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BeRzErKeR wrote:Orks.

Yes, Ork boyz get beaten up by Purifiers. Well. . . kinda. 5 purifiers against 30 boyz with nob is just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks), and looking at the math it's a pretty even fight; basically, whoever gets the charge has a significantly better than even chance of winning. No matter who wins, the other side takes pretty serious casualties

Think about that. The basic ork troop can fight GK Elites, and hold them to a draw. If a 30-man Ork squad gets their face wrecked in CC and is cut down to ten or twelve models. . . oh well. They get on an objective; they slide in behind a charging Nobz squad and add another PK+30 attacks to an assault; they're still an effective unit. If a 5-man Purifier squad gets beat up against an Ork unit, even if they win they're down to one or two models, and are basically hors de combat from that point on.

Furthermore, there isn't any other infantry assault unit in the game as devastating to hordes as Purifiers. If Ork Boyz can fight Purifers, the one unit above all that is specifically DESIGNED to wreck their gak, on a nearly-even basis, that's just more evidence that they shred anything that ISN'T quite so brutal. And they certainly do; BA assault squads, any variant of Terminators, Grey Hunters, whatever it is, match up any infantry you care to name against equal points of Ork Boyz and it dies. Hard. Same goes for most characters and Elite units, for that matter. And that isn't even considering that they get a surprising amount of dakka for their points. The only real downside to Ork Boyz is that they take up a lot of space on the table, and they take a long time to move.

And we haven't even talked about Nobz. Nobz are the most vicious, unit-massacring assault unit around. Even without giving them BCs or PKs, every single one of them throws down 5 S5 attacks on the charge; hell, most Codexes have to use HQs or Special Characters to do that kind of damage! And, of course, they're easy to diversify for WA shenanigans, and you can pack the squad chock-full of BCs and PKs to ensure that you can bring the pain down on anything that catches your eye. They've got FNP with a Painboy; they've got WS 5 with a Waagh! Banner; they've got a hilariously long assault range if you bring Ghazghkull, and there's no reason NOT to bring Ghazghkull because he's also one of the best CC characters in the game. Then there's MANZ, who aren't the most flexible assault unit or the most effective in all situations, but three or four in a trukk make an excellent, cheap cruise missile with a whole lotta S9 PK attacks.

The whole Ork Codex is designed around this idea; mass numbers and hundreds of attacks that can pound through any unit, no matter how tough, especially in assault. And it's really, really good at it.

5 purifers cost nearly as much as ork boyz mob 30 strong? What are you smoking? Last I checked even purifers aren't even close to 43 points per model. Maybe if you gave then an assault cannon razorback with upgraded ammo it might be close to the same cost. Put the units at equal cost and then compare. I think that is 8 purifiers if my math is right. 13 dead orks from flames, 4 dead from force weapons. 12 regular orks strike back, 36 attacks. 3 dead GKs, PK kills 2 more, 5 dead GKs. 3 remain, you lost combat by 12, take fearless saves, you fail 10. Remaining squad size is 3 including nob. If GKs do slightly better than average then you are not looking at taking fearless saves, you are looking at getting run down by sweeping advance.

Also how awesome those nobs are the just suck when faced with force weapons striking before they do (can't use wound wrapping to stop that btw) and definately don't like facing down thunder hammers. Also with DE wyches I've tied up nobs and weakened them before. PKs don't like facing 4++ models that only cost 10-12 points. Hell I've killed nob units with multi charging wyche units.

As for how good anti horde purifiers are, I would say that an even better unit for clearing hordes are DE beast packs. A full beast pack of 6 razorwings, 5 masters, 10 kmeria (or however you spell them) costs less than 300 points, has 45 wounds, and so many rending and decent strength attacks that even the biggest baddest ork mob is going be severly mauled if not completely destroyed in one turn of combat.

