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Its the Battle Tank that worries Draigowing the most. a large enough plate to cover the unit if it isn't spread out enough( like when their transport explodes) and ignore the expensive Apothecaries FNP. Sure they get a save, but every failed save is a dead Pally, and that is just the main cannon. They have LC on the front, with only a 5++ to protect them. Then the sponsons. And the rest of the amry.

loota boy wrote:

ThaPlayah wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

I recently took part in the Throne Of Skulls GT in Nottingham a month ago with an all Thundernator Deathwing army and managed to win Best Dark Angel and come 5th overall. The 3rd game I played was against a Grey Knight army which had a low model count and although it wasn't Draigowing it looked very much like one and he conceded turn 4 because he couldn't win. Here's a good example of how well the game went.

He killed a grant total of 3 models in my army over the space of 3 turns and that was to Storm Bolter fire from basic PA Grey Knight squads. He fired 2 Storm Ravens, 2 Rifleman Dreads, and 2 GKT Squads into Belials unit and killed none. The same turn he charged both units of Terminators in and bounced. My Librarian and 2 Terminators killed 1 unit of GKT with Belial and the rest consolidating his 2nd unit of GKT off the board.

He conceded at the end of that assault and also the same guy won Best Grey Knight player.

I've yet to play against a Draigowing army using my Deathwing but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

Fair enough you may strike before me in melee but my Inv save is better and I have more chance of killing you and countering your Paladins.

This is all well and good, but the list you are discribing doesn't actaully contain any paladins. GK termies are, in my opinion, not that great, and are outpreformed by strike squads in most ways. So while you've shown that dark angels can cope with GK just fine, you don't know how it does against actual draigowing.

What are Paladins, slightly harder Terminators in my opinion.

Let's not kid ourselves on here, yes they are decent but they are too expensive not unless they are equipped with NFS then my Terminators will chew through them as will the other 25 Thundernators. I'm not saying I'm an amazing player but there wasn't one Draigowing player on the top tables when I was at Throne of Skulls. Like I said in my earlier post the best Grey Knight player lost to me in the third game after I almost tabled him.

Bearing in mind that there was 1 close combat during the entire game, I blew him to pieces before his Purifiers got close to me.

ThaPlayah wrote:

loota boy wrote:

ThaPlayah wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

I recently took part in the Throne Of Skulls GT in Nottingham a month ago with an all Thundernator Deathwing army and managed to win Best Dark Angel and come 5th overall. The 3rd game I played was against a Grey Knight army which had a low model count and although it wasn't Draigowing it looked very much like one and he conceded turn 4 because he couldn't win. Here's a good example of how well the game went.

He killed a grant total of 3 models in my army over the space of 3 turns and that was to Storm Bolter fire from basic PA Grey Knight squads. He fired 2 Storm Ravens, 2 Rifleman Dreads, and 2 GKT Squads into Belials unit and killed none. The same turn he charged both units of Terminators in and bounced. My Librarian and 2 Terminators killed 1 unit of GKT with Belial and the rest consolidating his 2nd unit of GKT off the board.

He conceded at the end of that assault and also the same guy won Best Grey Knight player.

I've yet to play against a Draigowing army using my Deathwing but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

Fair enough you may strike before me in melee but my Inv save is better and I have more chance of killing you and countering your Paladins.

This is all well and good, but the list you are discribing doesn't actaully contain any paladins. GK termies are, in my opinion, not that great, and are outpreformed by strike squads in most ways. So while you've shown that dark angels can cope with GK just fine, you don't know how it does against actual draigowing.

What are Paladins, slightly harder Terminators in my opinion.

Let's not kid ourselves on here, yes they are decent but they are too expensive not unless they are equipped with NFS then my Terminators will chew through them as will the other 25 Thundernators. I'm not saying I'm an amazing player but there wasn't one Draigowing player on the top tables when I was at Throne of Skulls. Like I said in my earlier post the best Grey Knight player lost to me in the third game after I almost tabled him.

Bearing in mind that there was 1 close combat during the entire game, I blew him to pieces before his Purifiers got close to me.

The only card to play against TH/SS Deathwing with a pally army is to out-shooot them, or outmaneuver them with a landraider . TH makes short work of paladins, NFSword or no NFSword. The only kind of hope a draigowing has against that much TH SS Termies in assault are warding staves.

