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Theduke07 wrote:Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines, Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard, get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK. Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Obvious troll is obvious...

boj0 wrote:

Theduke07 wrote:Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines.

At ten models, you get a free special weapon, usually of the plasma or melta variety. Plus they always have both Bolt rifle and pistol, giving them greater flexibility in range; and MotW which makes up for any lack of CC weapons

Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard

Ld 8 is poor now? Don't tell IG that, they might stop being amazing! Also, wasting an Elite slot? As opposed to what, Scouts? Wolf Guard are Grey Hunters on steroids so you have to almost try to mess them up; plus taking Logan makes them troops.

get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK

You're comparing them to another army, which really has no bearing on what makes them the worst unit in their own Codex.

Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Because they don't suck?

Okay, now take everything you just said, and take away 1 WS and BS, you now have Blood Claws, the worst unit in the codex.

He was being a troll obviously.

Wolves: Blood Claws. Blood Claws. Blood Claws.
Chaos marines: id say spawn undoubtedly
Blood Angels: techmarine with jump pack. Really?
Dark eldar: mandrakes. Dont take for the love of Russ please. I wouldn't wish a unit of mandrakes on my worst enemy.
Space Marines: thunderfire cannon. So easily broken
Tau: vespid. Expensive as hell. Cool idea but terrible unit
Tyranid: pyrovore
Eldar: those bloody swooping hawks.
Imperial guard: leman russ eradicator
Grey knight: inquisitor valeria with her mad knife-that-bites-back
Necron: everything

Benn Bloodmane wrote:Wolves: Blood Claws. Blood Claws. Blood Claws.
Tau: vespid. Expensive as hell. Cool idea but terrible unit

Ethereals are worse. Pay to give the army a giant "shoot this to win" Marker.

Vespids can be used to work with copious amounts of cover.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Benn Bloodmane wrote:Wolves: Blood Claws. Blood Claws. Blood Claws.
Tau: vespid. Expensive as hell. Cool idea but terrible unit

Ethereals are worse. Pay to give the army a giant "shoot this to win" Marker.

Vespids can be used to work with copious amounts of cover.

I raise you a space pope.

??

severedblue wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Benn Bloodmane wrote:Wolves: Blood Claws. Blood Claws. Blood Claws.
Tau: vespid. Expensive as hell. Cool idea but terrible unit

Ethereals are worse. Pay to give the army a giant "shoot this to win" Marker.

Vespids can be used to work with copious amounts of cover.

I raise you a space pope.

??

He doesn't count. He is hands down the worst in the whole game.

Yea, spend points to let your opponent run your army off the table.

Jackster wrote:Yea, spend points to let your opponent run your army off the table.

I think we have some votes for the worst unit in the game.

Does he have ANY redeeming qualities? Is he a force multiplier of some sort, for example? If you keep him in a devilfish ala farseer style, is that any mitigation?

severedblue wrote:

Jackster wrote:Yea, spend points to let your opponent run your army off the table.

I think we have some votes for the worst unit in the game.

Does he have ANY redeeming qualities? Is he a force multiplier of some sort, for example? If you keep him in a devilfish ala farseer style, is that any mitigation?

Every Tau that can see Aun'Va are stubborn.


I did have an Idea for Gunline tau that used Shadowsun and Aun'va.

Use Aun'Va and his friends Hanz and Franz to assault everything until they die, Keep all your Tau in Shadowsun's Leadership Bubble. When Aun'va dies, your Tau will have Space Marine Leadership thanks to Shadowsun's bubble and wil not flee as much, PLUS they gain Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy.

S6 Crisis Suits with three attacks will hurt something. Not TH/SS termies, but s6 hurts.


Never really went anywhere with this list, because you are looking at about 1/5 of your army being below average Special Characters, which means less Suits/Railguns/Markerlights/Speed bumps.

And I remember Chimley on the Old 40k Radio (Prior to whatever happened with Spencer and the crazy death threats from trolls) saying he ran an Ethereal just to get him killed for the Preferred Enemy.



Got WAY off topic, but not really. Stubborn is cool and all, but if your tau are in CC, you have bigger things to worry about than lowered Leadership.

I saw a Swooping Hawk theme army on E-Bay

IS fluff really that compelling to create an army of entirely sub-par units?

If I had the money I'd make a shining spear / jet bike army myself... if they had a Phoneix Lord that would be even better...

Benn Bloodmane wrote:
Space Marines: thunderfire cannon. So easily broken

You've not seen the casualties a single round of shooting a TFC can do to a horde. 20 dead ork boyz in one turn isn't out of the question.

severedblue wrote:I saw a Swooping Hawk theme army on E-Bay

IS fluff really that compelling to create an army of entirely sub-par units?

If I had the money I'd make a shining spear / jet bike army myself... if they had a Phoneix Lord that would be even better...

Swooping Hawks can be of some effect vs. vehicles with haywire grenades, the ability to hit fast vehicles on a 4+, and an 19"-24" assault range.

Against infantry, the number of STR 3 shots they can put out just does not cut it. STR 3 only works in massive numbers, like IG flashlights.

SM: Lotd
Tau: Vespids
BA: Tech marines
Dark eldar: Mandrakes
IG: Ogryns
Orks: SaG

CSM: Spawns, possessed, for sure. Lucius, Ahriman (he is too expensive and dies by one rocket), bikes (33 points for what??).

