Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So i was just wondering as i am looking for my 2nd Army ?
It seems Very fun but i just wanted to know befor i spent all that money on termies !
Thank you
Tyler

Fun list to play until the Dark Lances come out of the shadows Nothing better then one shotting expensive troops. (I figured you would find that somewhat amusing as a fellow DE player)

As I said though, very enjoyable list to play, just avoid the Str 8 AP 2 guns or the force weapons.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/401458.page

Blackmoor thinks so, having won a major tournament with them.

I have yet to hear about a GK player winning with purifier spam, but draigowing is becoming more common (that was before blackmoor's win even).

Read a few of the battlereps here on dakka involving draigowing and you can see where they struggle and where they excel.

Draigowing are the best army in the game at killpoint missions and probably the worst at objectives. You won't beat them at kill points unless you wipe them off the board because they start with less KPs then anyone else, and will kill more than their points worth before dying. But in games with 4+ objectives, they struggle just to tie the game, thanks to how few scoring units they can put on the board.

Every army in the game has weapons that can 1 shot them and you will hear players laugh about the idea of knocking them off the board but the truth is that it is incredibly difficult to pull off in a real game. Thanks to draigo and the mandatory librarian, your paladin units are stupidly survivable, even against heavy weapons. Draigo can take shot after shot thanks to eternal warrior and the storm shield, while the librarian can shroud everyone to make them just as tough with a 3+ cover save.

They are a forgiving army because nothing short of a demolisher cannon out in the open can wipe them out in 1 go and they are capable of beating any unit in the game at close combat. IF you can figure out how to handle objective games (there are plenty of ways to do it), you can have a very competitive army.

Bruteboss wrote:Draigowing are the best army in the game at killpoint missions

Blanket statement and in my experiences not true, in fact I find their lack of flexibility makes them easy to beat in Annihilation with mounted shooty armies; take a KP or two and then run away as they try to catch you in assault.

In short, no, they are not competitive.

There are too many armies with high str, low AP weapons that can out range or out maneuver them.

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:Draigowing are the best army in the game at killpoint missions

Blanket statement and in my experiences not true, in fact I find their lack of flexibility makes them easy to beat in Annihilation with mounted shooty armies; take a KP or two and then run away as they try to catch you in assault.

Wow, you are so wrong.

Draigowing is the hardest army to beat in an annihilation mission in the game.

#1. You have never even played against a paladin army if you think you can kill a couple of models and then run. A paladin squad can kill anything with shooting within 30".
#2. Draigo armies are backed up by a lot of psyfleman dreds which are some of the best anti-tank in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alerian wrote:In short, no, they are not competitive.

There are too many armies with high str, low AP weapons that can out range or out maneuver them.

You are wrong. See above. Draigo eats any strength 8 weapons and he has a 3+ inv save, 4 wounds and eternal warrior...good luck killing him. Then with shrouding you can give paladins a 3+ cover save. Even DE who can carry a bunch of it has trouble killing paladins. Your dreds take down the ravagers, and then Draigo takes the solo dark light weapons.

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

With up to 4 psycannons in a 10 man paladin squad, vehicles at range are not that safe. For objective games I usually combat squad the paladins and give a dreadnought the ability to control objectives. In my last game of a tourny ( 5 objectives ) this is what I did and used my storm raven to contest another objective. My opponent was controlling 1 objective to my 3. So it is very possible to win objective games with a draigowing list.

Draigowing has 2 major advantages in tournaments.

#1 People are inexperienced fighting against a well played Draigowing. Draigowings are not a common build, and many of the Draigowing players out there are bad players or new players. IMO the list attracts 1 of 2 types of players: Bad players who are ignorant or willfully ignorant of the weaknesses of Draigowing, or really good players who embrace the challanges that come with playing a difficult build like Draigowing. Run ins with the bad players will leave players thinking Draigowing is a worthless build. Run ins with the good players rarely happen, and will often only happen for the first time in a tournament. Learning how to play against Draigowing in a tournament going up against a guy that has played 100+ games against tough opponents with draigowing means you're playing your opponent's game. The learning curve is sharp and unforgiving.

