JotWW - is this legal?

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**rigeld2**

So since Blood Lance has a random distance, is it allowed to "accidentally" hit CC?

**Happyjew**

Poor choice, Blood Lance specifically says it "jumps" over models locked in cc.

**Brother Ramses**

-666- wrote:Wrong. You're intentionally targeting models in combat. You can't do that.

Wrong.

I am intentionally targeting a model out of close combat and the by product of intentionally targeting said model is that models in close combat are also hit. The same would apply if I were to target a model out of close combat with a blast weapon and it scatters onto a close combat. I targeted the model out of close combat, but due to the mechanics of the weapon, I have hit models in close combat. Same applies to the mechanics of JotWW.

**rigeld2**

Happyjew wrote:Poor choice, Blood Lance specifically says it "jumps" over models locked in cc.

Wasn't being argumentative, I was asking the question for real

Away from my books. Since BL says that it jumps over, and JotWW doesn't... wouldn't that mean that JotWW hit units in a combat?

It's not targeting at all (except the first unit hit). Just like you are absolutely forbidden from hitting your own models with a template weapon, but Jaws can absolutely hit your own models.

**Happyjew**

Not a problem,.

Personally I would have used Death Ray, as it is the only other Line "Template" (that I know of anyway) that doesn't specify whether or not it hits models in cc.

**Brother Ramses**

yakface wrote:
Tangent wrote:Yakface, I see what you're saying and throughout the reading of this thread I am tempted to agree with you and concede the point, but there are two things stopping me. If you can remove these two obstacles, the argument is over.

1) Nowhere in the rules does it state that ALL shooting of models locked in close combat is disallowed.

2) The ability to "accidentally" hit models that are locked in close combat with blast weapons that scatter suggests that it is not the HITTING of models that matters - it is the SHOOTING AT models that matters. This, combined with the "indiscriminate" and "hopes" quotes from the BRB implies that the prohibition is a mental one: commanders cannot willingly and purposely place friendly troops in jeopardy by shooting into close combats in which they are engaged. Clearly, hitting them by accident when you were not SHOOTING AT them is allowed.

And so, since JotWW is not shooting at ANY models other than the first one hit/targeted, the fact that other models are HIT (but not SHOT AT, as the case with scattered blast weapons) is irrelevant as to whether or not they are locked in close combat. The closest approximation to the JotWW situation hitting models OTHER than the one which is targeted is when a blast weapon hits models other than the one which was targeted. Blast weapons are allowed; why not JotWW?

Again, 99% of all shooting has literally no ability to affect enemy models; it is not indiscriminate.

So if I have 10 guys firing blotters that have a 0% chance to affect enemy models with my shooting, I can go ahead and fire at enemy models locked in combat?

The rule is that you are not allowed to fire into combat. This is what prohibits you from targeting units locked in combat with weapons such as bolters. Yes we all know that bolters cannot possibly hit enemy models, but the rule is worded as to express why you cannot fire into combat.

The expression of this rule is why you cannot place templates or blasts so that they cover any model locked in combat, even when the 'target' of the shooting isn't locked in combat itself.

Again, a template weapon has a 0% chance of actually affecting enemy models by the normal rules for placing templates, so again this is just as discriminate as the line from JotWW is.

It DOES NOT MATTER whether or not the target of JotWW is locked in combat or not, any model crossed by that line is being 'shot' by that shooting attack the same way any model covered by a template weapon is being shot by the template weapon regardless of whether or not it is part of the unit being targeted by the shooters.

One thing that you keep missing Yak is that at no time are you "shooting" at models in close combat. The RAW of JotWW as well as the FAQ are very specific in that the first model affected by the power is considered the target of the PSA. The rule is also very explicit that other models are just hit as the line passes through. Therefore you are NOT shooting into close combat, you are shooting at a model outside of close combat and as the rule for JotWW tells you, the rest are just hit as the line passes through.

As I mentioned, this is akin to firing a blast weapon at an unengaged model and who scatter then takes it onto a unit in close combat. At no time were you shooting at the unit in close combat, you were shooting at the unengaged model, however the mechanics of a blast weapon cause the unit in close combat to be hit. At no time were you shooting JotWW at a unit in close combat, you were shooting it at an unengaged model, however the mechanics of JotWW cause the unit in close combat to be hit as the line passes through.

**jwolf**

JotWW is effectively a 24" long line template. So placing it so that it hits models in combat is not allowed. Surely you wouldn't be okay with my placing a flamer template over a model and "accidentally" hitting models locked in close combat?

If it doesn't scatter, what it touches is not accidental. Targeting isn't what is restricted, intentionally shooting into close combat is.

