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My point is be careful how hard you want to push. The idea of a lawsuit would make me want to say fine, we will no longer accept those of another faith. We are sorry it has come to this but understand we are paying the bills for this institution with an idea or belief behind it. If you don't like the idea or belief then I guess you had better go elsewhere. Sadly our diversity suffers for it.

@Howard: If you're willing to give someone money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of effort to get along with the tenor of the place so that everyone can get along better.

Manchu wrote:@Howard: If you're willing to give someone money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of effort to get along with the tenor of the place so that everyone can get along better.

I accept that. My point is that it works both ways.

They are making 'some sort of effort' to fit in with the place are they not? They aren't asking that all the crosses are ripped out, they haven't shown any antagonism I can see towards the christian practice in the place, they aren't trying to change the core values of the place. They just want a plain room in which to pray. And they want a Muslim society like the jewish society and other societies. Wow, that's really anti social of them.

I really don't see the muslims as being the unreasonable ones here, it's the University who appear to not be accommodating. The university claim “Our faithfulness to our Catholic tradition has also made us a welcome home to students of other religions" so really they should try to live up to that if they are charging people to come and study there.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Why even accept their applications then? If you're willing to take someone's money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of an effort to cooperate with them so that everyone can get along a bit better.

Go to the school's website: http://www.cua.edu/catholic-identity/ is a good place to start.

I think it is safe to assume that they will accept anyone who meets their criteria, but they expect their students ot understand what the whole CUA experience is about and attend with in that environment vice insist the very well established environment change.

Howard A Treesong wrote:They are making 'some sort of effort' to fit in with the place are they not? They aren't asking that all the crosses are ripped out ...

Fitting in at a Catholic school means that you don't ask that any of the crosses be ripped out.

They just want a plain room in which to pray. And they want a Muslim society like the jewish society and other societies. Wow, that's really anti social of them.

Actually, if by "they" you mean "the Muslim students at CUA" then no, they don't want either of those things. The spokesperson I quoted earlier said there have been no student complaints. And the girl who founded the Arab Students Association said that she has no problems at CUA at all, regarding being Arab or Muslim.

I really don't see the muslims as being the unreasonable ones here, it's the University who appear to not be accommodating.

There's no question as to CUA being accommodating. In fact, that is beside the point. CUA need not be accommodating to Muslim students using its infrastructure for Muslim worship and/or devotions and there is no reason that it should be.

Clearly a culture clash here. In the UK you can't offer services to the public without showing you don't discriminate. Religion gets a fair bit of leeway but you probably wouldn't be allowed to encourage people to apply, take money from them and then not offer something as basic as a neutral place for students of other faiths to pray.

But there's no switch-and-bait. You paid to go to a Catholic school.

Can you imagine showing up at Mass with friends and asking for a place to quietly read the Koran (no cruciifx on the wall please!)?

Well Lordohats:
1. The lawyers knows this is BS and he's looking for a headline not real government intervention

And I never talked about the lawyer. I talked about the validity of Muslim students asking a Catholic institution that they pay to attend if they can use a room and have Catholic symbols void from that space.

2. The Catholic school may not NEED a cross or icon in every room, but they have every RIGHT to have one.

Why do you assume I think they'd don't have a right?

3. Go downtown and ask St. Joe's to remove the icons from every room and stop giving the daily prayers. They'd be well within thier rights to laugh in your face, even if they probably won't.

Generally speaking, unless you attend a mega-church, Christian services are free and you don't pay to attend. You don't have to pay to attend them, and you don't live in the Church like you do at a university (I assume they live on the campus anyway, maybe they don't).

When you utilize services from a Catholic institution you accept the Catholic tradition will be present. You shouldn't attempt to alter that institution, and if yo do they have the right to deny you thier services.

They aren't trying to get rid of Catholic in Catholic school. They just want a room.

I've never talked about forcing Catholic schools to allow worship of other religions on their grounds despite what everyone seems to be assuming, I'm talking just about the request. The request isn't outrageous nor is it ridiculous. The school can say no and that's not outrageous either.

I merely commented that it would be nice if the school allowed it which is my opinion. It's just one room. I don't see the big deal in that. I go to a secular state funded school and I appreciate that space is provided for religious student groups. I'd wish that consideration on anyone, even at a Catholic school. The difference is that the Catholic school has a legal right (I assume) to refuse, and being a Catholic school, it's not a silly stance to take. It's not my preference but that's they're choice and right apparently.

