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Phiasco II wrote:I'd have to say every special character in codex: GK. They are all either way to expensive points wise, or just have horrible/useless special rules. All the Inquisitorial henchmen also make this list as discussed earlier. The Dreadknight is a an expensive terminator armor on steroids.

Really? I think at the very least, both Crowe and Draigo are both fantastic. Draigo is an absolute monster in close combat. Yes, he is 275 points. But unlocking palidins as troops and then putting Draigo in a said paladin squad will just rape face. Especially one with a banner. And Crowe unlocks purifiers as troops. These guys are amazing at everything, its almost not fair. 2 psycannons per 5 man squad? Yes please. throw them in razor spam and you have a very nasty army. With Crowe, you just point him towards the nearest big bad nasty character and almost hope he dies, just to Heroic sacrifice the ur target. I do however completely agree with the henchmen aforementioned. My vote for worst units in the armies I have are as follows:

Nids: gonna agree with everyone else and say pyrovore.
SM: Either servitors or assault marines/vanguard vets. none of these have ever done squat for me.
Orks: This is actually kinda hard to say, a number of units could be worthless depending on the randomness of the army. tankbustas usually do horrible for me.
Chaos: yeah, possessed are terrible. but really, nearly half the codex is relatively useless in competitive play.

tedurur wrote:

GreyChaos wrote:I'll actually defend the legion of the damned for the SM. 10 pts less per pop compared to a TH/SS termy and they have the same save. I love to DS these guys in and flash a couple meltas around before forcing someone to tie them up or let them keep gunning away. Possibly my most enjoyable tarpit unit since they can shoot and are 3/4 the cost of their counterparts.

3++ is most definitely not the same as a 2+/3++ save.

plus the fact that they have half the strength. I've fielded legion of the damned at least a dozen times, and only once did they make up thier points with a flukey multi-melta shot blowing up a hellhammer in one shot.

Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

I'm gonna have to agree with Thor on the Dias being the worst unit in the Codex.
An un-upgradable, overpriced Ravager with no Aerial Assault rule and a mandatory 100+ of cargo in addition to the 400+ the thing already costs, and it becomes the first target for anyone with a brain.

Possibly with the option of having coteaz a countsas jokearo that's stolen some armour.
And probably with something stupid like the option to bring it up to 2000pts with a 'looted' jokearo storm raven. (a pair of jokaero for pilots, the guns jokaero hanging off it etc)

lol
Wonder what would happen if the monkeys "enhanced" the Emperors golden throne.

Penal Legion are actually incredible! DIE, DIE, DIE foolish MANDRAKES :(

Pyriel- wrote:

Possibly with the option of having coteaz a countsas jokearo that's stolen some armour.
And probably with something stupid like the option to bring it up to 2000pts with a 'looted' jokearo storm raven. (a pair of jokaero for pilots, the guns jokaero hanging off it etc)

lol
Wonder what would happen if the monkeys "enhanced" the Emperors golden throne.

haha I would imagine they would add an HDTV with TiVo, the 'works' of game consoles, a heavy gatling gun, an earthshaker cannon and a very shiny blender.

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

No, no, no, go feth yourself, no.

You're paying an extra 100 or so points (basically a vet squad) for a dude with:

A 5+ Invul save (rare amongst Guard)
A 4+ Armor save (semi-rare)
Stubborn (Also conferred to a command squad, if need be)
A 4-shot, WS 5 Power Fist, and a BS 5 storm bolter
Eternal Warrior
Three wounds
THE ABILITY TO GET UP AFTER HE DIES

I can't tell you how many times Yarrick has won me games. I've killed whole Termi Squads with him, easy, because he generally matches them on initiative and outmatches them on WS. He's killed countless Dreadnaughts, tanks, anything, because he's just so awesome.

Fluffwise, he's also a regular badass, considering he got his arm swiped off by a Nob, then decapitated the Nob with a chainsword in one hit, sliced off its Klaw, and attached it to his own fething arm to use as a weapon.

Also, to defend conscripts, if you take Commander Cheknov they have some limited use, as they don't take up any additional FO slots (being appended to a platoon) and you can get a fresh 50 models on a whim, which is killer in objective games. You can also use them as a blob in combat, because even if they're worth crap in close combat, 100 attacks on a charge is gonna do some serious damage.

Lordraymond wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

No, no, no, go feth yourself, no.

You're paying an extra 100 or so points (basically a vet squad) for a dude with:

A 5+ Invul save (rare amongst Guard)
A 4+ Armor save (semi-rare)
Stubborn (Also conferred to a command squad, if need be)
A 4-shot, WS 5 Power Fist, and a BS 5 storm bolter
Eternal Warrior
Three wounds
THE ABILITY TO GET UP AFTER HE DIES

I can't tell you how many times Yarrick has won me games. I've killed whole Termi Squads with him, easy, because he generally matches them on initiative and outmatches them on WS. He's killed countless Dreadnaughts, tanks, anything, because he's just so awesome.

Fluffwise, he's also a regular badass, considering he got his arm swiped off by a Nob, then decapitated the Nob with a chainsword in one hit, sliced off its Klaw, and attached it to his own fething arm to use as a weapon.