Where do you see permission to hit your own models with JotWW, by the way? It has no exception to shooting friendly models in the text and there is none in the SW GW FAQ.

@Brother Ramses - It's like scattering a blast except that it doesn't scatter and therefore isn't anything like scattering a blast.

**rigeld2**

By Yak's argument, JotWW can't be used if it's going to hit friendly units either - because doing so is similarly forbidden.

Why is there a clause about hitting friendly units in JotWW then?

**jwolf**

rigeld2 wrote:By Yak's argument, JotWW can't be used if it's going to hit friendly units either - because doing so is similarly forbidden.

Why is there a clause about hitting friendly units in JotWW then?

There isn't one. Not in the SW Codex or in the GW FAQ.

**rigeld2**

jwolf wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:By Yak's argument, JotWW can't be used if it's going to hit friendly units either - because doing so is similarly forbidden.

Why is there a clause about hitting friendly units in JotWW then?

There isn't one. Not in the SW Codex or in the GW FAQ.

Dammit. I could swear there was. I need to stop posting when away from my books.

So you can't cast Jaws if it'll hit your own units either?

**Brother Ramses**

jwolf wrote:JotWW is effectively a 24" long line template. So placing it so that it hits models in combat is not allowed. Surely you wouldn't be okay with my placing a flamer template over a model and "accidentally" hitting models locked in close combat?

If it doesn't scatter, what it touches is not accidental. Targeting isn't what is restricted, intentionally shooting into close combat is.

Where do you see permission to hit your own models with JotWW, by the way? It has no exception to shooting friendly models in the text and there is none in the SW GW FAQ.

@Brother Ramses - It's like scattering a blast except that it doesn't scatter and therefore isn't anything like scattering a blast.

Read the actual rule and the accompanying FAQ.

The mechanics of a blast weapon can cause it to hit models in close combat despite originally targeting an unengaged model. The mechanics of JotWW can cause it to hit models in close combat despite it originally targeting an unengaged model. Exactly the same and both legal.

And you can't add words to the rules that do not exist. JotWW is NOT a 24" template. It is not a template weapon at all. To arbitrarily add it to the rules when it doesn't exist to support your argument is being disingenuous.

**Happyjew**

Of course my constant use of 'Line "Template"' probably does not help, I try not to enforce the idea that the line is a template.

Just out of curiosity, for those who say you cannot place the line so it hits models in cc at all, what about the Necron Death Ray? Or is that exempt since it is a variable line?

**Brother Ramses**

rigeld2 wrote:
jwolf wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:By Yak's argument, JotWW can't be used if it's going to hit friendly units either - because doing so is similarly forbidden.

Why is there a clause about hitting friendly units in JotWW then?

There isn't one. Not in the SW Codex or in the GW FAQ.

Dammit. I could swear there was. I need to stop posting when away from my books.

So you can't shoot if it'll hit your own units either?

No, you can easily hit your own units, you just cannot have them be the unit the power targets.

JotWW gives you an exception the the rules for targeting in the form of the FAQ. Beyond that, you still need to follow all the general rules for targeting with a PSA. However, the RAW of JotWW are specific that any other models the line touches after the first model affected are hit as the line passes through. Said other models are not targeted and thus do not follow the general rules for targeting with a PSA. They are JUST hit as the line passes through. There is no limitation on said any other models the line touches as it passes through. It is all inclusive to include both enemy and friendly models.

**rigeld2**

Brother Ramses wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
jwolf wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:By Yak's argument, JotWW can't be used if it's going to hit friendly units either - because doing so is similarly forbidden.

Why is there a clause about hitting friendly units in JotWW then?

There isn't one. Not in the SW Codex or in the GW FAQ.

Dammit. I could swear there was. I need to stop posting when away from my books.

So you can't shoot if it'll hit your own units either?

No, you can easily hit your own units, you just cannot have them be the unit the power targets.

I was hoping to have 666, yakface, or one of the others that is of the opinion that it cannot fire into CC to answer.
In short, I agree with you.

**jwolf**

Pardon me, Brother Ramses, but I did not add a rule, I just gave a convenient way of describing the JotWW line of shooting.

You, on the other hand, are adding rules. You are adding a rule that allows JotWW to shoot into close combat (no such rule exists). You are adding a rule that equates a SCATTER to PLACEMENT OF A LINE, which is not only not equivalent, but makes me question your basic literacy.

A Blast Weapon CAN scatter into combat. A shooting attack CANNOT. JotWW is either best described as a template (which cannot be placed over models in close combat) or is just a psychic shooting attack - which also cannot hit models in close combat. You need explicit written permission to break the explicit written rules, and neither the SW Codex or SW GW FAQ gives either.

