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Sarigar wrote:If they went to percentages (which they utilized in 2nd edition), then we would have a FOC requirements and percentages?

What would that really accomplish? I don't forsee it forcing us to buy more models to existing armies and I don't see how the current FOC is unbalanced; it appears to give players enough flexibility to build the kind of army they want, generally speaking.

If you play marines the chart is likely perfectly fine. Of corse, anyone who has access to multiple units that cost less than 11pts/model will argue otherwise! It's too easy to fill up all your slots in larger games and still have pts left over.
The FOC needs a change really. At the very least, it needs to scale upwards as more pts are added to the table, considering it takes 3k before you can ignore it entirely. But really, why can't we have 3 HQ's in games 2000-2999pts?! And why only 6 Troops slots? (I know alot of ork & 'nid players who would love to field more basic mobs/broods) Heck, considering how Daemons are currently shoehorned into requiring at least 3 if not 4 small 5-man horror squads just to gain access to proper anti-tank, it sucks that I can only have 6 troops slots!

I wouldn't mind a change over to a percentage system, as it has worked out very well in fantasy. The other thing people are forgetting, in fantasy there's also hardcaps on the number of like units you can take. (no quadruple specials, no tripple rares untill you hit 3k+)
So for 40k, it could work something like 'no quadruple elites/fast, no tripple heavy untill 2.5K+ or something similar... Transports I would imagine would count towards the section of the unit they're bought for.
As for things like the newcron court getting slapping silly, remember also that under fantasy's system, units/options which don't count towards the total of something don't count against the percentage cap either! (ie: units of direwolves "don't count towards the minimum core unit requirement", thus, they don't count as part of your minimum 25% you must take!) So a royal court would still be expensive, but it won't count as part of your max 'X'% on HQ.

I would welcome a change in FOC, but not holding my breath.

Kanluwen wrote:

Sasori wrote:I hope there is some restriction, in addition to the percentages.

I really don't want to be across the tabletop from 9 Hydras and 3 Manticores.

Or 12 Valkyries, loaded to the brim with Veteran squads!

I'm not gonna lie. I like the restrictions being removed. It means I can haul out all my Sentinels more often.

My friends and I have a running joke of showing up to an apocalypse game with nothing but Eldar War Walkers and 1 Farseer.

Us: We brought 5,000 points of Eldar.
Them: Cool. What units did you bring?
Us: 40 squads of War Walkers. And a Farseer!
Them: Get out, and don't come back.

I'm sure if they did percentages in 40k it would look an aweful lot like current fantasy. Lord=HQ, Heroes=Elite, Special=fast, Rare=heavy with all the current % and unit number limitations.

agnosto wrote:I'm sure if they did percentages in 40k it would look an aweful lot like current fantasy. Lord=HQ, Heroes=Elite, Special=fast, Rare=heavy with all the current % and unit number limitations.

Similar, but I doubt that'd be the exact way of doing it. I'd expect us to keep the same categories as we have now, with min/max %'s. Possibly something like:

Hq: Max 25% (minimum of one selection)
Troops: Min 25%
Elites/FA/HS: Max 25% each

Troops might get a bit higher, HQ and Elites might get a touch lower, but I doubt it'd vary too much from that.

WHY do so meny off you think Vanilla marines vill be out next year?!

we have no rumors at all on marines , the codex they have is good as it is , dont think thet will get a new one only because they are marines

think i will be
Templars (MARINE BOK)
6ed
eldar
chaos legions
tau

HOPE it will be
Templars
SISTERS
6ed
Chaos
tau
eldar

WHY do so meny off you think Vanilla marines vill be out next year?!

Because they're always the first ones up after a new edition?

Claimh_Solais wrote:WHY do so meny off you think Vanilla marines vill be out next year?!

we have no rumors at all on marines , the codex they have is good as it is , dont think thet will get a new one only because they are marines

The Vanilla Codex is one of the first, if not they first codex to be released every new edition. They are the face of 40K, and that single book comprises most 40k Players out there. Of course they are going to keep their biggest money maker updated.

Don't expect SoB for a while. They just got the WD treatment. I don't think we'll be seeing them until 2013 at the earliest.

Sidstyler wrote:

WHY do so meny off you think Vanilla marines vill be out next year?!

Because they're always the first ones up after a new edition?

Only bacause thet always ben first dosen´t mean they always WILL be first

Marines sell anyway , chaos dont so my monny is they make chaos first

agnosto wrote:I'm sure if they did percentages in 40k it would look an aweful lot like current fantasy. Lord=HQ, Heroes=Elite, Special=fast, Rare=heavy with all the current % and unit number limitations.

