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Void__Dragon wrote:That was just illustrating that Ork Boys being "stronger than humans" doesn't even begin to prove they're nearly as strong as a Space Marine. Which was my point the entire time.

And yet, they are. Crushing human skulls in their hand, cleaving through power armor with a relatively dull blade (in previous editions, the choppa actually reduced armor save value for this reason), wielding normally vehicle-mounted heavy machineguns unassisted while moving at full speed? Sounds quite similar, doesn't it?

Melissia wrote:And yet, they are. Crushing human skulls in their hand, cleaving through power armor with a relatively dull blade (in previous editions, the choppa actually reduced armor save value for this reason), wielding normally vehicle-mounted heavy machineguns unassisted while moving at full speed? Sounds quite similar, doesn't it?

I'm not disputing Orks are strong, and as I said, would be nearly as strong as a Marine, just not quite as strong. But they're probably the closest to them in terms of things weaker than Marines are.

A Marine can crack and break through power armour with their bare hands, but beyond that, the only source to ever compare the two that I can recall, Fulgrim, refers to Boys as "almost as strong as a Marine," while noting a Nob is stronger. Which fits.

Void__Dragon wrote:
A Marine can crack and break through power armour with their bare hands, but beyond that, the only source to ever compare the two that I can recall, Fulgrim, refers to Boys as "almost as strong as a Marine," while noting a Nob is stronger. Which fits.

Given that orks regularly manage to cleave open space marine power armor with blunt tools implies they are pretty much as strong as a space marine. I doubt they are stronger, and the space marine is by far the better trained fighter, but in blunt brute strength, I would say they are about equal. (Ignoring the strength assisting nature of power armor)

For all the people who mention guns being prolific in the USA, please bear in mind that normal small arms fire from a small number of people will likely have little effect. A small mob of gangers would most likely be cut down by the ork after it gets enraged by the splattering of fire. Especially when one takes into account that most civilian firearm owners (especially in places like the USA) have little to no training to use that weapon. Also, as stated by the OP the military is for some reason not intervening. A regular hunter like you would find in USA backwater towns, would probably be able to deal with the Ork quite effectively. He would have a powerful rifle and be experienced in its use. Similarly he would be more calm and less inclined to panic. In the suburbs where people live idealistic lives and have 2.5 kids. The ork will probably kill whoever tries to shoot it. Too few people in suburban areas to bring weight against the ork and most who own firearms probably don't know how to use them, chances are their gun will misfire from lack of maintenance. In an urban area, you can get weight of people together.

With regards to mob rule, that is an interesting point. When orks generally take a city they slaughter and enslave the civilians without any trouble, but of course there are the others to back it up. Alone, I expect its first reaction to be violence as would fit their psyche, but I expect it to turn and run at the first serious injury it gets. (I don't think 9mm would count as serious injury personally. The way their blood apparently clots would make such wounds almost meaningless. However, lots of 9mm rounds over a short time from say a sub-machine gun would probably do the trick.)

Hell, in Dark Heresy / Rogue Trader / Deathwatch, Orks can absorb most of the damage from lasguns/autoguns with no effect. Toughness 40 bare minimum, so a toughness bonus of 8 with unnatural toughness x2. Armor value varies, but 3 or 4 is normal (Flak armor is five), but it's rounded down in half because it's primitve armor against non-primitive damage.

Long story short: Lasguns/autoguns do 1d10+3 or so damage, about ten of which is utterly ignored by the Ork. With the ability to take 20 points of damage or so per Ork, it's not easy to kill them with lasguns...

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:With regards to mob rule, that is an interesting point. When orks generally take a city they slaughter and enslave the civilians without any trouble, but of course there are the others to back it up. Alone, I expect its first reaction to be violence as would fit their psyche, but I expect it to turn and run at the first serious injury it gets. (I don't think 9mm would count as serious injury personally. The way their blood apparently clots would make such wounds almost meaningless. However, lots of 9mm rounds over a short time from say a sub-machine gun would probably do the trick.)

