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This thread makes me sad.

A lot of muslims go to catholic schools because they feel they teach children better morals than secular schools.

dogma wrote:My thinking was that if Catholic school X has catholic icons in all possible Muslim prayer spaces, and you're Muslim and would like a prayer space at school, there seems to be no reason that you shouldn't attempt to acquire one by the alteration of school policy; ie. asking for a room without a Catholic icon.

I disagree. I would not, for example, ask to sleep overnight at your house and then, upon receiving your hospitality, ask that you remove any objects that offended my religious sensibilities from the room or, at the very least, give me a room in which there were no such objects.

It seems no more discourteous than a Catholic student, at a Catholic University, petitioning the administration for a change in policy regarding the presence of more Catholic icons.

I think that's rather different inasmuch as I can only imagine petitioning more icons in harmony with further promoting the school's Catholic idenity -- for example, asking that another grotto or something be set up. Now if someone wanted to set up some icons not in harmony with that identity -- like icons of SSPX schismatics or something similar -- I would think of that as discourteous.

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:

Manchu wrote:I think he meant as a matter of courtesy. Of course, if you really believe that you have the only truth then it's pretty "courteous" in a strained sense to attempt to infiltrate and subvert false institutions. But I don't think that's what Muslims attending CUA are up to.

My thinking was that if Catholic school X has catholic icons in all possible Muslim prayer spaces, and you're Muslim and would like a prayer space at school, there seems to be no reason that you shouldn't attempt to acquire one by the alteration of school policy; ie. asking for a room without a Catholic icon.

It seems no more discourteous than a Catholic student, at a Catholic University, petitioning the administration for a change in policy regarding the presence of more Catholic icons.

Except of course the school is being sued by an outstider.

Agreed, ASK and perhaps we can have a discussion. Sue and I will kick your butt out of my school and wish you all the best at starting your Muslim school if neither a public or Catholic school fits your desires.

Would I be a Catholic member supporting this school I would be tempted to issue a counter-suit of breech of contract on the school. Not to get any money but to provide them some backbone. Kick them out of school and strengthen the handbooks or permission slips to make this a non-issue in the future.

Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.

This post is in violation of DakkaDakka Rule Number One. Please avoid posting things like this in the future. Thanks! ~Manchu

Relapse wrote:Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.

They appear to be asking for a single room without crosses in which to pray. Also they have not been allowed to 'form a Muslim student group'.

Neither of these requests are unreasonable. It's not that they are 'offended' by the sight of crosses as per this thread title, they just want a single room without crosses so they can do their worship. Also, I don't see why they are not allowed to form a student group like others. That is straight forward discrimination.

I don't get why people think they are so unreasonable. If you're offering a service like education in which you claim to be open to all faiths, it's hardly unreasonable for those attending to expect a little bit of cooperation in this regard. They aren't asking the earth.

warpcrafter wrote:Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.

And again IT'S NOT THE MUSLIM STUDENTS DOING ANYTHING.

A lawyer who is essentially an Ambulance Chaser but with anything to do with what might offend other parties is demanding it for people who never asked him to do anything and have gone on the record saying that they're happy with the school.

warpcrafter wrote:Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.

You don't have it right. A nationally famous class action attorney famous for such things as "potty equity" is making allegations to a human rights commissio of discrimination. If read carefully, there's nothing in the article that says students are supporting the action (which is weird). The actual complaint, may however, say otherwise.

warpcrafter wrote:Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.

To put it in layman's terms. I believe in widgets enough that me and my friends willingly put up hard earned dollars to make a widget factory. Now you believe in gadgets but still willingly join our widget factory. Now you have a choice, politely ask if you can tinker with gadgets in a room at the widget factory or go the full-blown legal route and slap us with a lawsuit demanding that the widget factory must allow for gadget believers as long as we allow gadget believers to work there.

I will then meet with the lawyer and inform him that we will indeed comply with this ruling (assuming it works) and fire any gadget fanatic that currently goes to the widget factory. I will sincerely wish you the best at starting up your own gadget factory.

Vulcan wrote:It's a Catholic insitution. If you aren't even Catholic, what the heck are you doing there? It's like going to an American ballpark and being offended they serve hot dogs. If it bothers you that much, why did you go there in the first place?

The busybody needs to get a hobby, preferably one that doesn't involve sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. If the Muslim students aren't complaining, then why is he?

I suspect the Muslim students believe the quality of the education makes it attractive.