Also, to defend conscripts, if you take Commander Cheknov they have some limited use, as they don't take up any additional FO slots (being appended to a platoon) and you can get a fresh 50 models on a whim, which is killer in objective games. You can also use them as a blob in combat, because even if they're worth crap in close combat, 100 attacks on a charge is gonna do some serious damage.

^ what he said.
I even converted the horrendously overpriced fortress of arrogance for him.

Lordraymond wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

No, no, no, go feth yourself, no.

You're paying an extra 100 or so points (basically a vet squad) for a dude with:

A 5+ Invul save (rare amongst Guard)
A 4+ Armor save (semi-rare)
Stubborn (Also conferred to a command squad, if need be)
A 4-shot, WS 5 Power Fist, and a BS 5 storm bolter
Eternal Warrior
Three wounds
THE ABILITY TO GET UP AFTER HE DIES

I can't tell you how many times Yarrick has won me games. I've killed whole Termi Squads with him, easy, because he generally matches them on initiative and outmatches them on WS. He's killed countless Dreadnaughts, tanks, anything, because he's just so awesome.

Fluffwise, he's also a regular badass, considering he got his arm swiped off by a Nob, then decapitated the Nob with a chainsword in one hit, sliced off its Klaw, and attached it to his own fething arm to use as a weapon.

Also, to defend conscripts, if you take Commander Cheknov they have some limited use, as they don't take up any additional FO slots (being appended to a platoon) and you can get a fresh 50 models on a whim, which is killer in objective games. You can also use them as a blob in combat, because even if they're worth crap in close combat, 100 attacks on a charge is gonna do some serious damage.

Im sorry but what? A str 6 PF is not impressive and how you have managed to destroy countless dreadnoughts when you can only glance them is beyond me..Also, what inv save?

tedurur wrote:

Lordraymond wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Yarrick

No, no, no, go feth yourself, no.

You're paying an extra 100 or so points (basically a vet squad) for a dude with:

A 5+ Invul save (rare amongst Guard)
A 4+ Armor save (semi-rare)
Stubborn (Also conferred to a command squad, if need be)
A 4-shot, WS 5 Power Fist, and a BS 5 storm bolter
Eternal Warrior
Three wounds
THE ABILITY TO GET UP AFTER HE DIES

I can't tell you how many times Yarrick has won me games. I've killed whole Termi Squads with him, easy, because he generally matches them on initiative and outmatches them on WS. He's killed countless Dreadnaughts, tanks, anything, because he's just so awesome.

Fluffwise, he's also a regular badass, considering he got his arm swiped off by a Nob, then decapitated the Nob with a chainsword in one hit, sliced off its Klaw, and attached it to his own fething arm to use as a weapon.

Im sorry but what? A str 6 PF is not impressive and how you have managed to destroy countless dreadnoughts when you can only glance them is beyond me..Also, what inv save?

The point is, he's worth it for pure survivability. He can happily last a game in CC with terminators, a daemon prince, etc, and eventually he's gonna either die after taking out some and tying up the unit for the whole game, or win and wiped out the squad. He can tie up 90% of deathstar units for numerous turns, and dropping them one by one.

SM: Vanguard Veterans
IG: Ogryns, Deathstrike Missile
Orks: Looted Wagon

Yarrick is horribly overpriced for what he does, but in a power blob he becomes mildly useful. Add Straken for furious charge & counter attack and you get some nasty Guardsmen- on the charge with a 30 man powerblob (or when being charged), you get 63 S4 I4 attacks, 9 of them Power Weapon attacks and 4 S6 Power Fist attacks, all re-rolling to hit. And it doesn't matter that Yarrick is an IC and can be singled out in CC since he's so damned tough.
Although you should only use this in Apoc since it's insanely expensive.

shrike wrote:I even converted the horrendously overpriced fortress of arrogance for him.

I wouldn't call it horrendously overpriced. For 160pts more than a regular baneblade you get a fair number of extras, such as extra BS and the ability to have Yarrick assault out of it. It isn't cheap but isn't too bad when you consider Yarrick is included in the cost.

Trickstick wrote:

shrike wrote:I even converted the horrendously overpriced fortress of arrogance for him.

I wouldn't call it horrendously overpriced. For 160pts more than a regular baneblade you get a fair number of extras, such as extra BS and the ability to have Yarrick assault out of it. It isn't cheap but isn't too bad when you consider Yarrick is included in the cost.

point.

Plus Fortress of Arrogance looks cool.

Orks - Flashgitz

Ok, from a modelling/fluff/killteam perspective these guys are friggin aweseom. Hell, I even converted a bunch of boyz into them.
But from a gaming perspective....

Necrons - Pariah
Again, awesome fluff, great models but can't be used effectively in a game.

Dark Eldar - Mandrakes
See above

I'm not saying Yarrick is the most amazing of amazing ICs, and he's certainly not a must-have, but he's FAR from the worst in the codex.

Griffons are pretty bad, considering that you pay for something that something else (The Medusa, I think) can do even better, and at longer range.