Seaward wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:Black Templars: army wide Preferred enemy for ALL enemy units, Furious Charge Terminators, Initiates with close combat weapons for free, Blessed hull LRC's. Pack 24 LC termies into a LRC's with blessed hull, roll em' onto the opponent's doorstep and unleash the motherf*****g fury! Plus BT run forward when they take casualties instead of backward and are fearless in close combat. Finally, take twenty man Crusader Squads (ten initiates, ten neophytes) and you'll have units that can shred up large Ork boy squads without much hassle.

It's definitely not Black Templars. Their Assault Terminators are the best, but everything else used for assault in that 'dex pretty much blows compared to other dedicated assault units.

It arguably should be Black Templars, but we'll just have to see what the future holds. Unfortunately, if rumors are true, what the future holds is orks in power armor.

We shoot much better than we stab. BT melee units cost much more than they're worth.

notabot187 wrote:
5 purifers cost nearly as much as ork boyz mob 30 strong? What are you smoking? Last I checked even purifers aren't even close to 43 points per model. Maybe if you gave then an assault cannon razorback with upgraded ammo it might be close to the same cost. Put the units at equal cost and then compare. I think that is 8 purifiers if my math is right. 13 dead orks from flames, 4 dead from force weapons. 12 regular orks strike back, 36 attacks. 3 dead GKs, PK kills 2 more, 5 dead GKs. 3 remain, you lost combat by 12, take fearless saves, you fail 10. Remaining squad size is 3 including nob. If GKs do slightly better than average then you are not looking at taking fearless saves, you are looking at getting run down by sweeping advance.

Also how awesome those nobs are the just suck when faced with force weapons striking before they do (can't use wound wrapping to stop that btw) and definately don't like facing down thunder hammers. Also with DE wyches I've tied up nobs and weakened them before. PKs don't like facing 4++ models that only cost 10-12 points. Hell I've killed nob units with multi charging wyche units.

As for how good anti horde purifiers are, I would say that an even better unit for clearing hordes are DE beast packs. A full beast pack of 6 razorwings, 5 masters, 10 kmeria (or however you spell them) costs less than 300 points, has 45 wounds, and so many rending and decent strength attacks that even the biggest baddest ork mob is going be severly mauled if not completely destroyed in one turn of combat.

Ah, my apologies. I wasn't aware you were running completely naked Purifers. You are, of course, correct; if you decide not to use any of the special weapons or options, then you get more models.

Assuming, however, that you're actually running an EFFECTIVE Purifier squadron which can do something, anything, BESIDES barely win combat against hordes, or want unit complexity for wound allocation, your cost will be just a bit higher. 190 points or so is not unreasonable for a 5-man Purifer squad. . . which is, as it happens, nearly as much as 30 Ork Boyz with a PK Nob. Or, as I said before, 'just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks).'

As I also said, the fact that Ork Boyz, the quintessential horde unit, cannot outfight a unit DESIGNED to be an anti-horde beatstick. . . is a no-brainer. The fact that they do as well as they do is far more important; it demonstrates that they can do significant damage even to a unit that's supposed to be their hard counter.

As to Nobz; yes, it's true that Nobz can't kill absolutely anything ever. If they could, no-one would take anything else. Against force weapons striking before them, yes, Nobz will suffer. Of course, everything suffers against that. Against Thunder Hammers? Mmm. . . not so much. Try running the mathhammer for a tooled-up Nobz squad against Assault Terminators, equal point value. The Nobz hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+ or a 2+; the shoota/choppa and BC Nobz will kill a few before the Termies get to strike, weather the ID attacks with the help of their 5++ and win the combat anyway once the PKs hit. Against Wyches? Sure, you can tarpit them for a bit, but they put out enough attacks at a high enough Strength that it takes a LOT of Wyches to kill them. If they get the charge they'll shred Wyches or basically any other DE unit like tissue paper, though against a decent DE player that's difficult to pull off.

I know what is NOT the best assaulty army - GK.