Sanctuary Libbies are also hard counters to them, and if you are feeling lucky, Psychotroke grenades.

Deadshot wrote:Its the Battle Tank that worries Draigowing the most. a large enough plate to cover the unit if it isn't spread out enough( like when their transport explodes) and ignore the expensive Apothecaries FNP. Sure they get a save, but every failed save is a dead Pally, and that is just the main cannon. They have LC on the front, with only a 5++ to protect them. Then the sponsons. And the rest of the amry.

What about the Ork Shokk Attack Gun?

Not so much. It can be absolutley devastating, or it might scatter completey away, or it might send that 1 Mek into combat with Draigo and Co., or kill him instantly. Not that scary but it is still a threat.

There's a big difference between gk termies and palys. Palys are way more killy with brotherhood banners and extra psycannons, and infinantly more survivable with extra wounds, wound allocation and FnP. Hammernators arn't as scary as they are made out to be against palys. Palys get to strike first, so have a decent chance of dropping a couple hammernators before they swing back, and if you have a warding staff (you're playing draigowing, why wouldn't you?) then hammernator benifits are pretty much rendered null.

Normally Draigo and a Libby with MoT is there too. That merans +4 Str after all Hammerhands and Might, so 2+ to wound and no FNP if availible. And if You try to charge, then the Libs comes out with Santuary.

Say what? Hammerhand doesn't stack does it?

as per the main rule book faq psychic powers stack unless specified otherwise.

A working average is that a character and 5 paladins will wipe a 5 man TH/SS squad or reduce it to one or two models (assuming Draigo's GS has given them counter-attack that works both for attack and defence). in return they will most often take no losses or lose one paladin.

The only way deathwing can cause paladins serious trouble is by multi-assaulting with 2 x 5 man squads, which Sanctuary can make quite tricky to pull off if the TH/SS player has not thought ahead.

30 TH/SS terminators will most certainly cause a 10-strong paladin list trouble. The key for the paladins is to ensure they get the charge, and to use stormraven melta and plasma fire (plus the mindstrikes) to weaken the enemy squads that may counter-charge (and to use Sanctuary of course). Belial plus 30 TH/Ss actually costs about the same as 2 stormravens plus Draigo, librarian and 10 paladins so it's a reasonable comparison. 5 man plus character firepower will usually kill one TH/SS terminator before the paladins charge, which makes quite a difference to the chances of wiping the terminator squad so charged. Really then it depends on how much the terrain, consolidation moves and other such factors inhibit the enemy's ability to hit home with 2 4 or 5 man strong squads - it's also often worth not charging Draigo in with his squad but instead sending him on a 'johnny mad - solo man' run against a full squad himself (his squad gains S6 because the Librarian casts Might on them and then hammerhand on his own squad). S6 Draigo with 5 attacks will tend to kill on TH/SS and in return they inflict a wound on him. he'll happily tarpit that squad for a few turns that waymeaning the enemy's counter assault is further inhibited.

Often what holds the key to who wins is what other forces are on the board coupled with the Deathwing player's ability to concentrate his force - if he lets himself get picked off piecemeal or is deluded enough to believe that 5 TH/SS > 5 paladins in assault, he'll be minced.

It's actually a very good and balanced match is deathwing versus paladins.

dnanoodle wrote:Say what? Hammerhand doesn't stack does it?

Yep, it specifically says it stacks, and the bonus is extended to all IC attached. Not only that, but Mioght Of Titan also specifically says it stacks with Hammerhand, though with other Mights, I am not sure. AND, Hammerhand's bopnus is applied BEFORE modifiers such as Daemon Hammers, so 1 Str 4 model+Hammerhand=Str 10 NFW Thunder Hammer!

Therefore, when Draigo, a Paladin Squad and a Libby with MoT all cast Hammerhand, + Might, then they gain +4 Str, meaning Draigo is Str 9 and they are Str 8, and roll 2D6 for AP. And any armed with a Daemon Hammer get Str 10, as does Draigo is the squad contains any Daemons or Psykers. And thet are normally armed with Halberds, so Int 6 Str 8, 2D6 Armour Pen Pallies. The good news is that the Paladins can't ID anyone, unless they are T4>, or T5 if Str 10. The Libby can ID, but only if he takes Mastery Lvl 3, and Draigo can ID one guy.