Heh, I was thinking about that too. However, orks are still LD:7. That's a severe disadvantage compared to "Inhuman fiend of the warp" LD:10, and one step short of "Indoctrinated killing machine" LD:8, but still places orks in "Well trained, disciplined soldier" territory. A lone ork may still be able to hold his ground against reasonable opposition, and considering that in the 41st millenium "reasonable opposition" means bolters and lasguns, I'm inclined to think that an ork may see our modern, SMG-toting cops as mere grots.

On a sidenote, this conversation could potentially spark many other "vs." threads like, say, "Daemonette vs. swingers' club" or "How many episodes of Jersey Shore can a Sister of Battle endure before losing her faith in humanity, the Emperor, and pretty much everything". Can't say I'm not waiting for these to appear, so I can merrily jump into the fray. Ahhh, feels good to be back on dakka.

fine then... we have one more advantage...

Nuclear weapons...

BOOM!

Orks likely do too

It's their kind of thing

A bomb that not only kills your enemy, it also makes the place unlivable for ages afterwards...


Of course since we are talking about one ork wandering the UK in the OP IIRC Nuking it may be a touch much

Half of what Melissa said is just made up in my eyes. The orc has an S value written in black and white, and without the charge they are S3, same as a guardsman.

Lone Orc Kommando wrecking a city on its own? How exactly? If a lone human SF trooper, with all of his training and intelligence and most importantly knowledge of how earth works, wouldnt be able to wreck a city on his own, how could an Orc? As soon as a riot van full of coppers turned up, he would be dead meat.

gak, seen worlds strongest man competition? Some normal unaugmented, 6 foot humans who merely train their bodies can bench 800lbs. Ryan Kennelly broke the 1000lb bench record. If you want to pick an exceptional Orc/SM/Human, you can find one.

But the "average orc boy" isn't an engine of destruction, and they frequently get their asses whipped on the table top when I deny them the charge and throw 30 guardsmen into them.

If you want to say an average orc is only as strong as a large human male, there are numerous ways to show this.

If you want to say that there are leet as feth and as awesome as SM, you can do that as well. And the ambiguity is deliberate on GWs part.

I think we can just leave this somewhat dorky argument as follows.

"Fluff is purposely ambiguous so nerds can make their own cool stories up"

mattyrm wrote: Half of what Melissa said is just made up in my eyes. The orc has an S value written in black and white, and without the charge they are S3, same as a guardsman.

Lone Orc Kommando wrecking a city on its own? How exactly? If a lone human SF trooper, with all of his training and intelligence and most importantly knowledge of how earth works, wouldnt be able to wreck a city on his own, how could an Orc? As soon as a riot van full of coppers turned up, he would be dead meat.

gak, seen worlds strongest man competition? Some normal unaugmented, 6 foot humans who merely train their bodies can bench 800lbs. Ryan Kennelly broke the 1000lb bench record. If you want to pick an exceptional Orc/SM/Human, you can find one.

But the "average orc boy" isn't an engine of destruction, and they frequently get their asses whipped on the table top when I deny them the charge and throw 30 guardsmen into them.

If you want to say an average orc is only as strong as a large human male, there are numerous ways to show this.

If you want to say that there are leet as feth and as awesome as SM, you can do that as well. And the ambiguity is deliberate on GWs part.

I think we can just leave this somewhat dorky argument as follows.

"Fluff is purposely ambiguous so nerds can make their own cool stories up"

Sorry but rules =/= fluff.

Rules have to deal with balance and a gakky 10 point system, it often doesn't properly reflect the fluff. Seeing that this part of the forum is about the fluff, and not rules, your arguments are invalid.

Soladrin wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Half of what Melissa said is just made up in my eyes. The orc has an S value written in black and white, and without the charge they are S3, same as a guardsman.

Lone Orc Kommando wrecking a city on its own? How exactly? If a lone human SF trooper, with all of his training and intelligence and most importantly knowledge of how earth works, wouldnt be able to wreck a city on his own, how could an Orc? As soon as a riot van full of coppers turned up, he would be dead meat.

gak, seen worlds strongest man competition? Some normal unaugmented, 6 foot humans who merely train their bodies can bench 800lbs. Ryan Kennelly broke the 1000lb bench record. If you want to pick an exceptional Orc/SM/Human, you can find one.

