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Death company!!! (including the dreads lol)

im2randomghgh wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Yeah, but the walkers are generally worse, so BA win the walker catagory

Quantity>Quality

With that much of their army immune to small arms, their 1500pt army is going to be fighting about 1000pts of yours.

But 1000 can take out that 1500, so Quality>Quantity

TheAngrySquig wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Yeah, but the walkers are generally worse, so BA win the walker catagory

Quantity>Quality

With that much of their army immune to small arms, their 1500pt army is going to be fighting about 1000pts of yours.

But 1000 can take out that 1500, so Quality>Quantity

Except it can't because I outnumber them 4:1 or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Where else go you find WS10?

Avatar of Khaine...?

And I vote GK in reality, but Daemons in my heart... *sniff*

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Avatar of Khaine...?

And I vote GK in reality, but Daemons in my heart... *sniff*

Avatar of Khaine counts as a daemon

True, but hes in the Eldar codex :p

Besides Kharn mocks the WS chart, he might aswell be WS 99, smacking your Blood Thirster on 2+

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:True, but hes in the Eldar codex :p

Besides Kharn mocks the WS chart, he might aswell be WS 99, smacking your Blood Thirster on 2+

He can still be eaten for breakfast before even getting the chance to attack against An'ggrath, so don't mock daemons there is just about nothing that can beat him in CC.

I play Daemons alot, so I know how nasty they all are :p and An'ggrath is our titan equivilent so ofc Kharn has no chance!

And I did see Anggrath get dragged down by Ghazkull and 30 MANZ in an apoc game, was hilarious to watch.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:I play Daemons alot, so I know how nasty they all are :p and An'ggrath is our titan equivilent so ofc Kharn has no chance!

And I did see Anggrath get dragged down by Ghazkull and 30 MANZ in an apoc game, was hilarious to watch.

30 Nobz?

If it's boyz then he was just rolling like gak.

If it's nobz, there was probably a 50/50 chance to be had.

And we have actual titans we can use so...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well vs Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are aburd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

"When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow" wtf does that even mean? The only unit that's a threat from BA is the DC dread, and you're not even arguing it, but I'll point it out for you so that you can.

If you had read the entire thread you would have seen a well done post about what a couple Purifiers do to a bunch of Orks.

GK>Daemons>BA>Orks is how I see the chain right now with daemons on the same foot as BA except when fighting gk

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

"When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow" wtf does that even mean? The only unit that's a threat from BA is the DC dread, and you're not even arguing it, but I'll point it out for you so that you can.

If you had read the entire thread you would have seen a well done post about what a couple Purifiers do to a bunch of Orks.

You'll also see that orks still win. In my orks troop section i can fit 180 boyz and 6 nobz, how about you?

And that means if fnp PA 4 attacks on the charge models outnumber you, you're fething dead.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

"When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow" wtf does that even mean? The only unit that's a threat from BA is the DC dread, and you're not even arguing it, but I'll point it out for you so that you can.

If you had read the entire thread you would have seen a well done post about what a couple Purifiers do to a bunch of Orks.

You'll also see that orks still win. In my orks troop section i can fit 180 boyz and 6 nobz, how about you?

And that means if fnp PA 4 attacks on the charge models outnumber you, you're fething dead.

FNP and PA mean nothing to GK, they ALL have force weapons and most of them will attack first even with your FC.

Sekminara wrote:Ok, so lets say we have one purifier (you shot the hell out of his squad before you charged), who makes his psychic test, against 100 orks. Thats ~50 dead orks.

More realistically, you have 5 purifiers up against 20 Boyz (your mob got shot up moving downfield). Orks just busted up the purifier's rhino. Purifiers charge, 7 orks down due to flame, purifiers attack w/ 3 attacks per. 5 more orks die. 7 orks attack (in fact, lets say they get their charge attacks as well) 4 attacks per. 2 Purifiers down (bad saves). Nob attacks, 2 Purifiers down. Orks lose combat by 8. They run, get run down.

If they had 11 Boyz left (magic!) they would take ~6 fearless wounds. Next round of combat its 1 Nob, 4 Boyz vs 1 Purifier. Purifier takes 2 down w/ flame. 1 w/ his attacks. Nob cleans up. Orks cheat, but win. He's just making a hypothetical here

You still spend 155p to kill 120.