As someone who went to Catholic grade schools that had Jewish and Protestant students who not only chose to go there, but to pony up the tuition (well, at least their parents did) I think there may be something to that train of thought.

The real issue is what doesn't some Muslim organization declare the Muslim students appostates? They obviously are submitting to another religion by paying tuition at that school.

Platuan4th wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:Weeeel, now lemme get this right, one bunch of delusionals go to a school run by another bunch of delusionals and they immediately get back into the old "My imaginary friend is cooler than yours game", and anybody is surprised. Besides, Muslims are known for being aggressively whiny.

And again IT'S NOT THE MUSLIM STUDENTS DOING ANYTHING.

A lawyer who is essentially an Ambulance Chaser but with anything to do with what might offend other parties is demanding it for people who never asked him to do anything and have gone on the record saying that they're happy with the school.

indeed correct.

Further, what is reasonable would be defined by the religous institution, not someone else.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Relapse wrote:Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.

They appear to be asking for a single room without crosses in which to pray. Also they have not been allowed to 'form a Muslim student group'.

Neither of these requests are unreasonable. It's not that they are 'offended' by the sight of crosses as per this thread title, they just want a single room without crosses so they can do their worship. Also, I don't see why they are not allowed to form a student group like others. That is straight forward discrimination.

I don't get why people think they are so unreasonable. If you're offering a service like education in which you claim to be open to all faiths, it's hardly unreasonable for those attending to expect a little bit of cooperation in this regard. They aren't asking the earth.

What part of 'it's a Catholic school' is unclear? The school was established to teach Catholic beliefs alongside of college staples. 'Along side of', not 'along with these other options'. It's like going to a barbeque restaurant and trying to get them not to serve pork because it's against your religion. YOUR religion doesn't matter, it's the religion of the owner. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other options - kosher delis for restaurants; non-denominational schools for colleges.

corpsesarefun wrote:This thread makes me sad.

A lot of muslims go to catholic schools because they feel they teach children better morals than secular schools.

There an open market here for someone to start the Islamic University of America. Clearly the Muslim community cries out for a moral education in the Muslim faith.

AustonT wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:This thread makes me sad.

A lot of muslims go to catholic schools because they feel they teach children better morals than secular schools.

There an open market here for someone to start the Islamic University of America. Clearly the Muslim community cries out for a moral education in the Muslim faith.

Here is a grade school: http://www.saudiacademy.net/

And a university: http://www.islamicau.org/static/

And another: http://www.zaytunacollege.org/

I question the veracity of anything reported on Fox News.

BrassScorpion wrote:I question the veracity of anything reported on Fox News.

http://www.cuatower.com/news/2011/10/20/university-accused-of-discriminating-against-muslims/

That's what the kids at CUA have to say about it.

Manchu wrote:I disagree. I would not, for example, ask to sleep overnight at your house and then, upon receiving your hospitality, ask that you remove any objects that offended my religious sensibilities from the room or, at the very least, give me a room in which there were no such objects.

But a school is not a house, and is not run in the same way. Notably, I might not seek to invite people to my home as a matter of course, while schools certainly do invite people to attend as a matter of course.

More directly, if, as guest, you are uncomfortable in my home for whatever reason, it is not necessarily discourteous to ask that your lack of comfort be attended to if the request is not overly demanding.

Manchu wrote:
I think that's rather different inasmuch as I can only imagine petitioning more icons in harmony with further promoting the school's Catholic idenity -- for example, asking that another grotto or something be set up. Now if someone wanted to set up some icons not in harmony with that identity -- like icons of SSPX schismatics or something similar -- I would think of that as discourteous.

The school I went to was ostensibly Presbyterian, but carried an image that entailed secularism, or outright atheism. Would it be discourteous for a student to request more Christian (Presbyterian) icons in that case? Or for another student to request the absence of a chapel?

The point being that, even if a school is X, it is not necessarily disrespectful or discourteous to request a concession to something that is not X. Certainly there are disrespectful ways of going about doing so, but the request itself does not carry that meaning (unless the request is something like "You're all morons, ergo I request that you leave this place").

CptJake wrote:

AustonT wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:This thread makes me sad.

A lot of muslims go to catholic schools because they feel they teach children better morals than secular schools.

There an open market here for someone to start the Islamic University of America. Clearly the Muslim community cries out for a moral education in the Muslim faith.