But the "average orc boy" isn't an engine of destruction, and they frequently get their asses whipped on the table top when I deny them the charge and throw 30 guardsmen into them.

If you want to say an average orc is only as strong as a large human male, there are numerous ways to show this.

If you want to say that there are leet as feth and as awesome as SM, you can do that as well. And the ambiguity is deliberate on GWs part.

I think we can just leave this somewhat dorky argument as follows.

"Fluff is purposely ambiguous so nerds can make their own cool stories up"

Sorry but rules =/= fluff.

Rules have to deal with balance and a gakky 10 point system, it often doesn't properly reflect the fluff. Seeing that this part of the forum is about the fluff, and not rules, your arguments are invalid.

Oh ok, so theres no fluff where humans pwn orcs. My mistake.

HAVE YOU READ ANY ABNETT BOOKS?!

Ever heard about Armageddon?

mattyrm wrote:

Soladrin wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Half of what Melissa said is just made up in my eyes. The orc has an S value written in black and white, and without the charge they are S3, same as a guardsman.

Lone Orc Kommando wrecking a city on its own? How exactly? If a lone human SF trooper, with all of his training and intelligence and most importantly knowledge of how earth works, wouldnt be able to wreck a city on his own, how could an Orc? As soon as a riot van full of coppers turned up, he would be dead meat.

gak, seen worlds strongest man competition? Some normal unaugmented, 6 foot humans who merely train their bodies can bench 800lbs. Ryan Kennelly broke the 1000lb bench record. If you want to pick an exceptional Orc/SM/Human, you can find one.

But the "average orc boy" isn't an engine of destruction, and they frequently get their asses whipped on the table top when I deny them the charge and throw 30 guardsmen into them.

If you want to say an average orc is only as strong as a large human male, there are numerous ways to show this.

If you want to say that there are leet as feth and as awesome as SM, you can do that as well. And the ambiguity is deliberate on GWs part.

I think we can just leave this somewhat dorky argument as follows.

"Fluff is purposely ambiguous so nerds can make their own cool stories up"

Sorry but rules =/= fluff.

Rules have to deal with balance and a gakky 10 point system, it often doesn't properly reflect the fluff. Seeing that this part of the forum is about the fluff, and not rules, your arguments are invalid.

Oh ok, so theres no fluff where humans pwn orcs. My mistake.

HAVE YOU READ ANY ABNETT BOOKS?!

Yes, all of them, now give me a single quote of a human that owned an ork purely on physical strenght.

Soladrin wrote:

Yes, all of them, now give me a single quote of a human that owned an ork purely on physical strenght.

Read everything I written, where did I say humans "own" orks on physical strength?

I said the fluff is ambigious, and not all orks are the same size and strength, just like humans.

I said you are overstating what an Ork can do.

I said that an Ork would get beaten to death by any decent sized group of fighting age males

Though clearly some humans could own some orks. They arent all the same size, (both species)

Nobz are particularly large orks, some humans are particularly large and strong. Sergeant Harker could no doubt arm wrestle a somewhat puny Ork, being as he wields his heavy bolter as easily as a rifle.

As I said, the fluff is deliberately ambiguous, some orks are big, some orks are smaller. They don't all get cut from the same cloth, and neither do humans.

And to suggest that one "average" Ork, (not a nob and certainly not a warboss) could waltz through 20 men, is ridiculous. 20 men with sticks can kill a lion. An Ork is merely as strong as a very large and very strong man.

"even a pack of mangy wolves can kill a lion"

Soladrin wrote:
human that owned an ork purely on physical strenght.

Yarrick?

Brother Coa wrote:

Soladrin wrote:
human that owned an ork purely on physical strenght.

Yarrick?

I don't think Yarrick counts, cos he had a power fist on didn't he?

I bet Arnold could rip ones head off without a powerfist.

mattyrm wrote: Half of what Melissa said is just made up in my eyes.

That's because you don't know Ork lore.


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mattyrm wrote: Lone Orc Kommando wrecking a city on its own? How exactly? If a lone human SF trooper, with all of his training and intelligence and most importantly knowledge of how earth works, wouldnt be able to wreck a city on his own, how could an Orc?

