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Artemo wrote:and mindstrikes will have removed any supporting librarian from the TH/SS list well before assault is reached

Assumptions such as this one have no place in a valid argument, especially given the other factors to this. There is scatter to consider, as well as the Librarian's invulnerable save (even with a forced re-roll a SS is a pretty sound defense).

The only way for a Libby to get an invulnerable, is TDA, in which case it is a 5++( which musdt be rerolled), or a SS for even more points. Basically you have a 1/9 chance and a 4/9 chance to avoid the wound repectively, and the points don't always allow for this.

4 mindstrikes fired as a single defensive volley will force 2 perils saves even allowing for higher than average scatter. Monst armies only take 1 wound librarian, and he is often only in power armour. In my experience, fielding 2 ravens means even if a Librarian hides in a Rhino, his chance of surviving to turn 3 is very small. In the specific case of a TH/SS list, the librarian is likely to have Force Barrier which gives him a better chance of surviving a volley from one raven but won't help him much against a joint volley (plus plasma cannon attacks against any accompanying unit of course).

Libbies have 2 wounds. Except the Lord of Death, Mephiston, who has an obscene 5.

I actually meant to write one 2 wound librarian, sorry. Regardless. 8 mindstrikes will total most lists psychic threat, and a TH/SS list's psyker options don't allow sufficient safeguard.

No it certainly doesn't. GK basically shut down any army with psykers. The only army to be an exception is GK themselvesa, then it is a fair fight.

Good conversation.

When running stormravens, is it better to use the tl-plasma cannons or the tl-assault cannons?

The only way for a Libby to get an invulnerable, is TDA, in which case it is a 5++( which musdt be rerolled), or a SS for even more points. Basically you have a 1/9 chance and a 4/9 chance to avoid the wound repectively, and the points don't always allow for this.

Or you could sit him inside that land raider the TH/SS decided to bring along and spew null zone till the end of time. Minimizes the effect of mindstrikes quite nicely, I find. Won't help you an iota if you can't roll LD10, though.

When running stormravens, is it better to use the tl-plasma cannons or the tl-assault cannons?

I use the assault cannons myself. Better against light vehicles than the plasma cannon, wounds MEQ on a 2+ like the plasma cannons, and with the abundance of good ++ saves or cover, I find the AP rarely makes an appearance at ranges far enough away where I feel confident I wont scatter into my own men.

I personally went with modelling the LC, but if I need to, such as when facing Bolbish Guard, Nid hordes or Green Tides, I simply don't note down on my list that I have given it TL LC, so it can have an Assault Cannon.

I think the Las is better forNidzilla and Mech, and is a nice complement to the compulsary MM. Where else will you find a 24" move with a TL MM, which only recieves 1D6 from Melta itself, and if it dies, drops a Dreadnought and up to 12 Infantry or 6 JI or Trmies into your opponent?

In a recent 1500 tournament, I faced a DW army with a small Draigo-wing army (mainly because all my other models had been packed before deployment). My opponent had two bike squads, and the rest was Termies w/Cyclones (mix of TH/SS and LCs) and the command squad in TDA w/ apothecary. I had Draigo, a Librarian, ten paladins w/apothecary, banner, psybolts, and two psycannons (All I had at the time), a Vindicare, and seven strikes with a psycannon to round out the points.

Short version, one bike squad got too close, destroyed in CC, second one only had melta biker left, who only put one wound on Draigo the entire game, and the terminators spent the entire game running away, while taking potshots at the strike squad. By the end of the game, he had killed the strike squad, the vendicare, and put three wounds on draigo, and three on the squad( two coming from whiffing agains a Krak) , in return for losing 1 bike squad, all but 1 bike from the other, two terminator squads, and all but the command squad missing at least 2-3 terminators.

Shrivan, nicely done. Draigowing seems to be scary even for a (fearless) DW army.

Bruteboss wrote:Its not as "wrong" as you might imagine. One of the toughest armies to face against for draigowing is Tau and its often the under performers like that which really give them trouble.

In terms of facing (old) necrons, I've got 1 word for you: monoliths. A smart necron player that parks his army behind the monoliths is going to make paladins (and GK in general) cry. We really lack the strength 9-10 weapons it takes to shoot those things down and our only option is daemonhammers, which the necron player is probably fully aware of. Being shot at by an army you can't damage back until you reach close combat is one of the reasons necrons give this list headaches.

I have two words for you: Psycannon's Rend.

Draigowing is a joke, other than the unit draigo is in (he is fearless after all), you can tank shock paladins and make them run off the board since they aren't fearless, combine that with all the instant death inflicting weapons they are vulnerable to, it gets silly.

IdentifyZero wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:Its not as "wrong" as you might imagine. One of the toughest armies to face against for draigowing is Tau and its often the under performers like that which really give them trouble.

In terms of facing (old) necrons, I've got 1 word for you: monoliths. A smart necron player that parks his army behind the monoliths is going to make paladins (and GK in general) cry. We really lack the strength 9-10 weapons it takes to shoot those things down and our only option is daemonhammers, which the necron player is probably fully aware of. Being shot at by an army you can't damage back until you reach close combat is one of the reasons necrons give this list headaches.

I have two words for you: Psycannon's Rend.

I have two words for you: Living Metal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ivangterrace wrote:Draigowing is a joke, other than the unit draigo is in (he is fearless after all), you can tank shock paladins and make them run off the board since they aren't fearless, combine that with all the instant death inflicting weapons they are vulnerable to, it gets silly.

Yeah, because tank shocking a unit with Ld 10 is a reliable way to kill them...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

I have two words for you: Psycannon's Rend.