Here is a grade school: http://www.saudiacademy.net/

And a university: http://www.islamicau.org/static/

And another: http://www.zaytunacollege.org/

Well then my heart fair bleeds for them that attend Catholic Uni.
Also I feel another prime business opportunity has escaped my grasps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrassScorpion wrote:I question the veracity of anything reported on Fox News.

I guess you should wait for Rachel Maddow to report on it then weigh in.

BrassScorpion wrote:I question the veracity of anything reported on Fox News.

But I bet you hold up Soros sponsored orgs like mediamatters and moveon and huffypuffy as paragons of journalistic virtue?

Where do you get the brass ...oh. okay.

Best,

Oh look, another thread about who is liberal, and who is conservative. The white raven has landed, election season has arrived.

dogma wrote:But a school is not a house, and is not run in the same way.

True, it's only a mataphor but I think the similarities cover what is important in this case. The school in this instance, like one's home, is not a space that is open to definition by all parties who may possibly attend. The way CUA decorates it's buildings, similar to the way one decorates one's home, reflects a certain set of values. In the case of a Catholic school, those values are central to the identity and mission of the institution. Given that the decorations are connected in this way to the identity and mission, asking that the decorations be removed (whether intentionally or not, hence my use of the word "discourteous") reaches as a sort of critique regarding the identity and mission. When I say that all your pictures are rubbish and your curtains are awful, I am saying (assuming you chose them) that you have bad taste. If you put all of those things up to proclaim your taste and your whole reason for even having a home in the first place is to proclaim your taste ... well, I think you'd be a bit put out.

The point being that, even if a school is X, it is not necessarily disrespectful or discourteous to request a concession to something that is not X.

I still disagree, because the case is loaded. We aren't talking about something incidental, like someone's allergy to down pillows. Rather, the decorations themselves stand so closely for the values that they become entangled -- you might say, this is a sort of sacramentalism. If you smash an icon, you're not just breaking a picture -- there's some kind of blasphemy in addition to the violence. Similarly, saying that the icon offends you is itself offensive to a person for whom that icon is sacred.

I'm so miserably tired of hearing about Soros, please at least tell me you weren't egged on by Glenn Beck and some other compelling evidence pointed you at Soros.

dogma wrote:Oh look, another thread about who is liberal, and who is conservative. The white raven has landed, election season has arrived.

Indeed, go play lefty righty in another thread.

Manchu wrote:The school in this instance, like one's home, is not a space that is open to definition by all parties who may possibly attend. The way CUA decorates it's buildings, similar to the way one decorates one's home, reflects a certain set of values. In the case of a Catholic school, those values are central to the identity and mission of the institution. Given that the decorations are connected in this way to the identity and mission, asking that the decorations be removed is (whether intentionally or not, hence my use of the word "discourteous") reaches as a sort of critique regarding the identity and mission.

I think that's a stretch, particularly given that CUA apparently does not require that all its students be Catholic in the way that, say, Wheaton College* used to require that its students be Christian (though the present pledge is essentially tantamount to it).



*Not to pick on Wheaton, I simply grew up nearby.

Manchu wrote:
When I say that all your pictures are rubbish and your curtains are awful, I am saying (assuming you chose them) that you have bad taste. If you put all of those things up to proclaim your taste and your whole reason for even having a home in the first place is to proclaim your taste ... well, I think you'd be a bit put out.

Right, but if I say X offends me I'm not necessarily calling them rubbish, particularly in the context of a religious ritual.

A thing can be of extreme quality given, and still be offensive for reasons that extend beyond its intended purpose.

Manchu wrote:
Similarly, saying that the icon offends you is itself offensive to a person for whom that icon is sacred.

Sure, though I think that reaction is irrational. But we're not talking about a person, we're talking about an institution, and institutions don't have feelings. The people that participate in them do, sure, but the institution itself does not. Asking an institution to make concessions is entirely distinct from asking a person to do the same, largely because institutional decisions tends towards being calculated rather than felt; even in the case of something like religion.

dogma wrote:

Manchu wrote:The school in this instance, like one's home, is not a space that is open to definition by all parties who may possibly attend. The way CUA decorates it's buildings, similar to the way one decorates one's home, reflects a certain set of values. In the case of a Catholic school, those values are central to the identity and mission of the institution. Given that the decorations are connected in this way to the identity and mission, asking that the decorations be removed is (whether intentionally or not, hence my use of the word "discourteous") reaches as a sort of critique regarding the identity and mission.