They are WS4, S4, I4. They do not get Furious Charge, they do not get Fleet, they do not get bonuses for carrying two close combat weapons. True, they can increase their chances through various means like halberds, falchions, hammerhand etc but these are all options that cost extra points or risk perils (and any one who has played GK will know that perils does happen as do failed tests when you are attempting so many). The point is, inherently GK are basic marines - they just pay through the nose for the potential to be better and then more if they want to realise that potential.

A unit of 10 Purifiers, all with halberds that get charged have 20 power weapon attacks - Wowee! Their WS4 (generally speaking) means they will hit 10 times. Not great to be honest but still OK. Then their S4 (again, generally speaking) means that they will cause 5 wounds. Not bad but then they paid 260 points for that. They could assault something and do better but don't have any special rules to help them get into combat any easier/faster than a regular tactical marine.

I'm not saying they are bad in CC or indeed at the whole round of assault. But best in the game? No way. GK HAVE to take halberds to ensure that they are not stomped by any kind of specialist assault unit that can move over 12" during both movement and assault. And with a basic 24" shooting weapon, they will end up in CC sooner rather than later so saying 2 points for a halberd on a Purifier is way too cheap, think of the options otherwise. You've got to spend those 2 points per model which effectively makes them 26 point space marines. They pay for the hurt they can bring in CC but if you are playing a dedicated assault unit against GK, you know you will be the one getting to choose when CC occurs.

We are comparing assault ability, not shooting/assault utility. Purifiers without shooting upgrades vs boyz without shooting upgrades. If you add shooting upgrades to the mix then I get to kill some of your guys before they get to shoot back. Or heck, will hit you with 2 strong flame templates before going in for the cleansing flame. But lets not go there. Yes, people really do take 5 man purifier squads without upgrades. Or they combat squad the special weapons out. So for simplicities sake I just used to basic cost of a halberd or non halberd equipted squad (and honestly against non marines/eldar it hardly ever helps to pay the extra 2 points)

A nob with a PK is a bit more than an assault termie IIRC. Give one a different item makes him cost a bit more. The other guys are cheaper, but if you take a decent number of BCs and other wargear you end up pretty expensive, and I doubt that you can make a proper pain boy and cyborked unit for 200 points or less with more than 5 models in the unit. Lets assume there are 2 PKs in the unit, and 3 big choppas (forgot to add the docs weapon, forgot the profile but it can't be much better than wounding on 2 so i used big choppa stats). 3 choppas aren't going to kill a ton of guys with 4 attacks each. 12 attacks, 8 hits due to banner, 7 wounds rounding a bit. Termies should lose 1 model. I1 attacks, TH/SS guys get 8 attacks cause I gave the orks the charge (which i wonder why since TH/SS are LR bound, but whatever) 4 hit, most common result is 3.33 wounds. Should ID 2 nobs rounding down. PKs go same time, 8 attacks, 6 hits (rounding up quite a bit) 5 wounds, termies bounce 3-4 of them. So 2 dead nobs, 3 dead termies. Nobs count as 2 wounds each, so your nobs lose by 1. When they get the charge and have higher WS and I give them the beneficial side of rounding off.

Now the nob squad is likely to have a warboss attached, but that is adding 150 points or so to one side, and he doesn't really do much other than soak ID shooting and add extra PK attacks in (which is more expensive per attack than just taking more PK nobs).

The thing about nob squads is they cost quite a bit of points to make them into the unstoppable deathstar that many people think of. Units of 5 are a nasty bully unit, but don't really have enough mass to get over the threshold of being backstopped by the typical 5 man TH/SS unit. To win decisively against these guys you will need to invest even more into them. This drains away resources the rest of the army could be using, but is honestly usually worth it. But you can't really say point for point that nobs straight up kill TH/SS.

Now if you want to contest my numbers you are more than welcome, don't have the point values for the nobs memorized anymore, but if you have a better configuration of diverse nobs with a point value within 25 pts of 200 that would do better go for it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Orks.