**-666-**

That is really quite a stretch there Ramses. Jwolf has given an excellent example of how to visualize JotWW.

**rigeld2**

jwolf wrote:A Blast Weapon CAN scatter into combat. A shooting attack CANNOT. JotWW is either best described as a template (which cannot be placed over models in close combat) or is just a psychic shooting attack - which also cannot hit models in close combat. You need explicit written permission to break the explicit written rules, and neither the SW Codex or SW GW FAQ gives either.

So you can't hit friendly units with it either?

**jwolf**

Why would you be able to hit friendly units with it? Can you normally shoot friendly units except with scatter?

I know your argument will be targeting is prohibited, but that's the general case. JotWW has a specific case which has models besides the singular "target" hit, but shooting friendlies is certainly also generally prohibited; tesla destructors can shoot enemies and then bounce onto friendlies, so there are cases where specific allowances are made. JotWW has no specific allowance for hitting friendlies.

**rigeld2**

jwolf wrote:Why would you be able to hit friendly units with it? Can you normally shoot friendly units except with scatter?

I've never seen anyone argue against it. I'm bringing it up because of the similarity between the prohibitions for that and CC.
I've also not seen anyone argue against it being able to hit models in CC though, so there's that.

**juraigamer**

Brother Ramses wrote:

One thing that you keep missing Yak is that at no time are you "shooting" at models in close combat.

Sorry? It's classified as a PSA, and as such you must "shoot" it.

**jwolf**

rigeld2 wrote:
jwolf wrote:Why would you be able to hit friendly units with it? Can you normally shoot friendly units except with scatter?

I've never seen anyone argue against it. I'm bringing it up because of the similarity between the prohibitions for that and CC.
I've also not seen anyone argue against it being able to hit models in CC though, so there's that.

You'll find that when there's a RAW argument, I'll actually argue the RAW.

**Happyjew**

I'm still waiting on an answer to my question about the Death Ray. Can it hit friendly models and/or models locked in cc?

**jwolf**

Happyjew wrote:I'm still waiting on an answer to my question about the Death Ray. Can it hit friendly models and/or models locked in cc?

It specifically can hit friendly models in it's rules. It has no exemption to allow it hitting models in combat. It has a line length that is determined before you draw the line, so it does not have a "random" area, so no "accidental" models under the line. I see nothing that allows it to shoot into combat.

**rigeld2**

jwolf wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
jwolf wrote:Why would you be able to hit friendly units with it? Can you normally shoot friendly units except with scatter?

I've never seen anyone argue against it. I'm bringing it up because of the similarity between the prohibitions for that and CC.
I've also not seen anyone argue against it being able to hit models in CC though, so there's that.

You'll find that when there's a RAW argument, I'll actually argue the RAW.

Thus insinuating that others aren't?
That's kind of insulting.

**Brother Ramses**

jwolf wrote:Pardon me, Brother Ramses, but I did not add a rule, I just gave a convenient way of describing the JotWW line of shooting.

You, on the other hand, are adding rules. You are adding a rule that allows JotWW to shoot into close combat (no such rule exists). You are adding a rule that equates a SCATTER to PLACEMENT OF A LINE, which is not only not equivalent, but makes me question your basic literacy.

A Blast Weapon CAN scatter into combat. A shooting attack CANNOT. JotWW is either best described as a template (which cannot be placed over models in close combat) or is just a psychic shooting attack - which also cannot hit models in close combat. You need explicit written permission to break the explicit written rules, and neither the SW Codex or SW GW FAQ gives either.

You are adding rules by saying that JotWW is effectively a template weapon because a template weapon has in-game rules and ramifications.

And I am not equating a scatter to a placement of a line. I am pointing out that the by product of both game mechanics allow for models in close combat to be hit, which is legal in both cases.

You cannot target a unit in close combat. At no time with JotWW are you targeting a unit in close combat. The mechanics of the rule allow for any other model the line touches to be hit as it passes through. That is not targeting the unit in close combat and that is not shooting at the unit in close combat. That is the unit in close combat being hit as the line passes through.

Your argument only works when you liken JotWW to a template weapon, which it isn't, and doing so is being disingenuous.

**jwolf**

My argument, Brother Ramses, is that you cannot shoot units locked in combat. Why is that? Because the rules say you cannot. Certainly a regular shooting attack cannot, and the only case in the BRB where we see permission is with an accidental scatter of a blast. JotWW has nothing to do with a scattered blast; you continue to equate the two which is substantially less accurate than treating a weapon which fires an infinitely thin line 24" long as a similar to a template. I do not need the template description to be accepted to be correct; a shooting attack cannot hit units in CC unless given explicit permission to do so, and there is no such permission given to JotWW.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
jwolf wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
jwolf wrote:Why would you be able to hit friendly units with it? Can you normally shoot friendly units except with scatter?