#2 They came poorly tooled and with a list woefully unsuited to fight Draigowing. Of course by the same logic a draigowing army can run up against an army that is tooled well to kill paladins, but then they can fall back on advantage #1 as the other player probably has little to no experience fighting Draigowing.

Draigowing is like Nob bikers..they are a noob hammer, nothing more.

Remember when everyone was on the Nob Biker bandwagon? Remember when everyone cried about how OP they were? Then...remember how people figured out how to crush Nob Bikers lists, asfter figuring out that they were a one trick pony?

Nob Bikers have gone from being one of the most feared lists to being relegated to a "for fun" list, because people now understand them and are prepared for them. A single unit of Nob Bikers can still be very useful, but an army of them is just asking for a loss.

It is the same cycle for Draigowing. Sure, it looks scary and against novices you will crush some serious face; however, an experieced player will have the tools to pick it apart.

Draigowing is short range, and a good opponent will leave it with the choice of either hugging cover, to gain a 3+ cover save and stay alive, or leave the safety of cover in order to reach the enemy, and die to fire in the open. A good player also stacks more than one high S, low AP shot into units, so that Draigo cannot take all the hits. As for the Psyflemen Dreads..simply tie them up in assault - the only way the Draigowing player can keep keep those dreads shooting is to keep his Pallies near them for counterassault, thus giving the oppoenent the rest of the entire board to maneuver with impunity. People already tend to use the close range units required to kill Draigowing with ease (Firedragons, MeltaVets, Combi-Melta Sterngaurd, etc.), all they need to do now is learn the proper tactics of using them against Draigowing. The same goes for longe range units. The small army size and short range of pallies gives the edge to any opponent who understands how to properly use "fire and maneuver", and unfortuanately for Draigowing players, truely competitive players do understand the concepts.

Yes, at first Draigowing can be scary, but just like Nob Bikers, once people learn how to beat this one-trick-pony, it loses power fast. This makes it a non-competitive army, because truely competitive players study other codexes, practice against all army types, and come prepared. In short, Draigowing does not have the range, size, spead, or vesatility to recover against a competitive player that is prepared for it.

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

Blackmoor wrote:Wow, you are so wrong.

Draigowing is the hardest army to beat in an annihilation mission in the game.

#1. You have never even played against a paladin army if you think you can kill a couple of models and then run. A paladin squad can kill anything with shooting within 30".
#2. Draigo armies are backed up by a lot of psyfleman dreds which are some of the best anti-tank in the game.

Right because nothing can outrange 30" and/or outshoot 3 Dreadnoughts

Your opinions on Draigo-wing are obviously based on your experiences with them; mine of my experiences playing against them, in which case every time my mech armies have had no problem. As for telling me I haven't played against them just because I disagree with you, with all due respect, that is a pathetic argument.

Also regarding them being the hardest army to beat in Annihilation, how so? Deathwing are much sturdier because of their Storm Shields and aren't half as vulnerable to Dark Eldar as Draigo-wing. Similarly a multi-LR army can be devastating in Annihilation to anything without enough Melta. Simple fact is no one army can be the best at Annihilation as it depends on the match-up they are given.

I appreciate your fondness of Draigo-wing due to your success with them, but getting that attached and then basically telling people that your success means their differing opinion isn't valid doesn't do you justice. Fact is most people seem to think Draigo-wing are dodgy, so I'm inclined to think you are just an awesome player.

Draigowings can be ferocious at high points. A unti of Scoring Paladins, a Libby, and a Dread in a Stormraven, and Draigo. Make Draigo, the Libby and Dread scoring therough Grand Strategy, and then you have enough scoring units.

Do you know just how difficult it is to wipe a 5 man unit of paldins and Draigo is, when the libby joins in. you must wipe out the WHOLE unit to clear the objective. Add in the Psyfleman helping and that is 2 units that need cleared. not to metion the overhead Stormraven.