Yes, Ork boyz get beaten up by Purifiers. Well. . . kinda. 5 purifiers against 30 boyz with nob is just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks), and looking at the math it's a pretty even fight; basically, whoever gets the charge has a significantly better than even chance of winning. No matter who wins, the other side takes pretty serious casualties

Think about that. The basic ork troop can fight GK Elites, and hold them to a draw. If a 30-man Ork squad gets their face wrecked in CC and is cut down to ten or twelve models. . . oh well. They get on an objective; they slide in behind a charging Nobz squad and add another PK+30 attacks to an assault; they're still an effective unit. If a 5-man Purifier squad gets beat up against an Ork unit, even if they win they're down to one or two models, and are basically hors de combat from that point on.

Furthermore, there isn't any other infantry assault unit in the game as devastating to hordes as Purifiers. If Ork Boyz can fight Purifers, the one unit above all that is specifically DESIGNED to wreck their gak, on a nearly-even basis, that's just more evidence that they shred anything that ISN'T quite so brutal. And they certainly do; BA assault squads, any variant of Terminators, Grey Hunters, whatever it is, match up any infantry you care to name against equal points of Ork Boyz and it dies. Hard. Same goes for most characters and Elite units, for that matter. And that isn't even considering that they get a surprising amount of dakka for their points. The only real downside to Ork Boyz is that they take up a lot of space on the table, and they take a long time to move.

And we haven't even talked about Nobz. Nobz are the most vicious, unit-massacring assault unit around. Even without giving them BCs or PKs, every single one of them throws down 5 S5 attacks on the charge; hell, most Codexes have to use HQs or Special Characters to do that kind of damage! And, of course, they're easy to diversify for WA shenanigans, and you can pack the squad chock-full of BCs and PKs to ensure that you can bring the pain down on anything that catches your eye. They've got FNP with a Painboy; they've got WS 5 with a Waagh! Banner; they've got a hilariously long assault range if you bring Ghazghkull, and there's no reason NOT to bring Ghazghkull because he's also one of the best CC characters in the game. Then there's MANZ, who aren't the most flexible assault unit or the most effective in all situations, but three or four in a trukk make an excellent, cheap cruise missile with a whole lotta S9 PK attacks.

The whole Ork Codex is designed around this idea; mass numbers and hundreds of attacks that can pound through any unit, no matter how tough, especially in assault. And it's really, really good at it.

Paladins and draigo will outdo meganobz with ghazzy any day

notabot187 wrote:We are comparing assault ability, not shooting/assault utility. Purifiers without shooting upgrades vs boyz without shooting upgrades. If you add shooting upgrades to the mix then I get to kill some of your guys before they get to shoot back. Or heck, will hit you with 2 strong flame templates before going in for the cleansing flame. But lets not go there. Yes, people really do take 5 man purifier squads without upgrades. Or they combat squad the special weapons out. So for simplicities sake I just used to basic cost of a halberd or non halberd equipted squad (and honestly against non marines/eldar it hardly ever helps to pay the extra 2 points)

The shooting upgrades are a major part of the importance of Purifiers, and are not for Orks. I've played against GK several times, in the hands of two different people; I've never seen a naked 5-man squad, or in fact a naked squad of any size. That said, I'm sure they're out there, and they do indeed beat Ork boyz point-for point.

Though I must note; if we start to include shooting, the Orks wipe the whole squad with Shoota fire before ever entering assault. 60 shots = 20 hits = 10 wounds = 3 dead in one round of fire, from beyond assault range. Alternatively, if they're slugga boyz, I think they'd win combat after all, or at least make it quite a bit closer. But yeah, let's not go there.