40K 2nd edition was done by %'s.

Byte wrote:

agnosto wrote:I'm sure if they did percentages in 40k it would look an aweful lot like current fantasy. Lord=HQ, Heroes=Elite, Special=fast, Rare=heavy with all the current % and unit number limitations.

40K 2nd edition was done by %'s.

And it looked an awful lot like fantasy.

I think Phil Kelly will write the next BT codex, which I think will air after the Eldar one. Their usual order is a xenos codex, imperial codex, xenos codex, imperial codex and so on.

However, Tau are in desperate need for update, as are CSM.

I'd rather wish having a FOC which can be altered by HQs or traits, doctrines, point level, etc. to the percentage system.

Cyrax wrote:I'd rather wish having a FOC which can be altered by HQs or traits, doctrines, point level, etc. to the percentage system.

You are aware that you can have both, right?

The "percentage" comes into play when looking at the overall points of a force. Elites cannot be more than 25% of the overall points total of a force, etc.

I wonder if the rumoured slot swap will allow armies to field super heavies by making them take up multiple (four) slots.

Kanluwen wrote:

Cyrax wrote:I'd rather wish having a FOC which can be altered by HQs or traits, doctrines, point level, etc. to the percentage system.

You are aware that you can have both, right?

The "percentage" comes into play when looking at the overall points of a force. Elites cannot be more than 25% of the overall points total of a force, etc.

Sorry, I was trying to say FOC slots. I mean I'd prefer having standard FOC slots which can be increased or decreased, like having an extra Heavy Support by limiting some other slot.

No need for a new Chaos codex, I'll settle for an FAQ that says we can use anything from Daemons and CSM lists

Kanluwen wrote:

Cyrax wrote:I'd rather wish having a FOC which can be altered by HQs or traits, doctrines, point level, etc. to the percentage system.

You are aware that you can have both, right?
The "percentage" comes into play when looking at the overall points of a force. Elites cannot be more than 25% of the overall points total of a force, etc.

Actually, in Fantasy the percentage system replaced the FOC system, making FAQs for each army necessary at the start obviously.

Kroothawk wrote:making FAQs for each army necessary at the start obviously.

Is that not one of the big rumors for 6thEd? The change will be more drastic than 4thEd->5thEd and require FAQs all around.

Personally, they should just reset everything like they did in 3rdEd and print the "codex" rules within the rulebook itself.

Well, considering that the elimination of the Force-Org chart wasn't one of the bad parts of 8th ed, I'll not worry about it too much. However, there are plenty of other things to ruin, so I'll hold my breath and worry until we get something shown to be not horrible.

Absolutionis wrote:
Personally, they should just reset everything like they did in 3rdEd and print the "codex" rules within the rulebook itself.

So the core rule set and the Vanilla dex under one cover every time?

That's an interesting idea.

The third edition rulebook came with mini codices for every army because the ruleset invalidated everything that came before. I wouldn't expect to see that again unless things really change, which I sincerely doubt.

They really should implement this rule.
Why should there be a difference between Gamer and Modeler?
With a strick FOA chart you might only be allowed one tank,when painting tanks is your drop dead favorite thing to paint.
With strickness you only buy one tank because any more is a waste,with the new rule you buy what you like and shape your army how you like.
Now you can make fluffy White Scar armies without resorting to the DA codex,Or have a IG force around the units you like.
For instance I like to run an armored calvary unit with more armor than a regular ground force has but with more troops than a armor company

Experiment 626 wrote:

Sarigar wrote:If they went to percentages (which they utilized in 2nd edition), then we would have a FOC requirements and percentages?

What would that really accomplish? I don't forsee it forcing us to buy more models to existing armies and I don't see how the current FOC is unbalanced; it appears to give players enough flexibility to build the kind of army they want, generally speaking.

If you play marines the chart is likely perfectly fine. Of corse, anyone who has access to multiple units that cost less than 11pts/model will argue otherwise! It's too easy to fill up all your slots in larger games and still have pts left over.
The FOC needs a change really. At the very least, it needs to scale upwards as more pts are added to the table, considering it takes 3k before you can ignore it entirely. But really, why can't we have 3 HQ's in games 2000-2999pts?! And why only 6 Troops slots? (I know alot of ork & 'nid players who would love to field more basic mobs/broods) Heck, considering how Daemons are currently shoehorned into requiring at least 3 if not 4 small 5-man horror squads just to gain access to proper anti-tank, it sucks that I can only have 6 troops slots!