It has generally been my experience that paladins, + some of number of ICs (Draigo, Libbies, regular GMs or INquisitors with crazy'nades) will lose to TH/SS is straight combat, but win pretty easily if they get a round of shooting first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThaPlayah wrote:

What are Paladins, slightly harder Terminators in my opinion.

Let's not kid ourselves on here, yes they are decent but they are too expensive not unless they are equipped with NFS then my Terminators will chew through them as will the other 25 Thundernators. I'm not saying I'm an amazing player but there wasn't one Draigowing player on the top tables when I was at Throne of Skulls. Like I said in my earlier post the best Grey Knight player lost to me in the third game after I almost tabled him.

Bearing in mind that there was 1 close combat during the entire game, I blew him to pieces before his Purifiers got close to me.

Well, I have placed quite well at a GT, and for the finals for Ard Boyz with a heavy Draigo and paladin list (still hesitant to call it "Draigo-wing", too much otehr stuff).

Pure Draigowing has done quite well at several tournaments, as well.

So the evidence disagrees with you.

I'd also suggest that at an event like Throne of Skulls, army selection matters far less than player skill. Everybody is good, and the better players are going to emerge.

From my experience with my deathwing, paladins beat my massed THSS termies thanks to shooting, not assault. To that end, I dont consider stormravens at all useful to a proper paladin list, but I am a deathwing player so stormravens dont factor into my playstyle.

I think the issue with paladins is that there are so many paladin lists, when discussing what is good or bad I will have a different army build in mind than you might.

My 2k Draigowing, for example, has Draigo, 10 pallys with 4 cannons, 3 units of 2 cannon purifiers in rhinos, 3 units of psy riflemen dreds, and a 5 man pcannon strike squad.

This list puts so many shots out at a deathwing army that the THSS just melt under the 44 pcannon shots.

Meanwhile, another 2k Draigowing may have 3 pally units in 3 stormravens. The stormravens are great targets for the Deathwing's krak missiles, and the Pallys have no cc support and half the psycannons while only adding 5 total more paladins to the list. Here, a concentrated deathwing termie block can easily deal with the paladins in CC by counterassaulting 1 unit at a time.

It can be. However i dont think its as good as ig or sw. Ive played against it a few times. Lost once to kp (where they seem to be the best at) and won on capture and control (d3 +2 objectives, which is what guard excells at.) And of course we draw on the one where you both have an objective.

One thing is how about weaken resolve on a paly unit, make them ld2, then focus str8+ ap2 shots until you kill 25%. They fail ld and fall back. Sure they rally, but they still fell back on avg 7in.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:One thing is how about weaken resolve on a paly unit, make them ld2, then focus str8+ ap2 shots until you kill 25%. They fail ld and fall back. Sure they rally, but they still fell back on avg 7in.

The quote I have on that, by an IG player playing me, is that the paladins almost never take 25% casualties. Complained bitterly about it, in fact. I found his tears sweet.

I beat them with my Tau... and THAT is saying something. hahaha

seriously though, if you take enough shots at termies, they go down... even with FNP

That's pretty cool but I dont see when S8 ID is better than the NFWs, especially if you activate with the BroBanner so you can't fail (and by my reading you can't be stopped by Runes of Warding). It's more spell casts and if any of them are blocked by a hood etc, it doesn't work.

Against MCs and walkers that's pretty amazing though. You don't need to worry about where your hammer is and can kill Furiosos and whatnot at Halberd initiative. Neat trick. Thanks for explaining

loota boy wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Well, niether does Imperial Plasma weapons of any sort, yet Plasmna seems to a hardf counter to Termikes. And 3 Plasma Cannon shopts from a single weapon, plus another 2 from ther sponsons, ansd whatever you have on the hull, is going to take down even TH/SS. And that is only 1 model.

Yes, but TH/SS termies only have one wound, so str 7 and str 8 feels the same to them. With paladins, all the kills you just made are sliced in half, and probably you get less casualties because of wound allocation. I am far more afriad of demo russes and basalisks then executioners. Besides, no gaurd players really seem to like russes anymore, it's all bassy variants, manticores and hydras. Of those, i'd only worry about bassys and medusas.

