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Chesh wrote:It's in the Blood Angels codex.

p. 16 under "955.M41 The Gehenna Campaign"

Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.

(emphasis mine)

Wait a minute.......is that verbatim from the book? Are you f ing joking? There are SO many things wrong with that paragraph! I used to think the GK codex was the greatest injustice ever to stain a piece of paper......I stand corrected. How can people defend his writing?

Yep, that's word for word the "canon fluff" for the Blood Angels according to Mister Ward's codex.

Edit: this seems topical:

Honestly, the only things that rub me the wrong way about Matt Ward are:
Ultramarine Fayboyism
He tends to create ultra-powerful IC's with little regard to balance, however, power gamers flock to these armies, looking for any edge that will let them win.

He tends to stretch the limits of "acceptable" fluff, which i believe is the largest part of it however, but in a universe so vast, it isn't really the fluff that I find hard to swallow.

That being said, I thought the Necrons codex was actually well written.

bmoleski wrote:

Chesh wrote:It's in the Blood Angels codex.

p. 16 under "955.M41 The Gehenna Campaign"

Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.

(emphasis mine)

Wait a minute.......is that verbatim from the book? Are you f ing joking? There are SO many things wrong with that paragraph! I used to think the GK codex was the greatest injustice ever to stain a piece of paper......I stand corrected. How can people defend his writing?

I see nothing wrong with this. Care to explain exactly what gets your goat?

At Kaldor

First of all, the whole story sounds like it was written by a young child, but that's neither here nor there. Second, I find it unlikely that a Hive Fleet just "appears" in orbit. I get from the Nid fluff they can be hard to detect, but no when they're in your backyard crappin' on your veggie garden. But I can let that slide. Third, Space Marines allying with xenos? Creatures who are supposed to be less than the scum on the bottom of their boots? Blasphemy. But you know what? I can let that slide too, because it isn't the first time the IOM has allied with xenos. What I can't let slide, is the fact that when the nids where defeated, they BA let the Necrons just go on their merry way! And why? Because they were tired and didn't think they could win? What is that garbage?!?! Space Marines don't quit because they are tired, or because they don't think they can win!!!! Helsreach anyone? Ward made the BA look like gutless weenies. And I also don't believe that the Necrons would just let the BA army go either. It's not the kind of thing that has been established throughout the entirety of 40k lore. It doesn't makes sense. That is my opinion.

If I didn't know better.....I'd say you were Mr. Ward in disguise......hmmmm lol just joking

bmoleski wrote:What I can't let slide, is the fact that when the nids where defeated, they BA let the Necrons just go on their merry way! And why? Because they were tired and didn't think they could win? What is that garbage?!?!

So you started with 40 Marines, and fought the Necrons to a stalemate. Now you've had to fight off some Tyranids, and you've got 12 Marines left. You have no idea how many Necrons are left.

Do you:

a) risk the lives of these infinitely precious Marines on a potentially futile attack with zero current intelligence?

or

b) withdraw

uhhhhh.... A. The alien must die. The alien must be purged. Fear not when the odds are against you. You must know no fear. The Emperor protects. The Emperor's will must be done.



The real heresy was allying with the necrons in the first place. No self-respecting marine would ever ally with those reprehensible alien scum. It's all they can do to ally with Tau or Eldar, and those aliens are basically good guys. Necrons are soul-sucking space skeletons who hate all living things. There's no allying with them.

Kaldor wrote:

bmoleski wrote:What I can't let slide, is the fact that when the nids where defeated, they BA let the Necrons just go on their merry way! And why? Because they were tired and didn't think they could win? What is that garbage?!?!

So you started with 40 Marines, and fought the Necrons to a stalemate. Now you've had to fight off some Tyranids, and you've got 12 Marines left. You have no idea how many Necrons are left.

Do you:

a) risk the lives of these infinitely precious Marines on a potentially futile attack with zero current intelligence?

or

b) withdraw

Sorry but the Marines' typical modus operandi (especially if they're BAs) is meathead bravado. Hell, on Space Marine you pretty much take on a whole Ork Waagh with three guys ;P

Marines never give up, y'all!

Henners91 wrote:
Sorry but the Marines' typical modus operandi (especially if they're BAs) is meathead bravado. Hell, on Space Marine you pretty much take on a whole Ork Waagh with three guys ;P

Marines never give up, y'all!

Until you get an incident where Dante, who believes he is "fated" for some grand conflict and to essentially be the Savior of the Universe, is in charge.