For one, We aren't talking about Orcs. We're talking about Orks. Stop thinking of WFB Orcs, we're talking about 40k Orks.

As for Kommandos? Ork Kommandos are capable of sneaking around Eldar, nevermind humans. One Ork Kommando could easily sneak around causing havoc and panic and chaos as he spreads his spores across the city, causing a wave of squigs, gretchin, and grots to be born eventualy to support him. Even if he gets spotted, so what? He takes 9mm bullets with a smile, so he can fight his way out of all but the most serious engagements and then disengage with the enemy in disarray.

Melissia wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Half of what Melissa said is just made up in my eyes.

That's because you don't know Ork lore.

Ive read and enjoyed the Ork codex, what else do I need to know?

Orks are resilient and can survive a decapitation by sewing their heads back on, but they arent immortal, and they cant pick up absurd amounts of weight. Guardsmen kill them with bayonets for feths sake!

Nobz and warbosses have far more power maybe, but we werent talking about them.

And resilience isn't strength, and Space Marines can go fisty cuffs with ork boyz. How much stronger are they than a human? Could they bench 1000lbs? Some humans can. I am fit and strong, maybe one is stronger than me, but im smaller and quicker, maybe I could grab a makeshift weapon and cut its throat.

As I said, its a silly question, and a ridiculously ambiguous question, but I would fancy my chances against an ork boy with 3 or 4 of my mates.

I certainly dont see how one can level a city, is it going to have the knowledge and capability to aquire a working dirty bomb?


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Oh yeah, and they take 9mm bullets with a smile?

Where does it say that? They sometimes die to las guns. If i emptied a magazine into ones face at close range, then it dies. Did we say it was wearing a helmet, had feel no pain, has a cybork body?

No.

Melissia wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:That was just illustrating that Ork Boys being "stronger than humans" doesn't even begin to prove they're nearly as strong as a Space Marine. Which was my point the entire time.

And yet, they are. Crushing human skulls in their hand, cleaving through power armor with a relatively dull blade (in previous editions, the choppa actually reduced armor save value for this reason), wielding normally vehicle-mounted heavy machineguns unassisted while moving at full speed? Sounds quite similar, doesn't it?

Still this is what would happened to the Ork today:




DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA

mattyrm wrote:
And resilience isn't strength, and Space Marines can go fisty cuffs with ork boyz. How much stronger are they than a human? Could they bench 1000lbs?

I live in Spain, where the running of the bulls is a popular passtime in most rural (and some not so rural) areas. More often than never, a bull manages to escape, runs AMOK and has to be gunned down.

I once had the dubious privilege of seeing a not-too-big fighting bull take 15 9mm gunshots (Beretta 92, I think) before collapsing, plus a shot to the head at point blank to finish it off. And that one wasn't even running or charging (the poor beast was in shock and probably wounded). If it had been, the cops would have had a hard time getting a clear shot.

True, a mature bull weights well over the 1000lbs mark and is way larger than the average ork, but if the fluff is to be believed, the orks' crazy alien T:4 phisiology may be comparable.

Also, an ork is a sentient being, carries some armor (negligible by 40k standards, but hey, it's armor) and has some degree of military skill or training. He'd plan his strikes, use cover, try to pose a difficult target. I'm not saying that a single ork would lay waste to a city, but he'll happily hack and slash his way through you average mall crowd, security guards and the occasional police barricade with relative ease, at least until serious resistance is met (or a well-placed bullet stops him on his tracks). Think a madman on a killing spree, with the resilience of a fighting bull and the skill of a dedicated soldier. Not unstoppable, but certainly a severe pain in the *ss.

As for the S stat in 40k, I tend to think it implies more than just phisical prowess. Sure, those ripped guys at the gym may look pleasing to the eye, but I seriously doubt they'll be able to handle themselves well in a fight, let alone kill a man with their bare hands. Let's make them S:1, some of them being ruthless or brutal enough to become S:2. Now, take a professional soldier. Not only will he be fit, he'll also know the basics of hand-to-hand combat. Most likely, he'll be able to deliver a potentially fatal blow to an unarmored, untrained foe. That's S:2 in my books. Given that untrained foes are hard to come by in a battlefield, it'd be wise to give said soldier something to make his task a little easier. Say, a hunting knife, a bayonet, a pistol and maybe some grenades. That makes S:3, so welcome to the Imperial Guard, matey

Soladrin wrote:
Sorry but rules =/= fluff.