notabot187 wrote:
A nob with a PK is a bit more than an assault termie IIRC. Give one a different item makes him cost a bit more. The other guys are cheaper, but if you take a decent number of BCs and other wargear you end up pretty expensive, and I doubt that you can make a proper pain boy and cyborked unit for 200 points or less with more than 5 models in the unit. Lets assume there are 2 PKs in the unit, and 3 big choppas (forgot to add the docs weapon, forgot the profile but it can't be much better than wounding on 2 so i used big choppa stats). 3 choppas aren't going to kill a ton of guys with 4 attacks each. 12 attacks, 8 hits due to banner, 7 wounds rounding a bit. Termies should lose 1 model. I1 attacks, TH/SS guys get 8 attacks cause I gave the orks the charge (which i wonder why since TH/SS are LR bound, but whatever) 4 hit, most common result is 3.33 wounds. Should ID 2 nobs rounding down. PKs go same time, 8 attacks, 6 hits (rounding up quite a bit) 5 wounds, termies bounce 3-4 of them. So 2 dead nobs, 3 dead termies. Nobs count as 2 wounds each, so your nobs lose by 1. When they get the charge and have higher WS and I give them the beneficial side of rounding off.

You're correct; a PK Nob with cybork body comes out to a truly painful 50 points. For 200 points, you don't get a whole lot of toys with your Nobz. You could take a 10-strong naked choppa/slugga squad, which would ironically do much better against the Assault Termies but not nearly as well against most other things. I think I'd take a squad like this, since 200 points isn't enough to have 25-point PKs floating around.

5x Nobs
Painboy
Waagh! Banner
5x cybork body
BC
BC, kombi-skorcha
Choppa/slugga, bosspole
Choppa/slugga, kombi-skorcha

On the charge that's 10 S5 attacks, 8S7 attacks, and 4 S5 Poisoned 4+ attacks (which in this case is a downside). Going up to 225 points gives you another choppa/slugga Nob for another 5 S5 attacks, but I'll stick with 200 points for now.

So; 10 choppa attacks, 7 hit, 5 wound (rounded up from 4.67). 4 Painboy attacks, 3 hit (rounded up from 2.67), 1 wounds (rounded down from 1.5). 8 BC attacks, 5 hit (rounded down from 5.33), 4 wound (rounded down from 4.44). The Termies make a total of 10 saves, and lose two models (rounded up from 1.67).

Termies swing; 6 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds (rounded up from 2.5), 2 Nobz die; we'll say the BC ones. They lose combat.

Next round; 8 S4 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds; 3 Painboy attacks, 2 hits, one wound. One Termie dies.

Termies; 4 attacks, 2 hits, on average one choppa Nob dies. Nobz lose combat, again.

3rd round (assuming the Nobz haven't run); 4 choppa attacks, 3 hits, 1 wound (round down this time, for balance). 3 Painboy attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound. Odds are good that the Termies don't lose a man. They kill another Nob, and likely have won by this point. In isolation, then, 5 Assault Termies beat 5 Nobz.

But mathhammer is of no value in isolation. I very much doubt that you will ever see 5 Termies fighting an underequipped 5-man Nobz squad like that; if for no other reason than that both of the units we're considering are almost always transported, and their transports have wildly different costs. That Assault Termie squad doesn't cost 200 points; it costs 450, because they NEED a Land Raider. And the Nobz squad described doesn't cost 200 either; it costs 310, because they need a BW and practically all BWs get a deff rolla put on them. Maybe 320, if you also give the BW a RPJ.

notabot187 wrote:
The thing about nob squads is they cost quite a bit of points to make them into the unstoppable deathstar that many people think of. Units of 5 are a nasty bully unit, but don't really have enough mass to get over the threshold of being backstopped by the typical 5 man TH/SS unit. To win decisively against these guys you will need to invest even more into them. This drains away resources the rest of the army could be using, but is honestly usually worth it. But you can't really say point for point that nobs straight up kill TH/SS.

I can and do say it. The math we just did wasn't for 200 points of Termies vs 200 points of Nobz; it was for 450 points of Termies vs. 320 points of Nobz. Is it surprising that the Termies won?