For that matter, the Eldar have worked alongside the Astartes before. The reality of the situation on the ground is not as inflexible as Imperial doctrine and the less-fanatical Astartes recognize that.

For me its the Fluff. Necrons can kill and shatter their gods, but couldn't beat the Eldar way back when? And Draigo... just, Draigo...

I mean, think of it like this. We know the fluff and how things should be in the setting. We've had the background for years, and then some guy just comes over and flips it the upside down for the hell of it. Just look at the HH series to see how people are mad on them changing the timeline and just basically making crap up so it doesn't even fit as it should. (Magnus' warning to the Emp)

Ex. Transformers and TMNT vs. Micheal Bay.

I didn't mind the first Transformers movie. It's the other two i despise. And oh yes, he's doing TMNT.. and making them ing aliens...

Kanluwen wrote:

For that matter, the Eldar have worked alongside the Astartes before. The reality of the situation on the ground is not as inflexible as Imperial doctrine and the less-fanatical Astartes recognize that.

And the setting would be horrendously boring if it were. That's one of the reasons I prefer Ward's fluff over some of the overtly monotone one-fluff-schtick-versions of older armies such as OldCrons or Black Templars. The are good for that one half-second of "oh-that's-a-cool-idea". But the moment you try to do something.. anything.. with them to make them "your own", to play a campaign, indulge is some fan-fiction writing for your lovingly painted commander, etc.. they fall enormously short because of their inflexibility and one-dimensionality.

I guess that makes Ward's fluff less attractive to people who do not like to delve into the rich fluff of 40K and who are overwhelmed if not every faction can be fully described in half a tweat, but Ward's work are an enormous enrichement of 40K for every committed hobbyist and people who actually love to explore and immerse themselves in the 40K universe. Infact, looking at some of the references to the Horus Heresy novels put into the Grey Knights Codex, he seems to be the only current Codex Writer who actually follows 40K literary trends and developments (as opposed to, for example, the immense disconnect between BL Space Wolves and the Thunderhawk-stealing, womanizing, Thundersquirrel-riding, literally-raised-by-wolves Kelly Space Wolves).

Kaldor wrote:

bmoleski wrote:What I can't let slide, is the fact that when the nids where defeated, they BA let the Necrons just go on their merry way! And why? Because they were tired and didn't think they could win? What is that garbage?!?!

So you started with 40 Marines, and fought the Necrons to a stalemate. Now you've had to fight off some Tyranids, and you've got 12 Marines left. You have no idea how many Necrons are left.

Do you:

a) risk the lives of these infinitely precious Marines on a potentially futile attack with zero current intelligence?

or

b) withdraw

I'd pick a) every time. It's ingrained into the marine psyche to pick a). To not pick a) is to be a blaspheme against the Emperor.

To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.

Kanluwen wrote:To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.

This! Space Marines are meant to die for a purpose. Dieing without achieving anything is anathema to doctrine.

Add to that the fact (that Kan brought up) that this was Dante, who is quite different from every single other marine... Yeah, it wasn't out of character.

Kanluwen wrote:To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.

So they pussy out as soon as the going gets tough? That's really badass.

Joey wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.

So they pussy out as soon as the going gets tough? That's really badass.

Way to completely misread the situation. /highfive

Joey wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.

So they pussy out as soon as the going gets tough? That's really badass.

Post=Exalted

Joey wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.

So they pussy out as soon as the going gets tough? That's really badass.

I think you really need to start reading posts before replying. The "Quote" function even allows you to do so.

The whole purpose of the Astartes is to be a force multiplier. They're deployed into situations which would be suicidal for the Guard, but they can come out of without any significant casualties.

Even before Ward came around, the Astartes were like this. If they need to go into a situation where they will have to die but their deaths will mean something?
They'll go in without complaint. But their troops are not going to be sent running and waving sticks at an enemy position which they cannot feasibly take.

Kanluwen wrote:

Joey wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.

So they pussy out as soon as the going gets tough? That's really badass.

I think you really need to start reading posts before replying. The "Quote" function even allows you to do so.

The whole purpose of the Astartes is to be a force multiplier. They're deployed into situations which would be suicidal for the Guard, but they can come out of without any significant casualties.

Even before Ward came around, the Astartes were like this. If they need to go into a situation where they will have to die but their deaths will mean something?
They'll go in without complaint. But their troops are not going to be sent running and waving sticks at an enemy position which they cannot feasibly take.

The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.

bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.

That's because SM aren't always alone?

If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force. There are certainly exceptions to this(the Scythes of the Emperor as an example, who were almost wiped out facing a Tyranid hive fleet because they chose to make a stand on their home world), but the scope of the conflict, the foe being faced, the location, etc all play into the factors that would be considered.