Manchu wrote:@Howard: If you're willing to give someone money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of effort to get along with the tenor of the place so that everyone can get along better.

How is requesting the use of a room devoid of crosses and pictures of Jesus disruptive to everyone getting along? The refusal can be equally disruptive (like getting you on the news or reported for violating civil rights by some random lawyer).

Manchu wrote:Fitting in at a Catholic school means that you don't ask that any of the crosses be ripped out.

Then why is Notre Dame allowed to grant tacit support to a President who contravenes Catholic doctrine?

Manchu wrote:
CUA need not be accommodating to Muslim students using its infrastructure for Muslim worship and/or devotions and there is no reason that it should be.

Well, there are reasons, they just aren't necessary ones.

How is requesting the use of a room devoid of crosses and pictures of Jesus disruptive to everyone getting along?

its a CATHOLIC school.

Manchu wrote:
Can you imagine showing up at Mass with friends and asking for a place to quietly read the Koran (no cruciifx on the wall please!)?

And now I know what I'm doing on Sunday.

dogma wrote:

Manchu wrote:
Can you imagine showing up at Mass with friends and asking for a place to quietly read the Koran (no cruciifx on the wall please!)?

And now I know what I'm doing on Sunday.

You might bring your track shoes...

Frazzled wrote:
its a CATHOLIC school.

And I went to a Presbyterian school that ranked highly (maybe even 1st, I don't recall) in the "Most Godless" list that Princeton Review publishes.


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Frazzled wrote:
You might bring your track shoes...

Oh, I assure you, I'm an experienced IRL troll.

Frazzled wrote:its a CATHOLIC school.

And therefore, what?

I attended two semesters of divinity classes at a school funded and owned by the Southern Baptist Coalition. They had a Muslim professor who taught Islamic religion in the department. Being Catholic is not the same as being anti-Muslim. They can choose to grant such a request, or they can refuse. The refusal doesn't even necessarily make one anti-Muslim, nor would granting it necessarily make you pro-Muslim.

I go to a secular school. There are student groups for every religion (there are four for Christians) except of Hinduism and all those ones no one has ever heard of.

I don't know why it's even being discussed.

It's a private school, they're extremely Catholic and like having their iconography displayed. If this is an issue for someone, why not go to any of the many schools that don't fit that description?

It just smacks of some more of that IRL trolling.

Religion sure seems like a lot of fun. All that getting offended by innocuous things....


...There's other stuff, right?

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
its a CATHOLIC school.

And I went to a Presbyterian school that ranked highly (maybe even 1st, I don't recall) in the "Most Godless" list that Princeton Review publishes.


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Frazzled wrote:
You might bring your track shoes...

Oh, I assure you, I'm an experienced IRL troll.

Nah. You haven't lived until some old fart's hearing aid starts having a reverb with the sound system and doing a high pitched whine that starts multiple babies screaming . And that was a Bishop.

LordofHats wrote:How is requesting the use of a room devoid of crosses and pictures of Jesus disruptive to everyone getting along?

If it's anything like the school I went to, there are a few rooms without a crucifix: janitor's closet and bathrooms. Now, clearly, these aren't appropriate for prayer. All rooms that are appropriate for prayer have a crucifix on the wall -- you know, because Catholic may want to pray there. The issue is not whether Muslims can or cannot pray in that same room. Catholics prefer to have a crucifix on a wall to facilitate their Catholic devotions at a Catholic school. It's a Catholic space. Muslims offended by the crucifx are simply out of luck.

Monster Rain wrote:I don't know why it's even being discussed.

It's a private school, they're extremely Catholic and like having their iconography displayed. If this is an issue for someone, why not go to any of the many schools that don't fit that description?

It just smacks of some more of that IRL trolling.

Ironically, large numbers of Muslims do like attending Catholic and other Christian schools. Someone, Corpse I think, mentioned previously that they do it because they think the morals (and in many cases the education itself) are superior to other institutions. To add to that, Christian schools, tend to be higher quality and have less strict entrance requirements than some secular schools. Some non-Christians actually attend these schools for the same reasons.

Why don't they form a school for Muslims? Try finding a way to finance that project. You can't start a university on wishes and a dream. It takes a lot of financial backing, and I'm unsure if that exists in the US for such a small minority as the American Muslim population.