Nids with the pyrovore and the Carnifex

on the carnifex: They used to be the staple of any army, and running 6 of them +2 HT's in a 1500 point game is a killer, but nowadays, the only way you can make them be useful is through double devourers, which have more attacks, but they dont get re rolls on both hits and wounds like in 4th edition,
Fluff wise, unbeatable, but otherwise, they are kinda weak

For nilla its legion of the damned. If they were cheaper then yeah i'd use em but atm they're too expensive for a suicide unit!

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

I'm going to have to defend Harker here. I know that he is pretty expensive, but paying 55 points to make one of the most reliable anti-tank squads in the game outflank or infiltrate could very well be worth it if you do it properly.
Imagine having a wall of chimeras going up the field of battle. The opponent of course backs up to avoid being murdered, and you hit him from the side in a turn where he haven't got the time to deal with the threat and take out one of his tanks, while Harker and his squad still lives. I use him most for infiltrating harrasment in friendly games, but the ability to outflank or infiltrate, while being able to cap objectives and being kitted out for extreme anti-horde or anti-tank can make him worth it if you do it poperly. Being a total bad-ass, and making his squadmates complete badasses is just a bonus

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

severedblue wrote:
Daemons: Furies

I disagree, beast of nurgle is way more useless than furies. Furies are jump infantry, and are useful for board control in an army which is relatively highly un-mobile. Beast of nurgle, though, is slow, not really that tough, and not worth the points, not reliable to do damage, unless maybe your running a tallyman list. Furies can at least deny an area for your opponent, or jump over meat shields to tie up HW/shooty squads.

Theyre about the same in my scale, they all DS so they can all "get there"

They can "get there" like a drop pod squad can- once they are there, they are THERE- what happens when you need them here? Less like a drop pod squad though, since you don't have a guidance system and can mishap. Mobility in daemons is a selling point, its kind of why people love fiends so much

Vaktathi wrote:Here's my list for IG

Ogryns, LR Vanquishers, Penal Legion, Deathstrike, Yarrick, Bastogne, Harker, LR Punisher, Master of Ordnance, Techpriests, Priests.

Honorable Mentions: Stormtroopers, LR Eradicator, Sentinels, Rough Riders, Lord Commissars, Basilisk (although in Apocalypse they're great), Heavy Weapon Squads.

Storm Troopers, Basilisks and HWS certainly arent anywhere near useless.

Ovion wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:-Jokaero. Banana monkeys nobody takes due to insane point costs for what little they do.

One day I intend to make a 1500 point Grey Knight force of 40 Jokaero and Coteaz.

Possibly with the option of having coteaz a countsas jokearo that's stolen some armour.
And probably with something stupid like the option to bring it up to 2000pts with a 'looted' jokearo storm raven. (a pair of jokaero for pilots, the guns jokaero hanging off it etc)

But yeah monkey army. It's the only option I'd take in a GK force

Dark Eldar it's mandrakes and how. All they'd need is either 2 wounds, to start with a pain token, a better CC attack (even if it was rending or something) or to have Kherudrakh be an independant character. Any one of those would make them usable... but as is not so much.

UGH... Someone showed up to 'ard boyz with 6 psyriflemen dreads and 26 monkeys in chimeras. That's as close as i've seen.

The main barrier is really cost for it.

£7.70 a monkey, 40 monkeys that's £308. £338.50 with Coteaz and the Codex. :(

That's roughly 3 times the budget of my Skaven force, twice my Dark Eldar and 2-3 times my Tau...

For Space Wolves; I'm going to go with Blood Claws, the extra swing on the charge isn't that helpful when they have such limited options elsewhere on the table. Fenresian Wolves can get up close faster, hit more reliably and just as hard; as well as having more models to blob on opponents. Grey Hunters are simply better than darn near any other Troop choice in the game, between gear options, counter charge, and cost, they outshine Claws so badly its almost embarrassing.

What's the SoB last choice?

Cannoness? Repentia?

Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines, Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard, get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK. Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Theduke07 wrote:Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines, Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard, get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK. Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Theduke07 wrote:Grey Hunters in the Space Wolves codex. Sure they're 'only' 15 points but at what cost? No free special weapons like Nilla marines.

At ten models, you get a free special weapon, usually of the plasma or melta variety. Plus they always have both Bolt rifle and pistol, giving them greater flexibility in range; and MotW which makes up for any lack of CC weapons

Poor leadership with no Sergent without wasting an elite squad on Wolf Guard

Ld 8 is poor now? Don't tell IG that, they might stop being amazing! Also, wasting an Elite slot? As opposed to what, Scouts? Wolf Guard are Grey Hunters on steroids so you have to almost try to mess them up; plus taking Logan makes them troops.

get torrented out by small arms fire without the ability to get FNP like some armies. Simply can't compete with all the free force weapons and long range basic weapons of GK

You're comparing them to another army, which really has no bearing on what makes them the worst unit in their own Codex.

Not sure how players can get SW to work in the current meta with such awful basic troops

Because they don't suck?

Okay, now take everything you just said, and take away 1 WS and BS, you now have Blood Claws, the worst unit in the codex.