Well, have you kept in mind that TH's can kill Paladins instantly - double strength.

Yes, but every attack I deal kills a guy who doesn't pass his 3++. I also strike first, have ranged attacks, have a higher WS, an extra attack, 2 exctra if I take Falchions, and can get 2+ to wound if a pair of Hammerhands come into it. Not to mention Grand Strategy.

Deadshot wrote:Yes, but every attack I deal kills a guy who doesn't pass his 3++. I also strike first, have ranged attacks, have a higher WS, an extra attack, 2 exctra if I take Falchions, and can get 2+ to wound if a pair of Hammerhands come into it. Not to mention Grand Strategy.

Isn't there competent ranged attack what really sells the Draigowing army? One of the guys on the 11th Company Podcast argues that their main distinction from other hammer-style builds.

I think that a paladin squad's firepower should be seen as a (useful) addition to its considerable assault capability, not as its primary method of reducing the enemy, even (indeed especially) TH/SS terminators because although their shooting is vastly superior, it's not going to reduce them fast enough.

It is firepower that tips the balance against TH/SS terminators because it can reduce them to a level where paladins will win the assault much faster than cyclone missiles whittle down paladins. But tipping the balance isn't the same as 'relying on firepower'.

wuestenfux wrote:

loota boy wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Well, niether does Imperial Plasma weapons of any sort, yet Plasmna seems to a hardf counter to Termikes. And 3 Plasma Cannon shopts from a single weapon, plus another 2 from ther sponsons, ansd whatever you have on the hull, is going to take down even TH/SS. And that is only 1 model.

Yes, but TH/SS termies only have one wound, so str 7 and str 8 feels the same to them. With paladins, all the kills you just made are sliced in half, and probably you get less casualties because of wound allocation. I am far more afriad of demo russes and basalisks then executioners. Besides, no gaurd players really seem to like russes anymore, it's all bassy variants, manticores and hydras. Of those, i'd only worry about bassys and medusas.

Well, have you kept in mind that TH's can kill Paladins instantly - double strength.

Not if my warding staff has anything to say about it.

Like the above posts have said, if you can build it with proper fire support, a draigowing does extremely well

Lacking said support fire, it can get tabled without too much problems.

I am making a draigo wing list atm and it's actually pretty funny the different variety you can do with this as for my Just for Fun messing around and be completely silly list:

2 storm ravens + 2 dreadknights + draigo + liby + like 8 total pallies in 2 squads. 14 total models in a 2k list

I've lost with this list in alot of fights but I just have some odd fun with it.

Wierdly enough though, if you take the same list and kick it up to something like 2500 points and can throw in some autocannon dreads/ven dreads, along with some additionalcheaper scoring units, it starts to kick all sorts of face.

8 paladins?! Divided into 2 squads?! But you get no psycannons!

Well, that can easily work in low points games. I run a 3 man and 2 man squad with Halberds at 1300pts, ansd they do just fine. The 2 men Jump in an shoot something, while Draigo, a Lib and ther other 3 Fly out in the raven, with an Assassin snuiping away for support.

I'm a big fan of paying for the extra guy and 2 Psycannons if we compare a cheap 4-man to a 5-man with upgrades. For 95 points they go from being a deadly CC threat with unimpressive anti-infantry shooting to being insanely dangerous to everything in the game in both phases.

You can easily field Draigo, a Librarian, two squads of 5 tricked-out Paladins, 2 Dreadnoughts with Melta/CC, and 2 Stormravens. The army is fast, hard hitting, and can soak up a lot of hits while dishing out quite a lot of punishment. The downside of using two huge targets becomes a plus as it forces your opponent to divide their attacks or ignore most of your army as they focus down one of your units each turn, which lets you hammer them with everything else fairly unmolested.

SJ

As a Tyranid player, I'm deathly afraid of Draigowing lists in particular and Paladins in general.

The banner that lets every force weapon auto-kill without a test is disgusting, and has been the untimely death of my Carnifexen 1 time too many...

odorofdeath wrote:As a Tyranid player, I'm deathly afraid of Draigowing lists in particular and Paladins in general.

The banner that lets every force weapon auto-kill without a test is disgusting, and has been the untimely death of my Carnifexen 1 time too many...

Is there a list-build option to that?