I wouldn't mind a change over to a percentage system, as it has worked out very well in fantasy. The other thing people are forgetting, in fantasy there's also hardcaps on the number of like units you can take. (no quadruple specials, no tripple rares untill you hit 3k+)
So for 40k, it could work something like 'no quadruple elites/fast, no tripple heavy untill 2.5K+ or something similar... Transports I would imagine would count towards the section of the unit they're bought for.
As for things like the newcron court getting slapping silly, remember also that under fantasy's system, units/options which don't count towards the total of something don't count against the percentage cap either! (ie: units of direwolves "don't count towards the minimum core unit requirement", thus, they don't count as part of your minimum 25% you must take!) So a royal court would still be expensive, but it won't count as part of your max 'X'% on HQ.

If they went to a percentage system, I'd imagine it would be on top of the existing FOC as it is explained within every existing codex (GW could create an errata eliminating it from every codex, but I have my doubts). The FOC already caps the number of units, but I could see it becoming further restricted based on the points value played. However, I think that will just create a new set of problems where some armies do well under a cap system, but others do not.

As for larger games, I suppose it's up to what is in one's personal collection. I have no problem fielding 3500 points of Eldar in one FOC (not even maxing it out). I could go up to 4000 points if I utilized Wraithguard or a Jetseer Council (IE: expensive units). If you're playing larger games, you can easily play Apocolypse which eliminates the FOC or just agree among friends to loosen up on the FOC.

In WHFB, the percentage system works like this:

Lords can take up to 25% of the points
Heros can take up to 25% of the points (a different 25% from the Lords)

You must take 25% Core
You may take up to 50% Special
You may take up to 25% Rare

You may take no more than 3 of the same Specials, or 2 of the same Rares per list, unless the items are "2 for 1" (Certain entries only took up one slot for every 2 taken, like Haemonculi or Sniper drone teams do.)

When 8th ed released, an FAQ was printed for every army to remove the force org charts and make a few other key changes. We were all impressed, till we realized that A) 8th ed is crap and B ) we got our first 8th ed army book 8 months after the edition streeted.

Those rules led to cheap spell caster spam and, together with OTT and erratic magic rules, to the end of competitive play without house rules restricting abuse. And yes, Mat Ward was the author. I fear HQ spam now.

Wasn't there a rumor stating Phil was writing 6th's rules? If so, that's a very bright spot in the near future.

Well I would really enjoy if Chaos Space Marine gets a codex, and then Thousand Sons, World eaters, and other legions get there own codex instead of having to just use the single Chaos Space Marine codex.... I mean all the loyalist chapters see to get there own codex and they are not as wide variety as Chaos..

You have 2/3 of the chapters that all warship the Emperor as there god, well grey knights and one other loyalist chapter thinks he is just a space marine, then you have 1/3 of the chapters that warship 5+ totally different chaos Gods either worshiping just one god, or maybe a couple, but all worshiping in there own way. Using some technology that has been lost to the empire, using some technology that has entered the empire, and even steeling some technology from outside the empire, and with some new loyalist falling to the sway of the allure of Chaos all the time even have a limited selection of the newest imperial technology. But the Chaos Space Marine codex has been so Blah... so lack of virility, so empty of fluff of the majority of the chaos traitor chapters. At least they have had some pictures of some of the traitor chapters, but the 4 Chaos gods, Tzeentch, Khorn, Nurgle, and Slanish are just the 4 most powerful off all the Chaos gods, in the past much of the old fluff talked about other chaos gods, minor chaos gods, and even the 5th major chaos god the god of murder.

why are all the books expanding the blah and tasteless Loyalist space marine and little to no flavor is given to the rebels the ones trying to fight the oppressive emperor, that rules the realm of man on his giant Iron thrown with thousands of innocent souls sacrificed to him to keep him alive.

I am not saying the Chaos gods are a good team, or the good sides, heck they kill each other just as much as they loyalist marines if not more, but they are what the emperor himself drove the freedom fighters of the Empire too,.

heck I mean the emperor is holding the Necron god captured in the Moon trapped to help make the machine of man for his galactic conquests.

The books are expanding the "blah and tasteless" (your words, not mine) loyalist Marines because they sell well and are easier to make releases for. GW just needs to write a codex and release a handful of kits and bam, Space Wolves are going to sell them god knows how many drop pods, rhinos, dreadnoughts, assault Marines, whatever. The money they make from those safe bets is what lets GW take risks like the amazing Dark Eldar release. It's not a perfect situation, but don't knock it.

I personally think the next two codes will be tau/bt in the that order for two reasons. 1. If you go on the gamesworkshop website these two codes are 9 bucks cheaper than the others and 2. There are alot of confirmed rumors by Robbin Cruddace regarding new tau units that will come out. Have you seen any confirmed eldar rumors? I DON'T THINK SO!!