I've never seen anyone argue against it. I'm bringing it up because of the similarity between the prohibitions for that and CC.
I've also not seen anyone argue against it being able to hit models in CC though, so there's that.

You'll find that when there's a RAW argument, I'll actually argue the RAW.

Thus insinuating that others aren't?
That's kind of insulting.

I mean no insult, rigeld2. I do mean to unequivocally state that I'm arguing the actual rules and FAQ written, and trying to give permission to JotWW to hit friendly models or those locked in CC requires an interpretation of the FAQ that exceeds the actual written words.

**rigeld2**

jwolf wrote:My argument, Brother Ramses, is that you cannot shoot units locked in combat. Why is that? Because the rules say you cannot. Certainly a regular shooting attack cannot, and the only case in the BRB where we see permission is with an accidental scatter of a blast. JotWW has nothing to do with a scattered blast; you continue to equate the two which is substantially less accurate than treating a weapon which fires an infinitely thin line 24" long as a similar to a template. I do not need the template description to be accepted to be correct; a shooting attack cannot hit units in CC unless given explicit permission to do so, and there is no such permission given to JotWW.

Shooting requires targeting.
You cannot target units in CC or friendly units.
JotWW explicitly does not target all units it hits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jwolf wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
You'll find that when there's a RAW argument, I'll actually argue the RAW.

Thus insinuating that others aren't?
That's kind of insulting.

I mean no insult, rigeld2. I do mean to unequivocally state that I'm arguing the actual rules and FAQ written, and trying to give permission to JotWW to hit friendly models or those locked in CC requires an interpretation of the FAQ that exceeds the actual written words.

"I'm right and the other side is wrong."

That... doesn't seem polite.

**jwolf**

That shooting requires targeting is clearly not true, since JotWW shoots models that it does not target.

**Brother Ramses**

juraigamer wrote:
Brother Ramses wrote:

One thing that you keep missing Yak is that at no time are you "shooting" at models in close combat.

Sorry? It's classified as a PSA, and as such you must "shoot" it.

You might want to brush up on the rulebook on the shooting phase for both weapons and PSA. You target with a PSA. At the time of targeting, the restrictions of eligible and ineligible targets comes into play. With JotWW you place a 24" line. According to the FAQ, the first model to be affected by the power, i.e., the first model the 24" line touches, is in affect the target model. Is that model in close combat? No. Is that model a friendly unit? No.

Targeting has been fulfilled.

Any other model, meaning any other besides the originally target, are hit as the line passes through. Are any of those other models the target? No. Are any of those other models restricted by the rules for targeting? No. They are models that are hit as the line passes through the original target model. At no time were they the target of the PSA and at no time were they under the restrictions for targeting a model with a PSA.

jwolf wrote:Why would you be able to hit friendly units with it? Can you normally shoot friendly units except with scatter?

I know your argument will be targeting is prohibited, but that's the general case. JotWW has a specific case which has models besides the singular "target" hit, but shooting friendlies is certainly also generally prohibited; tesla destructors can shoot enemies and then bounce onto friendlies, so there are cases where specific allowances are made. JotWW has no specific allowance for hitting friendlies.

You are able to hit friendly units with it because JotWW specifically tells you ANY other models the line touches are hit as the line passes through. Any is inclusive of both enemy and friendly models.

**jwolf**

rigeld2 wrote:
jwolf wrote:My argument, Brother Ramses, is that you cannot shoot units locked in combat. Why is that? Because the rules say you cannot. Certainly a regular shooting attack cannot, and the only case in the BRB where we see permission is with an accidental scatter of a blast. JotWW has nothing to do with a scattered blast; you continue to equate the two which is substantially less accurate than treating a weapon which fires an infinitely thin line 24" long as a similar to a template. I do not need the template description to be accepted to be correct; a shooting attack cannot hit units in CC unless given explicit permission to do so, and there is no such permission given to JotWW.

Shooting requires targeting.
You cannot target units in CC or friendly units.
JotWW explicitly does not target all units it hits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jwolf wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
You'll find that when there's a RAW argument, I'll actually argue the RAW.

Thus insinuating that others aren't?
That's kind of insulting.

I mean no insult, rigeld2. I do mean to unequivocally state that I'm arguing the actual rules and FAQ written, and trying to give permission to JotWW to hit friendly models or those locked in CC requires an interpretation of the FAQ that exceeds the actual written words.

"I'm right and the other side is wrong."

That... doesn't seem polite.

I am entirely open to having facts brought out that change my opinion. So far there have not been any facts given that dispute my position.