Yea the math was a bit hokey, but you get the point. Purifiers destroy orks point for point. The more orks you add, the less efficient they are against flame.
But that's in vacuum, with one pitted directly against another. Not representative of whose actually better on the battlefield. 20 wounds vs 5 wounds is always a consideration one would have to make.

You still need help with your reading skills my friend, but I reposted it and highlighted and explained the part that gave you trouble. The more you spam troops, the harder you will lose vs GK. Most people that play GK pay the Crowe Tax and will have a lot of Purifiers. I'm not even going to elaborate more on what Sekminara said because he already said it very well.

10 feel no pain 2 wound paladins with force weapons that don't require a psychic test (brotherhood banner anyone?) Completely diversified for endless shenanigans, and packing 4 psycannons to soften up targets before they strike. Can't think of much that could withstand that tbh. My vote is for grey knights as the premier assault army. Your 30 boyz are worthless when shooting cuts that number in half, and a flurry of higher initiative power weapon attacks hit home. Same goes for gaunts/gants/gargs/guard blobs.

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

"When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow" wtf does that even mean? The only unit that's a threat from BA is the DC dread, and you're not even arguing it, but I'll point it out for you so that you can.

If you had read the entire thread you would have seen a well done post about what a couple Purifiers do to a bunch of Orks.

You'll also see that orks still win. In my orks troop section i can fit 180 boyz and 6 nobz, how about you?

And that means if fnp PA 4 attacks on the charge models outnumber you, you're fething dead.

FNP and PA mean nothing to GK, they ALL have force weapons and most of them will attack first even with your FC.

Sekminara wrote:Ok, so lets say we have one purifier (you shot the hell out of his squad before you charged), who makes his psychic test, against 100 orks. Thats ~50 dead orks.

More realistically, you have 5 purifiers up against 20 Boyz (your mob got shot up moving downfield). Orks just busted up the purifier's rhino. Purifiers charge, 7 orks down due to flame, purifiers attack w/ 3 attacks per. 5 more orks die. 7 orks attack (in fact, lets say they get their charge attacks as well) 4 attacks per. 2 Purifiers down (bad saves). Nob attacks, 2 Purifiers down. Orks lose combat by 8. They run, get run down.

If they had 11 Boyz left (magic!) they would take ~6 fearless wounds. Next round of combat its 1 Nob, 4 Boyz vs 1 Purifier. Purifier takes 2 down w/ flame. 1 w/ his attacks. Nob cleans up. Orks cheat, but win. He's just making a hypothetical here

You still spend 155p to kill 120.

Yea the math was a bit hokey, but you get the point. Purifiers destroy orks point for point. The more orks you add, the less efficient they are against flame.
But that's in vacuum, with one pitted directly against another. Not representative of whose actually better on the battlefield. 20 wounds vs 5 wounds is always a consideration one would have to make.

You still need help with your reading skills my friend, but I reposted it and highlighted and explained the part that gave you trouble. The more you spam troops, the harder you will lose vs GK. Most people that play GK pay the Crowe Tax and will have a lot of Purifiers. I'm not even going to elaborate more on what Sekminara said because he already said it very well.

And you're missing the part where in this scenario the orks aren't charging, or shooting. If the twenty orks and nob get the charge, after shooting, you can bet those purifiers gak themselves something mighty.

20 pistol shots and 80 attacks +nob=

im2randomghgh wrote:


20 pistol shots and 80 attacks +nob=

You're missing the part where this is a vacuum style discussion.

Comparing Ork shooting to GK.....lol(both sides get shots if one does and for the sake of an ASSAULT discussion there is no shooting) You don't get all those attacks.Psychicpowers, then initiative order, where the Orks are last.

Trolling or you have a mental defficiency, in either case I don't continue discussions with such a person

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:


20 pistol shots and 80 attacks +nob=

You're missing the part where this is a vacuum style discussion.

Comparing Ork shooting to GK.....lol(both sides get shots if one does and for the sake of an ASSAULT discussion there is no shooting) You don't get all those attacks.Psychicpowers, then initiative order, where the Orks are last.

Trolling or you have a mental defficiency, in either case I don't continue discussions with such a person

Whatever.

Even with initiative order, orks charging=orks winning.

Just saying, A Ghaz deathstar will kill every single unit in the entire GK codex x50

The assault also depends on squad sizes. Most dont run a full 10 purifiers squad. If you ran a 5 squad say like some of the razorback spam lists the 5 would stand no chance to a 30 boyz squad unless the ork player roller terribly. As to the shooting well I have yet to play an ork without a mek with a kff sooo shooting doesnt always work out so well espeacially last game when he made 25 out of 30 saves so still had 25 orks chargin in..