Hmmm... I have to disagree on this one. If the rules don't match the fluff it's either poor rules or poor fluff. Usually the latter.

I think ork fluff is on spot, though. Fearsome critters, yet not invincible. Just like on the tabletop.

mattyrm wrote: Half of what Melissa said is just made up in my eyes. The orc has an S value written in black and white, and without the charge they are S3, same as a guardsman.

The stats are kind of wide. Power Armour increases a Marine's strength by a decent deal, and Terminator Armour to an even greater extent. Un-power armoured Space Marines, Marines in PA, and Marines in TDA, are all S4. Orks are the strongest S3 unit in the game, that I can recall.

Lone Orc Kommando wrecking a city on its own? How exactly? If a lone human SF trooper, with all of his training and intelligence and most importantly knowledge of how earth works, wouldnt be able to wreck a city on his own, how could an Orc? As soon as a riot van full of coppers turned up, he would be dead meat.

The SF trooper isn't as durable as an elephant with the physical strength to pulp the heads of humans?

gak, seen worlds strongest man competition? Some normal unaugmented, 6 foot humans who merely train their bodies can bench 800lbs. Ryan Kennelly broke the 1000lb bench record. If you want to pick an exceptional Orc/SM/Human, you can find one.

The average Ork can cut through ceramite, a metal far more durable than steel, with fairly blunt and rusty blades. 1,000 pounds? Marines can fracture Power Armour with their fists.

But the "average orc boy" isn't an engine of destruction, and they frequently get their asses whipped on the table top when I deny them the charge and throw 30 guardsmen into them.

Yeah and the Nightbringer gets killed by a gang of Scout snipers on the TT, what's your point?

If you want to say an average orc is only as strong as a large human male, there are numerous ways to show this.

None of which originate from fluff.

If you want to say that there are leet as feth and as awesome as SM, you can do that as well. And the ambiguity is deliberate on GWs part.

Not quite as strong as they, and certainly not as dangerous one on one.

mattyrm wrote:Orks are resilient and can survive a decapitation by sewing their heads back on, but they arent immortal, and they cant pick up absurd amounts of weight. Guardsmen kill them with bayonets for feths sake!

They can lift weapons heavier than humans can pretty easily, and can once again crack and puncture power armour, and without the uber weapons of uberness the Imperium has.

And resilience isn't strength, and Space Marines can go fisty cuffs with ork boyz. How much stronger are they than a human? Could they bench 1000lbs? Some humans can. I am fit and strong, maybe one is stronger than me, but im smaller and quicker, maybe I could grab a makeshift weapon and cut its throat.

A Space Marine can gib a human being's skull with a single punch. Find a grown man who can do the same to another grown man. Oh, and they can lift the side of a 30 ton APC. Space Marines are much stronger than any human.

As I said, its a silly question, and a ridiculously ambiguous question, but I would fancy my chances against an ork boy with 3 or 4 of my mates.

You'd be a fool to do so. Unless you and your "mates" are all trained warriors from birth, the Ork Boy is by far the better fighter, as well as being durable enough to take a lasgun to the chest and smile, and tear the head clean off a man's shoulders.

I certainly dont see how one can level a city, is it going to have the knowledge and capability to aquire a working dirty bomb?

Once heavier weaponry is brought to bear, the Ork will die. But it's not being killed by men with baseball bats and knives.

Oh yeah, and they take 9mm bullets with a smile?

Where does it say that? They sometimes die to las guns. If i emptied a magazine into ones face at close range, then it dies. Did we say it was wearing a helmet, had feel no pain, has a cybork body?

No.

Are you under the impression a 9mm is anywhere near as potent as a lasgun? A lasgun usually needs a headshot to down an Ork. It won't even feel a dinky 9mm.

Lasguns are capable of decapitating space Marines. They are ridiculously powerful weapons that dwarf any modern standard infantry rifles today in raw damage potential-- including full battle rifles.

