, its because they wouldnt die swiftly if you emtied a magazine into them. (As per the buffalo story)

But they would die. Bullets travel at such a velocity that they penetrate flesh easily. See the cops hiding behind the car doors in movies? Doesnt work. 9mm slugs can penetrate them, and there are numerous types of ammo too, I suppose this is where ambiguity can come in. But it sounds nerdy to argue trivialities so I will stop there.

The point is, Orks leathery skin, is it thicker than an elephants? Is it thicker than a Rhino? You can kill both of them with a 9mm. Sure it wont be painless, but the fether will die if you empty a clip into its guts.

And I see it the same way with beating one to death.

Why cant you beat one to death? Numbers are the most important factor. Pick me the biggest strongest man on earth, and he will die if 4 or 5 men attack him with clubs. How strong is an average ork? Ten times stronger than the biggest, tallest strongest man? Not that strong surely?

An Ork attacked by strong determined men, will die. Yes they are tougher and stronger than humans, would a silverback gorilla be a good analogy? Me and a decent group of men could kill one of those with golf clubs. Granted It would be suicide on my own.. but we have always said you would need a small group to take an Ork down.

Guardsmen can and do kill them in melee.

So, I can see where your coming from, your average Ork is far stronger, tougher, and more resilient than a human male. But it simply isnt logical to suggest that we modern day 'umies couldn't sort our gak out and deal with a lone Ork.

If you are a combat ready soldier, you safly aren't 'an average joe' anymore... you're a combat ready soldier . It's kinda odd to say, but including yourself and your buddies in the equation kinda defeat the purpose .

And oh, what's with the 'it feel nerdy thing' - you're on a Warhammer 40k forum... arguing about the fighting prowess of imaginary green man won't really increase your geekitude further... it's already all the way up there like the rest of us

Tarkand wrote:If you are a combat ready soldier, you safly aren't 'an average joe' anymore... you're a combat ready soldier . It's kinda odd to say, but including yourself and your buddies in the equation kinda defeat the purpose .

And oh, what's with the 'it feel nerdy thing' - you're on a Warhammer 40k forum... arguing about the fighting prowess of imaginary green man won't really increase your geekitude further... it's already all the way up there like the rest of us

Point taken, I mean, Im aware im a nerd as well... I just mean that starting to say things like "Oh yeah, well, you just said 9mm... you didnt say 9mm AP!" or something was just.. you know, how nerd arguments get that way and your just being pedantic.

But yeah, if ar orc is roughly twice as strong and tough as me. I reckon me and 5 of my mates could knack him. Id just push my dumbest friend into its face and then hack at its neck with my samurai sword while it rips his face off.

mattyrm wrote:
The point is, Orks leathery skin, is it thicker than an elephants? Is it thicker than a Rhino? You can kill both of them with a 9mm. Sure it wont be painless, but the fether will die if you empty a clip into its guts.

And I see it the same way with beating one to death.

Why cant you beat one to death? Numbers are the most important factor. Pick me the biggest strongest man on earth, and he will die if 4 or 5 men attack him with clubs. How strong is an average ork? Ten times stronger than the biggest, tallest strongest man? Not that strong surely?

See the problem you are forgetting is that ork physiology is nothing like mammal physiology. Shoot a human just about anywhere and they will bleed out and die in an hour tops. Orks don't bleed out. Orks also seem to be bale to survive pretty well with organ failure. (if they really even have what we call organs) The inside of an ork is basically this gooey mostly plant / alge / fungus based soup. I have no doubt in my mind a 9mm will penetrate the skin of an ork. I just have doubts about it doing any significant damage. Of note though with regards to a head shot, that should work, but no real indication is given of just how insanely tough their skulls are so i don't know if small arms fire would penetrate.

With regards to a beating. Orks are practically immune to being punched / beaten. Nobs, who we all agree are demonically strong, regularly give orders to the boys by hitting them over the head, often with a weapon. Orks hit each other, with their choppas, as a means of solving arguments like which god is mork and which is gork. Similarly given their very gooey insides and extremely thick muscles, I doubt most hits would accomplish much.