Nobz are, individually, expensive. But their support and delivery systems are dirt cheap! Getting 5 Assault Termies into combat absolutely requires a 450 point investment; if you walk them up the board they won't make it, and if you DS them they'll be shot to ribbons without ever assaulting anything worthwhile. If you spend 450 points on Nobz, you could add 2 PK Nobz and another BC Nob to the squad I suggested above. Spending the same points gives you a MUCH more effective deathstar.

Try that mathhammer; the Nobz win. The Termies lose three models first round instead of two, and the Nobz have more bodies to absorb casualties. If the Nobz charge, the Termies win the first round of combat by 1 wound but get wiped in round 2; if the Termies get the charge, they kill 3 Nobz and lose 2 Termies in round 1, but then it's 5 vs 3 and as long as the Nobz don't run (which they probably won't, since they've got a bosspole and can re-roll Leadership) they still get ground down.

People who says Nobz are expensive are only looking at them from a limited perspective. When the way they're actually used is taken into account, Nobz are one of the cheapest beatsticks around for a given level of power; which means that the Ork player has more points to spend on other things. Overall, Orks pay less for the same amount of killiness, and that's what makes them, IMO, the best assault army.

TheAngrySquig wrote: Paladins and draigo will outdo meganobz with ghazzy any day

Mmm. . . doubt it. Ghazkghull and his lads will very likely get the charge, since Ghazghkull's Waagh! gives them that handy 6" Fleet move; Draigo and friends get their licks in, probably killing off several of the MANZ, and then Ghazzy roflstomps them with his 7 S10 PK attacks and 2++ save, along with the 5 S9 attacks any surviving MANZ are laying down. Ghazghkull is quite capable of SOLOING most units, including powerful assault units; he's an Eternal Warrior, so those Force Weapons do nothing to him, and that 2++ save when he's Waaghing makes him very nearly unkillable until it wears off. You're going to need to wound him, on average, 24 times, while also killing all his friends.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

notabot187 wrote:
5 purifers cost nearly as much as ork boyz mob 30 strong? What are you smoking? Last I checked even purifers aren't even close to 43 points per model. Maybe if you gave then an assault cannon razorback with upgraded ammo it might be close to the same cost. Put the units at equal cost and then compare. I think that is 8 purifiers if my math is right. 13 dead orks from flames, 4 dead from force weapons. 12 regular orks strike back, 36 attacks. 3 dead GKs, PK kills 2 more, 5 dead GKs. 3 remain, you lost combat by 12, take fearless saves, you fail 10. Remaining squad size is 3 including nob. If GKs do slightly better than average then you are not looking at taking fearless saves, you are looking at getting run down by sweeping advance.

Also how awesome those nobs are the just suck when faced with force weapons striking before they do (can't use wound wrapping to stop that btw) and definately don't like facing down thunder hammers. Also with DE wyches I've tied up nobs and weakened them before. PKs don't like facing 4++ models that only cost 10-12 points. Hell I've killed nob units with multi charging wyche units.

As for how good anti horde purifiers are, I would say that an even better unit for clearing hordes are DE beast packs. A full beast pack of 6 razorwings, 5 masters, 10 kmeria (or however you spell them) costs less than 300 points, has 45 wounds, and so many rending and decent strength attacks that even the biggest baddest ork mob is going be severly mauled if not completely destroyed in one turn of combat.

Ah, my apologies. I wasn't aware you were running completely naked Purifers. You are, of course, correct; if you decide not to use any of the special weapons or options, then you get more models.

Assuming, however, that you're actually running an EFFECTIVE Purifier squadron which can do something, anything, BESIDES barely win combat against hordes, or want unit complexity for wound allocation, your cost will be just a bit higher. 190 points or so is not unreasonable for a 5-man Purifer squad. . . which is, as it happens, nearly as much as 30 Ork Boyz with a PK Nob. Or, as I said before, 'just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks).'

As I also said, the fact that Ork Boyz, the quintessential horde unit, cannot outfight a unit DESIGNED to be an anti-horde beatstick. . . is a no-brainer. The fact that they do as well as they do is far more important; it demonstrates that they can do significant damage even to a unit that's supposed to be their hard counter.