Astartes are not, contrary to popular belief, mindless brutes. They think things through, and this is something you have to keep in context.

The thing is the way it's explained. It's explained that betraying a temporary xenos ally wouldn't sit right with the marines. I can understand the argument that they were understrength enough to where they didn't want to risk a purposeless defeat and pulled back, but seriously? They let the Necron go because they simply didn't want to fight an ally?

That's the biggest ing pile of bull that I've ever heard!

Chesh wrote:The thing is the way it's explained. It's explained that betraying a temporary xenos ally wouldn't sit right with the marines. I can understand the argument that they were understrength enough to where they didn't want to risk a purposeless defeat and pulled back, but seriously? They let the Necron go because they simply didn't want to fight an ally?

That's the biggest ing pile of bull that I've ever heard!

Because SM have never had xenos allies before. Especially the oldest living space marine other than Bjorn...

They've had temporary alliances, but as soon as the reason for that alliance disappeared, the fight resumed between the marines and their allies. It never "seemed dishonorable" until Ward decided to brofist the Necrons and Blood Angels.

Oh - also, CS Goto. Maybe that's who's been ghostwriting Ward's fluff?

Chesh wrote:They've had temporary alliances, but as soon as the reason for that alliance disappeared, the fight resumed between the marines and their allies. It never "seemed dishonorable" until Ward decided to brofist the Necrons and Blood Angels.

Psst. Pretre's comment was sarcasm.
Most notable example are the Eldar, who have allied with Astartes before quite a few times. And in doing so...more often than not they didn't kill each other right afterwards.

Oh - also, CS Goto. Maybe that's who's been ghostwriting Ward's fluff?

There's no pedophile Farseer, backflipping Terminators, or Marines with multilasers.

So no, it's not C.S. Goto. To compare Ward to Goto is reaaaaaaaaaaaaally reaching.

Zweischneid wrote:

Durza wrote:

Atma01 wrote:We should play the same game that we do on /tg/, which is 'Spot Mat Ward's posts!'. It assumes that Mat Ward is actually one of the posters defending his stuff, and we call him out and tell him to go to bed. Haven't managed to catch him yet, he is a sneaky little git.

Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.

Found him.

So? I am both ten years old and making a solid salary writing GW products for a living. Life's good!

You are one wascally wabbit.

Chesh wrote:They've had temporary alliances, but as soon as the reason for that alliance disappeared, the fight resumed between the marines and their allies. It never "seemed dishonorable" until Ward decided to brofist the Necrons and Blood Angels.

Oh - also, CS Goto. Maybe that's who's been ghostwriting Ward's fluff?

Codex Space Wolves 5th p. 19 or Phil Kelly wrote:
When the Ork Waagh! of Grimtusk Bloodboila looks set to consume the entire Athelaq sector, it is not only the Great Company of Egil Iron Wolf that stands in its path. A warhost of Aspect Warriors fights hard to contain the greenskin invasion in the north-west quadrant of the warzone, ultimately preventing the Space Wolves from becoming surrounded. [...].

Later, Autarch Elenduil visits the throne room of Egil Iron Wolf in great ceremony, his bodyguard of Striking Scorpions respectfully bearing the recovered bodies of fallen Space Wolves.

Kanluwen wrote:

bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.

That's because SM aren't always alone?

If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force.

Except the force wasn't overwhelming. Neither side could guarantee victory over the other.

I am not seeing an Issue with the BA/Necron thing. They teamed up to fight a bigger foe and afterword, while not allies just left. This is not uncommon in past fluff at all. It has happened many time and the SM are not mindless killing beasts, they do have the ability to think, reason and yes made decisions about when to attack and when to withdrawl.

Nothing in that says they will no longer fight those Necrons, they simply where worn down and tactical it was best to with drawl. They would not serve the IoM or their chapter by needlessly throwing away men and equipment for no gain what so ever.

Any commander picking A simply should be stripped of rank.

Durza wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.

That's because SM aren't always alone?

If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force.

Except the force wasn't overwhelming. Neither side could guarantee victory over the other.

But one side can guarantee that the majority of their forces will be rebuilt at a later date--the other can't.

Kanluwen wrote:

Durza wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.

That's because SM aren't always alone?

If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force.

Except the force wasn't overwhelming. Neither side could guarantee victory over the other.

But one side can guarantee that the majority of their forces will be rebuilt at a later date--the other can't.

Not if the force is cut apart with chainswords and broken down for scrap metal.