Knives could work. Orks are not invincible. They have vulnerable parts, the eyes and the throat could probably do some damage. However, orks are innately good at close combat (they learn how to fight their whole lives just by living in ork society) unskilled people with knives wouldn't come close, they would be batted aside like rag-dolls.. Numbers would bring an ork down with weight and then a final blow could be delivered, but humans are pretty cowardly, and well, no one wants to be part of the big group that will probably die just to tie the ork up for someone to hack its head off.

I doubt an ork would level a city. It would kill whatever targets it found and cause a hell of a mess, but for the most part buildings and such would remain standing. However, as long as humans are not forced to engage it, it will continue its rampage. As someone stated earlier, each time humans are forced to confront it as a group, the chance of them getting lucky and somehow killing it increases.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
With regards to a beating. Orks are practically immune to being punched / beaten. Nobs, who we all agree are demonically strong, regularly give orders to the boys by hitting them over the head, often with a weapon. Orks hit each other, with their choppas, as a means of solving arguments like which god is mork and which is gork. Similarly given their very gooey insides and extremely thick muscles, I doubt most hits would accomplish much.

People in this thread are really waxing hyperbolic and making claims with little cited and quoted evidence. See below:

He snapped off a shot at the charging Ork, catching it in the arm. It ignored the wound as if it felt no pain. Probably too stupid Wulf thought sourly, as he ducked the sweep of the axe's enormous blade, and caught the Ork a meaty blow on the ribs. The Ork just laughed. A second guardsman threw himself forward. The Ork blocked his lasrifle and sent him sprawling backwards, entrails erupting through a massive gash in his stomach. Wulf took the opportunity to bludgeon it on the head. The Ork groaned and went down.

p. 29, 2nd edition Wargear book

No heads are being blown off by the lasgun. Yes the Ork ignores the wound, and yes it disembowels another Guardsman. However, it does get bludgeoned down with a lasgun by an ordinary unaugmented Guardsman. Again, to reiterate: a rifle equivalent carried by a normal unaugmented human (those claiming there are steroids or other enhancing agents need to back up their claims with proof, not just wishful thinking or made up fan fiction. If you make a claim, it is your responsibility to back it up). We have a ballpark range of weights for any reasonable rifle weapon meant for the average human to carry. The unaugmented average human is not radically different from the average unaugmented human of today. Any rifle has to still be of reasonable weight so we know it cannoy be ludicrously dense. Even if the Ork were merely unconscious instead of dead, it was incapacitated and an opponent would have been able to finish the job. The Ork shrugged off damage or blows to non-vital parts of the body, but its head remains a relative weak point, with potentially vulnerable eyes and a brain that is still susceptible to heavy blows.

Those claiming Orks are some kind of near invincible killing machine are overstating it. An average Ork (not a Nob or Warboss) dropped into a mob or riot situation (which is what the OP said, not some sleepy suburb), might cause bloody havoc but would eventually be brought down by numbers or improvised weapons. If a rifle club to the head is capable of doing the job, then so can bats, cinderblocks, crowbars, etc... The conditions set by the OP gave only 60 rounds for its slugga so at maximum it could shoot 60 people, but no Ork is that accurate. Say BS2, so 1/3 hit, so 20 rounds hit. But then no Ork is going to be so disciplined as to snap off just 1 shot per enemy. Some will be hit with multiple shots, so the actual killed by its gun will be significant but not massive.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Abnett's a good writer, but I don't trust his portrayal of Space Marines, not when he has bolter rounds going through the chestplate of Power Armour as though it were paper.

And you are attacking others when they contradict other fluff.....really bad taste you have there...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeffDred wrote:A human of current Earth is no match for an Ork.

This. Unless you give him an M-4 Carbine he isn't

DeffDred wrote:A human of current Earth is no match for an Ork. To think otherwise is silly. Ors are 6 foot tall when at ease. They are about 8 feet tall if they would simply stand up straight. Their skulls are insanely thick and they can regenerate almost any injury.