I have two words for you: Living Metal.

And as of today, as far as Living Metal goes, I have two words: Quite Useless

Shivan Reaper wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

I have two words for you: Psycannon's Rend.

I have two words for you: Living Metal.

And as of today, as far as Living Metal goes, I have two words: Quite Useless

We weren't talking about the new 'Dex though, were we?

We are now. It sucks. its basically like an uped version of Extra Armour.

On a 2+ you ignore the Shaken result you just suffered, and ignore the stunned on a 4+.

My friend actually wants to go back to the old Dex with Invulnerable ignoring Warscythes and C'tan, and tougher Warriors.

And better looking Flayed Ones.

No, don't go back to the old 'dex. C'tans did not do a lot in the old codex and I don't remember that a warscythe ever did much damage. Warriors in the new 'dex are a bargain as they are cheaper now and can eventually come back.

He is annoyed that Warscythes don't ignore invulnerables. Yesterday on a thread called Beat this Unit, someone put down a Archon with a shadowfield 2++ save. I put down a Necron Lord with Warscythe and Res orb. Ignores that 2++.

Now it is a +2 Str, power weapon.

Deadshot wrote:He is annoyed that Warscythes don't ignore invulnerables. Yesterday on a thread called Beat this Unit, someone put down a Archon with a shadowfield 2++ save. I put down a Necron Lord with Warscythe and Res orb. Ignores that 2++.

Now it is a +2 Str, power weapon.

Its good as it is now. There are not many weapons out there ignoring inv saves. I remember that CSM had a dread axe to be carried by a DP, this was a bit too bold.

Old Warscthes, Old C'tan, Old Psycannons, Old DP.

They've truly made it an invulnerable save. Only a select few things ignore them, eg Warp Rift, Vortex Weapons, JOTWW.

Blackmoor wrote:

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

I recently took part in the Throne Of Skulls GT in Nottingham a month ago with an all Thundernator Deathwing army and managed to win Best Dark Angel and come 5th overall. The 3rd game I played was against a Grey Knight army which had a low model count and although it wasn't Draigowing it looked very much like one and he conceded turn 4 because he couldn't win. Here's a good example of how well the game went.

He killed a grant total of 3 models in my army over the space of 3 turns and that was to Storm Bolter fire from basic PA Grey Knight squads. He fired 2 Storm Ravens, 2 Rifleman Dreads, and 2 GKT Squads into Belials unit and killed none. The same turn he charged both units of Terminators in and bounced. My Librarian and 2 Terminators killed 1 unit of GKT with Belial and the rest consolidating his 2nd unit of GKT off the board.

He conceded at the end of that assault and also the same guy won Best Grey Knight player.

I've yet to play against a Draigowing army using my Deathwing but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

Fair enough you may strike before me in melee but my Inv save is better and I have more chance of killing you and countering your Paladins.

ThaPlayah wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

I recently took part in the Throne Of Skulls GT in Nottingham a month ago with an all Thundernator Deathwing army and managed to win Best Dark Angel and come 5th overall. The 3rd game I played was against a Grey Knight army which had a low model count and although it wasn't Draigowing it looked very much like one and he conceded turn 4 because he couldn't win. Here's a good example of how well the game went.

He killed a grant total of 3 models in my army over the space of 3 turns and that was to Storm Bolter fire from basic PA Grey Knight squads. He fired 2 Storm Ravens, 2 Rifleman Dreads, and 2 GKT Squads into Belials unit and killed none. The same turn he charged both units of Terminators in and bounced. My Librarian and 2 Terminators killed 1 unit of GKT with Belial and the rest consolidating his 2nd unit of GKT off the board.

He conceded at the end of that assault and also the same guy won Best Grey Knight player.

I've yet to play against a Draigowing army using my Deathwing but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

Fair enough you may strike before me in melee but my Inv save is better and I have more chance of killing you and countering your Paladins.

This is all well and good, but the list you are discribing doesn't actaully contain any paladins. GK termies are, in my opinion, not that great, and are outpreformed by strike squads in most ways. So while you've shown that dark angels can cope with GK just fine, you don't know how it does against actual draigowing.

Not to mention that, honestly, there's not a lot of armies that do well against TH/SS terminators

LR Executioner IG. Beats any Termy heavy list. What about Plasma Rifle Tau?

Deadshot wrote:LR Executioner IG. Beats any Termy heavy list. What about Plasma Rifle Tau?

Executioner cannot id paladins, so are largely ineffective, same for plasma rifle tau.

Deadshot wrote:LR Executioner IG. Beats any Termy heavy list. What about Plasma Rifle Tau?

Imperial Guard are the exception, because their book has a hard counter to everything.

Well, niether does Imperial Plasma weapons of any sort, yet Plasmna seems to a hardf counter to Termikes. And 3 Plasma Cannon shopts from a single weapon, plus another 2 from ther sponsons, ansd whatever you have on the hull, is going to take down even TH/SS. And that is only 1 model.

Deadshot wrote:Well, niether does Imperial Plasma weapons of any sort, yet Plasmna seems to a hardf counter to Termikes. And 3 Plasma Cannon shopts from a single weapon, plus another 2 from ther sponsons, ansd whatever you have on the hull, is going to take down even TH/SS. And that is only 1 model.

Yes, but TH/SS termies only have one wound, so str 7 and str 8 feels the same to them. With paladins, all the kills you just made are sliced in half, and probably you get less casualties because of wound allocation. I am far more afriad of demo russes and basalisks then executioners. Besides, no gaurd players really seem to like russes anymore, it's all bassy variants, manticores and hydras. Of those, i'd only worry about bassys and medusas.