As to Nobz; yes, it's true that Nobz can't kill absolutely anything ever. If they could, no-one would take anything else. Against force weapons striking before them, yes, Nobz will suffer. Of course, everything suffers against that. Against Thunder Hammers? Mmm. . . not so much. Try running the mathhammer for a tooled-up Nobz squad against Assault Terminators, equal point value. The Nobz hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+ or a 2+; the shoota/choppa and BC Nobz will kill a few before the Termies get to strike, weather the ID attacks with the help of their 5++ and win the combat anyway once the PKs hit. Against Wyches? Sure, you can tarpit them for a bit, but they put out enough attacks at a high enough Strength that it takes a LOT of Wyches to kill them. If they get the charge they'll shred Wyches or basically any other DE unit like tissue paper, though against a decent DE player that's difficult to pull off.

8 Purifiers 2 with Psycannons, 1 hammer, and 4 hals costs 225(w/o rhino), 30 boyz with a klaw costs 215, this is as close are we're going to get on points and what people actually run. If you're going to be sarcastic and pretend to be intelligent, at least get your own numbers correct. The Purifiers win this encounter as has been shown in several other posts in this thread without firing a shot which is not realistic and excludes their other powerful function. I don't include the transport as part of this because you don't either. Transports effect positioning and circumstance too much to be able to properly quantify them. If anything this discussion favors the Orks in that we're assuming they have the positioning to have their Nob attack and all other 29 models, in game that's not always the case with such cumbersome units.

I don't speak much about Nobs because I don't have a lot of experience with them.

Movac wrote:

8 Purifiers 2 with Psycannons, 1 hammer, and 4 hals costs 225(w/o rhino), 30 boyz with a klaw costs 215, this is as close are we're going to get on points and what people actually run. If you're going to be sarcastic and pretend to be intelligent, at least get your own numbers correct. The Purifiers win this encounter as has been shown in several other posts in this thread without firing a shot which is not realistic and excludes their other powerful function. I don't include the transport as part of this because you don't either. Transports effect positioning and circumstance too much to be able to properly quantify them. If anything this discussion favors the Orks in that we're assuming they have the positioning to have their Nob attack and all other 29 models, in game that's not always the case with such cumbersome units.

I don't speak much about Nobs because I don't have a lot of experience with them.

Thanks for the specific numbers. The reason that I don't include a transport, actually, is that a 30-strong boyz squad can't take one; if it could, I would.

If you want to get into shooting, I'm afraid the Purifiers actually come off worse. 30 Shoota boyz put out 60 S4 shots, with 20 expected hits, and every wound the Purifier squad takes is much more important than a lost Ork boy. Purifers do have longer range, but they can't stay out of the 18" range envelope for very long, particularly not since an Ork unit that's out of range will simply Run to close the distance, and shortly pin them against the board edge. Purifers will definitively lose a shoot-out; it'll be even worse when you consider that you could exactly even the points out by giving the Shoota Boyz 2 Big Shootas, which would allow to throw a few higher-strength shots.

But that isn't what we're talking about; we're talking about the assault. In the assault, yes, Purifiers win. I believe I've mentioned that in every single post, haven't I? That doesn't make GK a better assault army than Orks.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Movac wrote:

8 Purifiers 2 with Psycannons, 1 hammer, and 4 hals costs 225(w/o rhino), 30 boyz with a klaw costs 215, this is as close are we're going to get on points and what people actually run. If you're going to be sarcastic and pretend to be intelligent, at least get your own numbers correct. The Purifiers win this encounter as has been shown in several other posts in this thread without firing a shot which is not realistic and excludes their other powerful function. I don't include the transport as part of this because you don't either. Transports effect positioning and circumstance too much to be able to properly quantify them. If anything this discussion favors the Orks in that we're assuming they have the positioning to have their Nob attack and all other 29 models, in game that's not always the case with such cumbersome units.