Yeah but mate, has ANYONE said they are a match!?

Of course not! They are clearly stronger and more durable than 'umies.

My side is simply saying "one ork cant level a city because a large mob of men would kill it" or "How could it level a city with its fists and feet" not "My mother could fight an ork"

Many people are just saying that ork fanbois are overstating one lone Orks power. A big mob of people with cricket bats could bludgeon an Ork to death if they had the motivation, because their bones can break, they can bleed, and they aren't bulletproof.

Not that anyone would want to fight an Ork. But its all about the power those meaty fists can contain.

The will to fight is the most important factor. Sure the Ork would kill lone humans, but an enraged mob could kill one lone ork. gak, if they got lucky, and average family could do it. Maybe the thing would break into a house, and because the children are present, the parents wouldn't do the sensible thing (flee), a cornered mother will fight anything to save her offspring. Maybe the orc would snap the fathers neck, but the mother retrieves that double barreled shot gun from the bedroom and blasts it in the head from 5 yards. Thats going to ruin its day no matter how tough it is.

We could electrocute it, bomb it, stab it, blow it up.. these things do actually work on orks. The ork might be stupid enough to wander onto the freeway and get killed by accident!

My point was that Orks are strong and tough. Stronger and tougher than men, but not anything like invincible. And we are smarter and more streetwise, plus there are literally millions of us! How people think one could go on a rampage in a modern city and not kill more than 10-30 people is beyond me because there are millions of humans and millions of ways to kill it, we can use all sorts of tools, be they power tools, actual melee weapons, firearms, vehicles.

Someone would find a way to do it, and if it was in my town, Id do it myself by jumping into my truck, buckling up, hoping the airbag still works and mashing into it at 60 mph.

mattyrm wrote:
My side is simply saying "one ork cant level a city because a large mob of men would kill it"

Quite rights:

Cryonicleech wrote:Orks? Sneaking around Eldar?

I know I'll get flak for this, but in DoW2, the Kommando Nob is the best infiltrator in the game-- better than inquisition, eldar, tyranids, etc., as for him, sneaking about does not drain energy.

And Games Workshop okayed this.

Kommandos, especially Kommando Nobs, are unbelievably sneaky. In the literal sense of the term unbelievably.

Melissia wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:Orks? Sneaking around Eldar?

I know I'll get flak for this, but in DoW2, the Kommando Nob is the best infiltrator in the game-- better than inquisition, eldar, tyranids, etc., as for him, sneaking about does not drain energy.

And Games Workshop okayed this.

Kommandos, especially Kommando Nobs, are unbelievably sneaky. In the literal sense of the term unbelievably.

What?

That's... terrible. So we can use DoW 2, but not Table Top? Both of which are abstractions?

They okayed S3 Orks, so why not? Kommandos are sneaky, but they're Orks first and foremost. Their idea of sneaky camouflage is a bunch of colors OTHER than green painted across their body, be it dark red, blue, etc. Plus, Orks don't have "stealth" technology, that's not propper. The infiltrating mechanic represents the infiltration rule in 40k, though it's quite an abstraction.

I might as well use Space Marine to reference that ALL Ultramarines are resistant to the Warp, because Titus is and GW okayed it.

Cryonicleech wrote:
What?

That's... terrible. So we can use DoW 2, but not Table Top? Both of which are abstractions?

They okayed S3 Orks, so why not? Kommandos are sneaky, but they're Orks first and foremost. Their idea of sneaky camouflage is a bunch of colors OTHER than green painted across their body, be it dark red, blue, etc. Plus, Orks don't have "stealth" technology, that's not propper. The infiltrating mechanic represents the infiltration rule in 40k, though it's quite an abstraction.

I might as well use Space Marine to reference that ALL Ultramarines are resistant to the Warp, because Titus is and GW okayed it.