Nice posts godless and alerian.

I would rather take regular gk termies over pally's.

An extra wound, MC ALL weapons, not just 1 guy, an extra wound all around, and the abilty to swap a Strombolter for FNP for the whole squad all around is FAR better than anything the Termies have. And the Apothecary can still shoot with Holocaust.

Paladins are really good, and Draigowing is definitely a competitive army. Are they the best GK build? IMO, no...but they are definitely a beast of an army to contend with.

I play both Draigowing and Crowe-purifier GK's. Of the 2, purifiers are the more balanced army, but Draigowing is more likely to dominate an opponent.

As a matter of fact, a Draigowing build is an intentionally unbalanced army build, just like Nob bikers and nidzilla were in 4th edition 40k. This type of army overloads the shooting and the assault phases (yes, it's a good shooting army). It's weakness? The Movement phase. That's where they can be exploited. Also, as with any unbalanced armies, Draigowing is more matchup dependent than more balanced armies. Play against the right army and Draigowing will table the the opponent. Play against the wrong one and there's a good chance that Draigowing will get tabled themselves. However, Draigowing will matchup well against the majority of army builds out there as long as you have adequate support for them.

I love any tactics thread in which a guy that wins with a list gets told that the army isn't any good.

For the record, I've lost more games with Draigowing due to my own mistakes than due to the inherent weakness of the build. I also run a "pure" build, with 20 pallies, libby, and draigo.

Oh, and I won my hard boys qualifier, and I've lost maybe 20% of my tournament games with them.

Alerian wrote:In short, no, they are not competitive.

There are too many armies with high str, low AP weapons that can out range or out maneuver them.

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

Draigowing is much more durable and competitive than you think.

I had a battle between my Draigowing and FNP Blood Angels with 19 FNP TH/SS terminators and 55 FNP jump marines. In a direct confrontation, my paladins wiped out all 19 assault terminators....and I only lost 2 paladins in the process. (BTW, battle report here.) More dangerous than high-strength, low-AP weaponry to any terminator army is volume of fire. That is something deathwing cannot handle well, but Draigowing can. And with Draigo and a librarian, Draigowing can also absorb high-strength, low-AP fire just as well.

Well......I came in 4th in the Ard Boyz with a Draigowing-ish list. (Not proper Draigowing, since I had tons of otherstuff, but certainly 10 paladins plus Draigo in it.

And another poster here, Zagman, came in 3rd with a true Draigowing army in the Ard Boyz finals. He probably would've done better had he not lost to Necrons in round 1. Lol.

Having recently nearly tabled a local champion (someone who normally thumps me if I play a traditionally 'competitive msu' army) who runs a nasty Imperial Weakling list full of template low-APID, flying twin-linked low AP ID, veteran weakling meltagun ID and more AV12+ than is reasonable with my humble 16 model 2000 point paladin list (his words: 'I haven't been beaten that badly in years'), I'd say paladins are reasonably competitive.

Two reasons:

1) a decently played paladin list is actually really hard to kill

2) people who rely on the standard 5th ed. dogma will probably lose the first few times they run into a decently played paladin list because what you think you know almost always doesn't actually work (look at all the people who claim TH/SS terminators are 'the answer' to paladins in close combat, or the people who smirk knowingly at their massed template ID vehicles pre-game. Three turns in they're desperately trying to fathom why it is they're losing...).

Obviously a paladin list can be beaten. No sensible person would argue with that. There are a few lists that a paladin force would find extraordinarily difficult to beat. A paladin foce must be played by someone who understands how the army works and who can prioritise his targets properly. It's unforgiving. If you make a mistake, you'reprobably in trouble. Two mistakes and you are. Three mistakes and you'll probably get tabled. That's mistakes anywhere from deployment/reserving choices through GS choice and onwards. But an unforgiving army is not weak. To think it is invites hubris.