I don't speak much about Nobs because I don't have a lot of experience with them.

Thanks for the specific numbers. The reason that I don't include a transport, actually, is that a 20-strong boyz squad can't take one; if it could, I would.

If you want to get into shooting, I'm afraid the Purifiers actually come off worse. 30 Shoota boyz put out 60 S4 shots, with 20 expected hits, and every wound the Purifier squad takes is much more important than a lost Ork boy. Purifers do have longer range, but they can't stay out of the 18" range envelope for very long, particularly not since an Ork unit that's out of range will simply Run to close the distance, and shortly pin them against the board edge. Purifers will definitively lose a shoot-out; it'll be even worse when you consider that you could exactly even the points out by giving the Shoota Boyz 2 Big Shootas, which would allow to throw a few higher-strength shots.

But that isn't what we're talking about; we're talking about the assault. In the assault, yes, Purifiers win. I believe I've mentioned that in every single post, haven't I? That doesn't make GK a better assault army than Orks.

You missed the point about the transport. I'm aware you can't fit 30 boyz in one, but you included it in the squad's point cost without making any account for the mobility it brings the squad. That can't be properly quantified so I kitted out a probable Purifier squad close to 230. (edit: The mob comes to 230 with 2 big shooters and a boss pole)

For a person with a dumb "i am a gewd tacticaltician man" sig you sure do put a lot of faith in your fleet rolls when making your "on the charge" arguments.

Seaward wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:Black Templars: army wide Preferred enemy for ALL enemy units, Furious Charge Terminators, Initiates with close combat weapons for free, Blessed hull LRC's. Pack 24 LC termies into a LRC's with blessed hull, roll em' onto the opponent's doorstep and unleash the motherf*****g fury! Plus BT run forward when they take casualties instead of backward and are fearless in close combat. Finally, take twenty man Crusader Squads (ten initiates, ten neophytes) and you'll have units that can shred up large Ork boy squads without much hassle.

It's definitely not Black Templars. Their Assault Terminators are the best, but everything else used for assault in that 'dex pretty much blows compared to other dedicated assault units.

It arguably should be Black Templars, but we'll just have to see what the future holds. Unfortunately, if rumors are true, what the future holds is orks in power armor.

It's true, we don't have many units, let alone assault ones, and the units we have a lot of the time do feth all (PA Sword Brethren).

Movac wrote:

You missed the point about the transport. I'm aware you can't fit 30 boyz in one, but you included it in the squad's point cost without making any account for the mobility is brings the squad. That can't be properly quantified so I kitted out a probable Purifier squad close to 230. (edit: The mob comes to 230 with 2 big shooters and a boss pole)

Ah, I see. Fair enough. I included the transport just because, well. . . Gk take transports, and Orks don't. I don't often see MEQ infantry without transports, honestly; as far as I'm concerned, it's just part of the unit cost. It is difficult to account for the mobility in terms of mathhammer, but, well. . . that's one of the limitations of mathhammer.

Realistically, GK spend some fraction of their points on transports. This does mean that their squads aren't going to be as powerful, at a given points level, as a unit that didn't; they've traded power for mobility. If you're comparing the combat effectiveness of units, then yes, units that take transports suffer a bit by comparison. In the actual game, this is compensated for via added mobility and protecting from being shot up; mathhammer can't really handle that.

I'll join the wisearses on the vote of Tau, but in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

It Should be Tyranids or Orks. Sadly, I think GK/SW/BA have it.

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

They are good for a shooty army, but not the best.

im2randomghgh wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

They are good for a shooty army, but not the best.

This is the assault thread...

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

Whiskey+Dakka=Wardragoon saying stuff that makes no sense........heh, though I do have to say PW blobs are funny

Wardragoon wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

Whiskey+Dakka=Wardragoon saying stuff that makes no sense........heh, though I do have to say PW blobs are funny

pw blobs are funny, but if we're going to say anyone for a scary amount of them, the GK should be at the top of your list