Well in all fairness, the fluff regarding boss snickrot implies that they are not just good at sneaking they are downright scary. However, He is an exceptional case. I admit that orks sneaking past eldar to be a bit of a stretch (those pointy ears must be good for something.) but I don't doubt their ability to sneak past most other races.
It should be noted though that despite snickrot being exceptional at sneaking and infiltration. They do say in the book that ork camouflage is pretty much, just being less glaringly bright colored and obvious. However, that comment is in the clans section so it might not refer entirely to the abilities of Kommandos in particular.<speculation alert> The Orks ability to warp reality to fit what they believe might be what makes them invisible to others despite being obviously visible in other circumstances.

Cryonicleech wrote:That's... terrible. So we can use DoW 2, but not Table Top? Both of which are abstractions?

Did I say that? No? Good, I'm glad you agree that I did not.

I just gave an example of Orks sneaking past Eldar. But if you want to use tabletop... guess what? Orks can infiltrate against Eldar armies.

Melissia wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:That's... terrible. So we can use DoW 2, but not Table Top? Both of which are abstractions?

Did I say that? No? Good, I'm glad you agree that I did not.

I just gave an example of Orks sneaking past Eldar. But if you want to use tabletop... guess what? Orks can infiltrate against Eldar armies.

Sorry, should have specified that specific part wasn't meant towards you. As for Orks sneaking past Eldar, I was expecting a fluff reference, such as a novel or book, etc. Sure Orks can infiltrate against Eldar armies, anybody can. The Infiltrate rule has almost no chance for failure, so it makes a poor argument, seeing as any unit with infiltrate will always be able to sneak around anything.

It's not so much that the Kommandos are sneakier than Eldar, it's that the Kommandos are sneaky at all. It actually confers a huge advantage, because in addition to the 'you can't see me' aspects of camoflage and sneakiness, anyone that does see you doesn't believe what they're seeing.

Right, sort of like the tales of commissars executing soldiers who reported sneaking Orks because "Orks don't sneak around!".

Melissia wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:That's... terrible. So we can use DoW 2, but not Table Top? Both of which are abstractions?

Did I say that? No? Good, I'm glad you agree that I did not.

I just gave an example of Orks sneaking past Eldar. But if you want to use tabletop... guess what? Orks can infiltrate against Eldar armies.

First of all, the best infiltrator in DoW2 isn't the Knob. Previous to 3.1.7.1, it was the lictor alpha, who couldn't be detected by proximity (this got nerfed, so infiltration units are now all in line). Also, you can't you DoW2/Tabletop statistics to justify fluff. By that logic, an ig company commander can take 3 times the punishment that an ork boy can (3w vs. 1), an ork boy is as strong as a human (both s3) etc. Game balance comes before fluff. I would agree that the intent of special rules is fluff though; e.g. And They Shall Know No Fear represented how suicidally courageous Space Marines are.

Black Knight wrote:Previous to 3.1.7.1, it was the lictor alpha, who couldn't be detected by proximity (this got nerfed, so infiltration units are now all in line)

Exactly, and now the Kommando Nob is better because he infiltrates without losing energy..

It all depends.

If this is in Codex: Orks, the boy kills everyone until we have to nuke our own city, then his spores kill the rest of the planet.

If this is in Codex: Average Joe, the Orks kill a few people (maybe 5 or 6) until an average "Every day Hero!" rallies everyone and they defeat it with fire houses, sports equipment, pluck and the national anthem.

Also, you can't you DoW2/Tabletop statistics to justify fluff.

"It's all canon... and none of it is."

This is an interesting question. I immediately think of how my own neighborhood would cope with the sudden arrival of an average ork boy. I'd like to think that even in suburban Utah the ork boy would go down pretty quickly. Enough guns would be fired at it that it wouldn't stand a chance. It'd do quite a bit a damage before it got every ones attention, of course, but I think we could handle it. Obviously you wouldn't want to walk up to it and challenge it to a wrestling match. Just keep shooting it till it stops moving.

Meanwhile it's shooting back, and charging at you with a meat cleaver the size of Texas.