Melissia wrote:Lasguns are capable of decapitating space Marines.

Where has this happened?

Void Dragon Says: A Space Marine can gib a human being's skull with a single punch. Find a grown man who can do the same to another grown man. Oh, and they can lift the side of a 30 ton APC. Space Marines are much stronger than any human.


I'll show you pretty much any martial artist that practices Breaking techniques. There's people that can easily smash coconuts bare handed. Coconuts are about twice as hard to break as a human skull.

Four words...KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!!!

Anvildude wrote:I'll show you pretty much any martial artist that practices Breaking techniques.

No.

Cracking a carefully prepared hard object is different from turning the entire head into gibs with a single punch.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Melissia wrote:Lasguns are capable of decapitating space Marines.

Where has this happened?

Gaunt's Ghosts IIRC.

The CSM in question wasn't wearing his helmet and the lasgun was fired on the high setting (like how Krieg fires theirs), but still.

Anvildude wrote:Void Dragon Says: A Space Marine can gib a human being's skull with a single punch. Find a grown man who can do the same to another grown man. Oh, and they can lift the side of a 30 ton APC. Space Marines are much stronger than any human.


I'll show you pretty much any martial artist that practices Breaking techniques. There's people that can easily smash coconuts bare handed. Coconuts are about twice as hard to break as a human skull.

I don't think you understand what I meant by "gib."

I mean their skull explodes.

Beyond that, there is a difference between, as Melissia pointed out, there is a big difference between cracking a stationary hard object than exploding a skull. The humans aren't laid down, prepared to have their skulls cracked, for instance.


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Melissia wrote:Gaunt's Ghosts IIRC.

The CSM in question wasn't wearing his helmet and the lasgun was fired on the high setting (like how Krieg fires theirs), but still.

Eh.

Abnett's a good writer, but I don't trust his portrayal of Space Marines, not when he has bolter rounds going through the chestplate of Power Armour as though it were paper.

Though, I'm not familiar with the "power level" so to speak of the higher settings on a lasgun.

A lasgun with the right powerpack (hotshot) can cut through Power arrmour like it isnt there (AP 3).

Thats an overloaded lasgun, but the highest power setting without an overload would likely be about AP 4. They generally aren't used this way as it wastes powerpacks and reduces the life of the weapon.

I think the old Necromunda rules had details on the settings. I'll have to dig out my old books crate..

The AP 3 weapons aren't just lasguns with fancy powerpacks. They're a completely different make of weapon.

Hotshot powerpacks work in regular lasguns, but have a risk of damaging the gun.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lasgun

Hotshot weapons are designed for use with the increased power load, and don't break down as easily.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hotshot_lasgun

Orks? Sneaking around Eldar? Source? Kommandos are sneaky, but by no means are they sneakier than Eldar, who have discipline and patience on their side, before we mention technology and just plain old common sense. Ork camouflage is still Orky, and in a great big city it's hard to miss the chap with green skin who's much larger than a human. Orks also love combat, so a regular Ork Boy would love the chance to just run out screaming and fighting. Even if it's a Kommando, all Ork shootas are made to be loud, and I doubt even Kommandos use silencers.

Through sheer numbers the Ork would eventually go down. Also, I don't see how skin as tough as hard leather stops decent caliber bullets.

What we have to keep in mind is that a lot of the fluff written about all of the races in general is specifically designed to add a coolness factor to that race/faction.

According to Lexicanum, Ork bones are "thick, hard and durable, allowing them to sustain high velocity impacts without fracture or damage." Gee, that's so damn unspecific that if you interpreted it the wrong way, Orks couldn't ever die from bullets, or any high-velocity impact weapon for that matter.

3-5 Guardsmen could kill a single Ork boy with their lasguns, combining fire. I don't imagine that the Lasgun far exceeds the highest-caliber weapons of today, if it even does, which is unlikely. More importantly, Guardsmen have killed Orks with Bayonets. While Baseball bats won't do the trick, a group of Humans with knives could.

Saying it's impossible for a group of Humans to kill and Ork with knives is silly. It happens in the background all the time.