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

I think you have a different definition of Draigowing then Blackmoor, which might be why you aren't seeing eye to eye. A list that is draigo and palladins and nothing else is crap, but that's not the 'Draigowing' people (eg blackmoor and others) are using.

Let me ask a question. Draigo (and Crowe ith Purifiers), sday that Pladins/Purifiers are troopps. Does this mean that they may not be taken as Elites then? If so, run a SR/Psyfleman/Paldin list with a Shrouding Libby.

winterman wrote:

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

I think you have a different definition of Draigowing then Blackmoor, which might be why you aren't seeing eye to eye. A list that is draigo and palladins and nothing else is crap, but that's not the 'Draigowing' people (eg blackmoor and others) are using.

I'd disagree that a pure palidin list is crap.

But, hey, i play the list and win with it. what do I know?

If Draigo is taken, Paladins are troop choices (and may not be taken as elites).

If Crowe is taken, Purifiers are troop choices (and may not be taken as elites).

If Coteaz is taken, Weaklings are troop choices (and may not be taken as elites).

Personally I'm of the opinion that at 2000 pts Draigo, Librarian, 2x5 paladins, 2 Venerable Dreanoughts, 2 Sormravens is the best paladin build but that's probaly because it suits my style and I'm familiar with it.

Polonius wrote:

winterman wrote:

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

I think you have a different definition of Draigowing then Blackmoor, which might be why you aren't seeing eye to eye. A list that is draigo and palladins and nothing else is crap, but that's not the 'Draigowing' people (eg blackmoor and others) are using.

I'd disagree that a pure palidin list is crap.

But, hey, i play the list and win with it. what do I know?

I concur. However, I do prefer add-in like LRs and SRs and Dreads, to give myself a few more options.

Draigo-wings can be very competitive if played well, if you can account for the pitfalls of having a low model count. They have a lot of leverage, able to displace much larger armies due to their concentrated strength.

Yes, draigo-wings can be broken with good saturation. For every model you lose, in say a 20 model Draigo wing, you're losing 5% of your total firepower.

Target priority becomes your most important consideration when running a DW, and for that, i like to keep a vindicare in mine, both to heatsink and remove ID guns/pop heavy armor.

Despite the low model count it's still going to run you $300+ to build one at 2000 points.

Polonius wrote:

winterman wrote:

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

I think you have a different definition of Draigowing then Blackmoor, which might be why you aren't seeing eye to eye. A list that is draigo and palladins and nothing else is crap, but that's not the 'Draigowing' people (eg blackmoor and others) are using.

I'd disagree that a pure palidin list is crap.

But, hey, i play the list and win with it. what do I know?

Fair enough. Armchair quarterbacking in this case, so I concede the point to that plays the list I should say the list would be crap in my hands against the armies I see locally and the missions we play.

jy2 wrote:And another poster here, Zagman, came in 3rd with a true Draigowing army in the Ard Boyz finals. He probably would've done better had he not lost to Necrons in round 1. Lol.

This is just so wrong on so many levels for a 'pro draigo wing' post, it's not even funny.

Deadshot wrote:Make Draigo, the Libby and Dread scoring therough Grand Strategy, and then you have enough scoring units.

IC's cannot be targeted by Grand Strategy.

Its not as "wrong" as you might imagine. One of the toughest armies to face against for draigowing is Tau and its often the under performers like that which really give them trouble.

In terms of facing (old) necrons, I've got 1 word for you: monoliths. A smart necron player that parks his army behind the monoliths is going to make paladins (and GK in general) cry. We really lack the strength 9-10 weapons it takes to shoot those things down and our only option is daemonhammers, which the necron player is probably fully aware of. Being shot at by an army you can't damage back until you reach close combat is one of the reasons necrons give this list headaches.

But that will all be a thing of the past in a week or 2

Edit: but my real point in all of this is that paladins do very well against the newest, top tier armies. GK just has a strange quirk where its toughest fights are against the old books like that.

Actually, I would think DE and 30 hamminators + libby would be a huge pain for draigo wing to deal with.

And that's just for starters.