It's easy to claim you'd keep shooting in that situation, but how many people can honestly say that in the face of a seemingly invincible green monster wielding weapons that look like they could tear you apart in one blow as easily as if they were kitchen knives and screaming a bone-shattering warcry... that they'd stand their ground?

I could see parents and lovers doing it to protect their loved ones. Usually, not always. But the average gangbanger or teenagd punk, or hell, the average guy by himself walking down the sidewalk... would probably scatter.

Melissia wrote:

Black Knight wrote:Previous to 3.1.7.1, it was the lictor alpha, who couldn't be detected by proximity (this got nerfed, so infiltration units are now all in line)

Exactly, and now the Kommando Nob is better because he infiltrates without losing energy..

Unless you know of some esoteric glitch/bug to abuse, the knob has regular infiltrate. His infiltrate is just as good as everyone elses (drains 1 energy/sec). If you do know about said esoteric bug, then please report it.

Regardless, my point still stands that you can't use game statistics/balance to judge fluff, because by that logic a Space Marine can solo 6 nobs and a ton of ork boyz (when you have to enter drogan's facility, and you're attacked by a large wave of orks, it's rather ez to just kill all of them) with a chainsword, bolter, and grenades.

Black Knight wrote:Unless you know of some esoteric glitch/bug to abuse, the knob has regular infiltrate. His infiltrate is just as good as everyone elses (drains 1 energy/sec). If you do know about said esoteric bug, then please report it.

I know a feature.

Perhaps you should look at his wargear list.

Melissia wrote:

Black Knight wrote:Unless you know of some esoteric glitch/bug to abuse, the knob has regular infiltrate. His infiltrate is just as good as everyone elses (drains 1 energy/sec). If you do know about said esoteric bug, then please report it.

I know a feature.

Perhaps you should look at his wargear list.

Wat. I thought you meant he had that by default. How does that argument make any sense if he can't purchase it by default, considering that things like lictors and what not can get way better stealth based abilities (flesh hooks and what not). Especially considering that improved camouflage is passed up 99% of the time anyway.

But the larger point is that it's game balance, so it can't determine fluff.

Black Knight wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Black Knight wrote:Unless you know of some esoteric glitch/bug to abuse, the knob has regular infiltrate. His infiltrate is just as good as everyone elses (drains 1 energy/sec). If you do know about said esoteric bug, then please report it.

I know a feature.

Perhaps you should look at his wargear list.

Wat. I thought you meant he had that by default. How does that argument make any sense if he can't purchase it by default, considering that things like lictors and what not can get way better stealth based abilities (flesh hooks and what not).

And the Ork has mines and other things as well. Different isn't better-- but the Ork still has better infiltration, even if it is a ranged focused unit (for some reason...).

Melissia wrote:

Black Knight wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Black Knight wrote:Unless you know of some esoteric glitch/bug to abuse, the knob has regular infiltrate. His infiltrate is just as good as everyone elses (drains 1 energy/sec). If you do know about said esoteric bug, then please report it.

I know a feature.

Perhaps you should look at his wargear list.

Wat. I thought you meant he had that by default. How does that argument make any sense if he can't purchase it by default, considering that things like lictors and what not can get way better stealth based abilities (flesh hooks and what not).

And the Ork has mines and other things as well. Different isn't better-- but the Ork still has better infiltration, even if it is a ranged focused unit (for some reason...).

He doesn't... the best infiltration is lictor alpha hands down, no question. Even at a mediocre level of play, the lictor is as giant pain in the ass. I'm certain that mines are on the mek boy. Knob does NOT have anything of the sort Knob infiltration is almost a gimick. It's nice and all, but the real power of knob comes from his speshul shoota which is w/o question overpowered. This is balanced because orks have terrible av and will get sodomized by a quick vehicle.

But again, that's all irrelevant. The point is that in a game, stuff has to be balanced, so unit statistics don't reflect their power in fluff.
With this in mind, is there any fluff of orks sneaking past eldar?

If we're talking about Dawn of War abilities...

Eldar Ranger can both move faster, regenerate health, and go without energy drain while infiltrated after Wargear upgrades.