Draigo wrote:The assault also depends on squad sizes. Most dont run a full 10 purifiers squad. If you ran a 5 squad say like some of the razorback spam lists the 5 would stand no chance to a 30 boyz squad unless the ork player roller terribly. As to the shooting well I have yet to play an ork without a mek with a kff sooo shooting doesnt always work out so well espeacially last game when he made 25 out of 30 saves so still had 25 orks chargin in..

This.

Plus, when you get a shooty ork list, their dakka can outshoot most armies, excepting maybe DE, Tau and IG.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:The assault also depends on squad sizes. Most dont run a full 10 purifiers squad. If you ran a 5 squad say like some of the razorback spam lists the 5 would stand no chance to a 30 boyz squad unless the ork player roller terribly. As to the shooting well I have yet to play an ork without a mek with a kff sooo shooting doesnt always work out so well espeacially last game when he made 25 out of 30 saves so still had 25 orks chargin in..

This.

Plus, when you get a shooty ork list, their dakka can outshoot most armies, excepting maybe DE, Tau and IG.

Or arguably necrons.

Anyways this is an assault thread.

5 purifiers, vs 30 orks, orks get charge (for all the good that will do) Purifiers get off cleansing flame, 15 orks get hit by it, 13 die. Purifiers get 10 attacks, 5 hit, 2.5 wound/kill (round to 2). 14 boyz and a nob remain. Orks swing. assuming shoota boyz since not many people take 30 man sluggas. 42 attacks 22 hit, 11 wound, just under 4 dead GKs, nob finishes them off. Luckily orks win combat by default, if even a single GK is left alive, that is 11 fearless wounds on 6+ armor. That being said that 30 man mob doesn't really have an assault left in it except against some weak unit, and just got mauled by a unit that was about half of its cost.

If you are going to compare units in assault, you need to have equivalent points, and stop moving goalposts. "But but but you can't kill a ghaz deathstar in CC, but you can't kill x unit with y unit because of z blah blah blah."

Best assault army is daemons, because they don't have a choice. Not because they are good. Next best assault army is nids. See daemons for reason why. BA is kinda an assaulty army, but honestly they aren't reliant on assault, and the assault marine isn't all that scary. GKs are similar to BA, but better in many ways and worse in others (better weapons, worse mobility). DE have probably the scariest combo of assault units (wyches, incubi, beastpacks covers the tarpit, marine killer, and speedy multi assault roles), but too many reason to run the shooting units. Orks are assault because they don't have shooting strong as PKs. CSM are mostly just vanilla with the good rules taken out, bad rules put in, and the price increased for dubious increase in CC ability.

I'll settle this once and for all.

I'm hosting a tournament in a month. The grand prize is one hundred million US dollars. All registrants get $1000 to build the army of their choice, with any codex they want. The only rule is said list has to be what other players at the tournament would consider an assault list.

All you have to do to register is reply with which codex you intend to use.

That should do it.

notabot187 wrote:Best assault army is daemons, because they don't have a choice. Not because they are good. Next best assault army is nids. See daemons for reason why. BA is kinda an assaulty army, but honestly they aren't reliant on assault, and the assault marine isn't all that scary. GKs are similar to BA, but better in many ways and worse in others (better weapons, worse mobility). DE have probably the scariest combo of assault units (wyches, incubi, beastpacks covers the tarpit, marine killer, and speedy multi assault roles), but too many reason to run the shooting units. Orks are assault because they don't have shooting strong as PKs. CSM are mostly just vanilla with the good rules taken out, bad rules put in, and the price increased for dubious increase in CC ability.

I dont think this logic really holds. Something isn't the best just because it can't do anything else, look at Tau, they are awful in assault, but have great shooting, still they don't have the best shooting

Tzeentch daemons, they have the element of surprise, noone suspects them until its too late.

Xeriapt wrote:Tzeentch daemons, they have the element of surprise, noone suspects them until its too late.

Dark Eldar have that category locked down with Sliscus alone. Deep Strike 20+ dark lances, kill ALL the things

Orks.