GK: Valeria, Karamazov (well, he is just not so strong as other HQ's), b.c.Stern.

Daemons: furies, daemonettes, beasts of khorne.

Necrons: pariahs, flayed ones, warriors.

The reason swooping hawks are better than Pathfinders is because there is actually things they can do.

Imperial Guard can suck on a s4 ap5 large blast that only scatters d6 inches every turn the Hawks deep strike. And since with an Autarch they come in on a 3+ turn 2, and a 2+ on turn 2, and can sky leap every turn, you can drop those grenade packs nearly every turn, and its impossible for the IG to shoot them, since they are never on the table on their turn. Then on turn 4 you deep strike them someplace relatively safe, turn 5 you move 12 inches, fleet + assault to contest an objective. (or if you're feeling ballsy deep strike + fleet them to contest and cross your fingers about scattering...) Over all these are all cool and useful abilities. I'd argue that Hawks are considerably better than Shinning Spears and Rangers.

Plus the Sun Rifle is a bad ass piece of wargear- Bs 5, assault 6, pinning, sure its only s3, but still if you want to shoot with them the exarch shoots about as well as 4 hawks and has pinning to boot.

So yea, Hawks are over priced and totally not worth it- but they aren't the worst unit in the codex...

Hawks can't be the worst unit, when the same codex has Shining Spears.

I want to love shining spears. Jousting jetbikes sounds awesome. But with a cap of 5, being really costly in points and money means it's not worth it. (Sure it's easy to convert but still. Points cost.)

CSM: Spawn. Contrary to popular belief, Bikers and Raptors can have a place in any CSM list; Raptors are a cheap tank-hunter squad, while Bikes can be a psychological tool. Double meltagun bikers turbo-boosting turn 1 can draw a lot of fire away from other crucial aspects. They run pretty well in my list. However, Spawn are a sick joke.
Guard: Ratlings (with the advent of plasma/melta spam, you've got more than enough tools for dealing with MC's. Why bother with these guys?)
Orks: Looted Wagons; 'nuff said.
Nids: Pyrovores, Sky Slasher Swarms, and 'fexes (with a few exceptions).

For SW Blood Claws, why would anyone trade +1 ws +1 bs for +1 attack on the charge?

I'm sure it's possible to mathhammer it to see how many blood claws you would need in additional attacks to make up for a drop in the number of wounds inflicted, when compared to similarly equipped Grey Hunters

DakkaDakka wrote:

severedblue wrote:For SW Blood Claws, why would anyone trade +1 ws +1 bs for +1 attack on the charge?

I'm sure it's possible to mathhammer it to see how many blood claws you would need in additional attacks to make up for a drop in the number of wounds inflicted, when compared to similarly equipped Grey Hunters

To be fair, most of the things those Blood Claws will be charging, won't see a difference in their To-Hit rolls. Sure, the enemy will strike on 3+ instead of 4+ usually, but WS3 won't likely cost you any hits. It really does surprise me how little weapon skill actually effects your offensive presence. So just don't charge something that's WS 7 or higher.

The real question is, how many hits back will you take, and is it worth the extra attacks to take the extra losses?


Back on topic though, I'm going to have to throw another vote for Space Pope being the worst unit in the game. Absolutely terrible.

Seriously no has brought up servitors as the worst unit in the SM codex? Waste an elite slot on a tech priest. T3, 4+ with overpriced weapons that bring down your majority toughness since they need a tech marine to not go insane. Everything 'bad' else in the SM book is generally just done better by other units or only 'kill hordes' or some crap like that.

Theduke07 wrote:Seriously no has brought up servitors as the worst unit in the SM codex? Waste an elite slot on a tech priest. T3, 4+ with overpriced weapons that bring down your majority toughness since they need a tech marine to not go insane. Everything 'bad' else in the SM book is generally just done better by other units or only 'kill hordes' or some crap like that.

I agree.

I really wanted to use a horde of servitors protecting my MOTF with conversion beamer... but they are too expensive and vulnerable to just be additional wounds and have too low bs to make any use of their expensive weapons. But they have power fists... which never will be used as they are cut down quickly in cc.

Nork Deddog.

For the price of 3 ogryns, you get 1 ogryn.

DakkaDakka wrote:

I forgot one more. It is known as "The spore mine."

Sure, it's a landmine that blows up on enemies, and uses the large pie plate, but you have no control of them, and they wander at random. really unreliable choice, unless you bomb them, but even then, it's only for the harpy and biovore.

Rennoc215 wrote:I forgot one more. It is known as "The spore mine."

Sure, it's a landmine that blows up on enemies, and uses the large pie plate, but you have no control of them, and they wander at random. really unreliable choice, unless you bomb them, but even then, it's only for the harpy and biovore.

I am sure that a few Tyrannid players would disagree with you- they are not as reliable as a pie-plate but they serve a different purpose. Persistent area denial, to funnel your enemies into killzones?

True, but how often can the terrain and your enemy work so perfectly?

Would you take a pyrovore / sky slashers over spore mines??
what would you say the last choice pic of that codex is ??

Rennoc215 wrote:True, but how often can the terrain and your enemy work so perfectly?

Either assault marines or Vanguard VS... for codex astartes