I think that's a stretch, particularly given that CUA apparently does not require that all its students be Catholic in the way that, say, Wheaton College* used to require that its students be Christian (though the present pledge is essentially tantamount to it).



*Not to pick on Wheaton, I simply grew up nearby.

Manchu wrote:
When I say that all your pictures are rubbish and your curtains are awful, I am saying (assuming you chose them) that you have bad taste. If you put all of those things up to proclaim your taste and your whole reason for even having a home in the first place is to proclaim your taste ... well, I think you'd be a bit put out.

Right, but if I say X offends me I'm not necessarily calling them rubbish, particularly in the context of a religious ritual.

A thing can be of extreme quality given, and still be offensive for reasons that extend beyond its intended purpose.

Manchu wrote:
Similarly, saying that the icon offends you is itself offensive to a person for whom that icon is sacred.

Sure, though I think that reaction is irrational. But we're not talking about a person, we're talking about an institution, and institutions don't have feelings. The people that participate in them do, sure, but the institution itself does not. Asking an institution to make concessions is entirely distinct from asking a person to do the same, largely because institutional decisions tends towards being calculated rather than felt; even in the case of something like religion.

Here's the essential problem though. Absent someone being included in the actual complaint, no actual student is alleging this. Its all made up in the head of trial lawyer.
if this were an actual case, it would be kicked out immediately as the lawyer has no standing to sue.

Frazzled wrote:
Here's the essential problem though. Absent someone being included in the actual complaint, no actual student is alleging this. Its all made up in the head of trial lawyer.
if this were an actual case, it would be kicked out immediately as the lawyer has no standing to sue.

I agree.

I'm not necessarily addressing the case in question specifically, but the abstract concept of challenging the identity of an institution and how it is expressed.

dogma wrote:Asking an institution to make concessions is entirely distinct from asking a person to do the same, largely because institutional decisions tends towards being calculated rather than felt; even in the case of something like religion.

There are many facets to a Catholic understanding of institution but one of the more prominent ones is community. A community is made up of individuals who feel and belief. The way that they feel and what they believe motivates them, for example, to build certain infrastructure in and through which their feelings and beliefs as a community can be better expressed. And when people, from within or without the community, ask that the infrastructure be changed in a way that seemingly blunts that expression it isn't "irrational" that the reaction would be negative.

Manchu wrote:There are many facets to a Catholic understanding of institution but one of the more prominent ones is community. A community is made up of individuals who feel and belief. The way that they feel and what they believe motivates them, for example, to build certain infrastructure in and through which their feelings and beliefs as a community can be better expressed. And when people, from within or without the community, ask that the infrastructure be changed in a way that seemingly blunts that expression it isn't "irrational" that the reaction would be negative.

Sure, it isn't irrational for the reaction to be negative, at least in the sense that it might take the form of "No." My point is that to be offended by the request is irrational, as it speaks to a lack of perspective regarding one's place in the world; regardless of whether or not you believe you have a window on absolute truth.

Keep in mind that I say this as a professional cynic who strives to believe as little as possible.

I think we can agree that "no" is a reasonable answer to this request.

We can.

Vulcan wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Relapse wrote:Except for the fact it's a private Catholic school and they're asking them to pull down symbols of reverence.

They appear to be asking for a single room without crosses in which to pray. Also they have not been allowed to 'form a Muslim student group'.

Neither of these requests are unreasonable. It's not that they are 'offended' by the sight of crosses as per this thread title, they just want a single room without crosses so they can do their worship. Also, I don't see why they are not allowed to form a student group like others. That is straight forward discrimination.

I don't get why people think they are so unreasonable. If you're offering a service like education in which you claim to be open to all faiths, it's hardly unreasonable for those attending to expect a little bit of cooperation in this regard. They aren't asking the earth.

What part of 'it's a Catholic school' is unclear? The school was established to teach Catholic beliefs alongside of college staples. 'Along side of', not 'along with these other options'. It's like going to a barbeque restaurant and trying to get them not to serve pork because it's against your religion. YOUR religion doesn't matter, it's the religion of the owner. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other options - kosher delis for restaurants; non-denominational schools for colleges.

Why even accept their applications then? If you're willing to take someone's money it's not beyond reason that you make some sort of an effort to cooperate with them so that everyone can get along a bit better.