Yes, Ork boyz get beaten up by Purifiers. Well. . . kinda. 5 purifiers against 30 boyz with nob is just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks), and looking at the math it's a pretty even fight; basically, whoever gets the charge has a significantly better than even chance of winning. No matter who wins, the other side takes pretty serious casualties

Think about that. The basic ork troop can fight GK Elites, and hold them to a draw. If a 30-man Ork squad gets their face wrecked in CC and is cut down to ten or twelve models. . . oh well. They get on an objective; they slide in behind a charging Nobz squad and add another PK+30 attacks to an assault; they're still an effective unit. If a 5-man Purifier squad gets beat up against an Ork unit, even if they win they're down to one or two models, and are basically hors de combat from that point on.

Furthermore, there isn't any other infantry assault unit in the game as devastating to hordes as Purifiers. If Ork Boyz can fight Purifers, the one unit above all that is specifically DESIGNED to wreck their gak, on a nearly-even basis, that's just more evidence that they shred anything that ISN'T quite so brutal. And they certainly do; BA assault squads, any variant of Terminators, Grey Hunters, whatever it is, match up any infantry you care to name against equal points of Ork Boyz and it dies. Hard. Same goes for most characters and Elite units, for that matter. And that isn't even considering that they get a surprising amount of dakka for their points. The only real downside to Ork Boyz is that they take up a lot of space on the table, and they take a long time to move.

And we haven't even talked about Nobz. Nobz are the most vicious, unit-massacring assault unit around. Even without giving them BCs or PKs, every single one of them throws down 5 S5 attacks on the charge; hell, most Codexes have to use HQs or Special Characters to do that kind of damage! And, of course, they're easy to diversify for WA shenanigans, and you can pack the squad chock-full of BCs and PKs to ensure that you can bring the pain down on anything that catches your eye. They've got FNP with a Painboy; they've got WS 5 with a Waagh! Banner; they've got a hilariously long assault range if you bring Ghazghkull, and there's no reason NOT to bring Ghazghkull because he's also one of the best CC characters in the game. Then there's MANZ, who aren't the most flexible assault unit or the most effective in all situations, but three or four in a trukk make an excellent, cheap cruise missile with a whole lotta S9 PK attacks.

The whole Ork Codex is designed around this idea; mass numbers and hundreds of attacks that can pound through any unit, no matter how tough, especially in assault. And it's really, really good at it.

Black Templars: army wide Preferred enemy for ALL enemy units, Furious Charge Terminators, Initiates with close combat weapons for free, Blessed hull LRC's. Pack 24 LC termies into a LRC's with blessed hull, roll em' onto the opponent's doorstep and unleash the motherf*****g fury! Plus BT run forward when they take casualties instead of backward and are fearless in close combat. Finally, take twenty man Crusader Squads (ten initiates, ten neophytes) and you'll have units that can shred up large Ork boy squads without much hassle.

TheAngrySquig wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Best assault army is daemons, because they don't have a choice. Not because they are good. Next best assault army is nids. See daemons for reason why. BA is kinda an assaulty army, but honestly they aren't reliant on assault, and the assault marine isn't all that scary. GKs are similar to BA, but better in many ways and worse in others (better weapons, worse mobility). DE have probably the scariest combo of assault units (wyches, incubi, beastpacks covers the tarpit, marine killer, and speedy multi assault roles), but too many reason to run the shooting units. Orks are assault because they don't have shooting strong as PKs. CSM are mostly just vanilla with the good rules taken out, bad rules put in, and the price increased for dubious increase in CC ability.

I dont think this logic really holds. Something isn't the best just because it can't do anything else, look at Tau, they are awful in assault, but have great shooting, still they don't have the best shooting

It is a sad day when my tau, who can only shoot and do nothing else, can be outshot by IG AND assaulted by them

Banzaimash wrote:Black Templars: army wide Preferred enemy for ALL enemy units, Furious Charge Terminators, Initiates with close combat weapons for free, Blessed hull LRC's. Pack 24 LC termies into a LRC's with blessed hull, roll em' onto the opponent's doorstep and unleash the motherf*****g fury! Plus BT run forward when they take casualties instead of backward and are fearless in close combat. Finally, take twenty man Crusader Squads (ten initiates, ten neophytes) and you'll have units that can shred up large Ork boy squads without much hassle.

It's definitely not Black Templars. Their Assault Terminators are the best, but everything else used for assault in that 'dex pretty much blows compared to other dedicated assault units.

It arguably should be Black Templars, but we'll just have to see what the future holds. Unfortunately, if rumors are true, what the future holds is orks in power armor.