It is a little of a culture blame, the Anglicans. The reconciliation and guarantee of religious freedoms in this country established a tradition of non-interference with religious institutions so long as they didn't harm anyone elses rights. The UKs experience with religion has been more...public, and somewhat more turbulent. But it's suffice to say that certain rights that guarantee religious freedom also guarantee that the institutions cannot be forced to give up thier religious traditions just because they offer a service to thier parishioners.
The catholic church could sustain you from cradle to grave in a catholic hospital, Orphanage, primary school, secondary school, university, the church itself, back to the hospital, and interred in a catholic tomb. At no step in that process is the churc required to open it's doors to non Catholics, when it does it does so out of charity, which in it's own way is an extension of thier free practice of religion...

dogma wrote:Then why is Notre Dame allowed to grant tacit support to a President who contravenes Catholic doctrine?

You mean JFK or Barack Obama?


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dogma wrote:

Manchu wrote:CUA need not be accommodating to Muslim students using its infrastructure for Muslim worship and/or devotions and there is no reason that it should be.

Well, there are reasons, they just aren't necessary ones.

Yes, sorry, that's more accurate.

LordofHats wrote:To add to that, Christian schools, tend to be higher quality and have less strict entrance requirements than some secular schools. Some non-Christians actually attend these schools for the same reasons.

Whatever their reasons for attending, it doesn't change the fact that the school is a private institution and should be allowed to continue to do things the way that they want to. Insert legal/ethical qualifier here for the pedantry brigade.

Monster Rain wrote:Whatever their reasons for attending, it doesn't change the fact that the school is a private institution and should be allowed to continue to do things the way that they want to.

No one is saying they can't do it the way they want to. All I've ever argued is that asking isn't stupid or some diabolical plot to take over the world and destroy all Catholicism. All they asked for was a room, not the Pope's hat on a platter.

Yeah, I get that.

I'm just saying that it seems kind of goofy to go into a Catholic place and complain about all the crucifixes.

LordofHats wrote:All I've ever argued is that asking isn't stupid or some diabolical plot to take over the world and destroy all Catholicism. All they asked for was a room, not the Pope's hat on a platter.

All anyone here, besides you, has been talking about is a room.

Well, in truth there was some discussion of whether Darth Pope or Pope Maul was involved.

LordofHats wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Whatever their reasons for attending, it doesn't change the fact that the school is a private institution and should be allowed to continue to do things the way that they want to.

No one is saying they can't do it the way they want to. All I've ever argued is that asking isn't stupid or some diabolical plot to take over the world and destroy all Catholicism. All they asked for was a room, not the Pope's hat on a platter.

And all we're saying is that the owner of the school oddly enough the Catholic Church has every right to say no, because tha. Does not conform with Catholic practices.
The FIRST section of the student code is:
Authentic Catholic community is born of deliberate ongoing commitment from every student to live in accordance with Catholic values and expectations...Students who enroll at the University assume an obligation to conduct themselves in a manner compatible with the University’s interests as a Catholic educational institution.

AustonT wrote:And all we're saying is that the owner of the school oddly enough the Catholic Church has every right to say no,

So then why are we banging our heads into the wall? Read:

No one is saying they can't do it the way they want to.

When and where did I argue that the room must be provided? This has been applied to me for four pages now, and it's ridiculous. I never said the school had to do it. I stated my personal preference for what be done and that's it. Why are people arguing with me about a position I don't hold? I stated my position clearly on page two of this thread:

I'm not saying they have to do it I'm saying it would be nice of them if they did and that a Muslim student isn't an idiot for making the request for use of a simple room.

Reading comprehension is simple when you actually read.

LordofHats wrote: Reading comprehension is simple when you actually read

Sho is boss. 4 pages ago in the original post a linked article said that the only one making these claims is a well known lawyer and the school had received no complaints.

LordofHats wrote:I'm saying it would be nice of them if they did and that a Muslim student isn't an idiot for making the request for use of a simple room.

To be fair, people who accused Muslims students of being foolish for accepting a place at a Catholic university and then complaining about there being a crucifix on a wall in every room suitable for prayer are right. That is foolish. To continue being fair, people who thought that was what was going on in this case did actually read ... they read the title of the thread.