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And they cannot really stop AB from even doing that. AB might have to distance themselves from the data file authors a bit more, but the authors are not AB.

Since there appears to be a great deal of differing interpretations, here are the facts of the situation and our interpretation of them at this point.

1. All of the data files, save a few from long-outdated products that haven't been updated in many years and for which the author email addresses no longer work, have been re-hosted. So there has been almost zero interruption to users.

2. Thus far, not a single data file author has been contacted by GW. This significantly reinforces the working theory that someone in GW legal took action against a single site, without there being any "greater agenda" lurking behind the scenes. If GW really wanted the files to stop, they would contact the authors and/or contact us. Neither has happened.

3. The assorted data file authors are continuing to develop their respective files with every intention of releasing them in the exact way they always have. The only difference is a new hosting site, which is completely transparent to users leveraging the Updates mechanism.

This has essentially been a non-event for users. Had we chosen to stay quiet about it, probably nobody other than the data file authors would have ever noticed the change, since the availability of data files has been virtually uninterrupted through the Updates mechanism. However, it's always been our policy to be forthright with our users, so we outlined what was going on.

Based on how everything has transpired, there is no basis to assume anything has fundamentally changed regarding Games Workshop's long-standing acceptance of Army Builder data files. There is simply no evidence to support such conclusions at this point, since not *one* action that would be expected from GW in such a scenario has been taken. Had this truly been an action to stop the data files, all of the data file authors and Lone Wolf Development would have been contacted in some manner, yet no one other than the one hosting site has been contacted as of three weeks after the initial event. Every indication points towards someone in GW legal identifying the site in their standard internet scans and flagging it, without actually consulting anyone else about the 14-year acceptance of AB data files.

The declaration that Army Builder, or even the 40K data file set, is being "shut down" is akin to Chicken Little declaring "The sky is falling!" Given how things have played out thus far, there is simply no factual basis for that interpretation.

If anyone has questions for us regarding this issue, please post them in the main thread for this issue on the Lone Wolf support forums, and we'll get them answered for you as best we can.

All that being said, I do have to admit that all the wild theories are vastly more entertaining than the boring reality of the situation.

alsycho wrote:GW is trying to block them from using thier codexes. Lone Wolf put out a statement appologising for the inconvenience but said they are trying to resolve it.

It's about time GW did this. These guys have been putting calculator companies out of business for years. I have been outraged by this forever and I am just beside myself with glee that GW has finally put these robber barons of the digital age on notice.

Aerethan wrote:

helium42 wrote:

Barksdale wrote:I hope this will put an end to people giving me those ridiculous looking army list outputs.

I don't use army builder myself, but I'd much rather have my opponent hand me a AB printout at a tournament than something scribbled on a piece of paper.

I think he means here on dakka. The text output format that AB does is really terrible. Any time I submit a list online I open up notepad and type it out in a proper format that people can understand.

I mean at tournaments and here on dakka. The printouts are just a pain to read, and often contain mistakes. I much prefer people to be familiar with the rules in a codices and use them to write. Its quite easy to write up a list and, format it to be easy to read, in any decent word processing program.

Yeah, we really need to change the thread title. It's pretty damn misleading.

@lonewolfdevel: Thanks for the update!

A little off topic, but the newest update to army builder is AWESOME. Better outputs, a bit easier to get the outputs you want, I am loving it. Keep up the good work guys.

Necros wrote:Honestly, I'm surprised this didn't happen years ago. I hope the reason is because they're making their own army builder app that won't suck (even though it'll cost $87.95).

I won't hold my breath. GW's last one that came out in late 3rd edition was absolutely aweful to use.

cincydooley wrote:
Clearly I misread App and saw "Not Big Apple" peple. Doesn't change the fact that an iPad (or any tablet for that matter) is still good for PDF viewing, video watching, etc.
.

It also happens to be completely unnecessary for pdf viewing and video watching.

brettz123 wrote:

cincydooley wrote:
Clearly I misread App and saw "Not Big Apple" peple. Doesn't change the fact that an iPad (or any tablet for that matter) is still good for PDF viewing, video watching, etc.
.

It also happens to be completely unnecessary for pdf viewing and video watching.

Preach. The iPad is an excellent toy, and not much else.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Preach. The iPad is an excellent toy, and not much else.

I use my iPad extensively at work. Updating OneNote during meetings, using Splashtop to remote to one of my PCs, hooking up to a screen for demonstrations, reading PDFs/books, etc. Sure, a laptop can do similar things--at a similar price, larger real estate and much heavier. It's not for everyone but it's certainly more than a toy.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

cincydooley wrote:
Clearly I misread App and saw "Not Big Apple" peple. Doesn't change the fact that an iPad (or any tablet for that matter) is still good for PDF viewing, video watching, etc.
.

It also happens to be completely unnecessary for pdf viewing and video watching.

Preach. The iPad is an excellent toy, and not much else.

I use my iPad extensively in my classroom as an educational tool. Hooked to the projector by an Apple TV it has become an instant smart board and indispensable educational tool through multiple apps. Not to mention the students who use them in the class room have access to a collaborative/information gathering tool that allows them to far exceed anything I was capable of doing in a class room when I was in Jr. High. It is hardly a toy and nothing else.

OT glad to hear that AB isn't being shut down.

I use an I-pad to control, configure, and callibrate equipment remotely while I walk around in the auditorium when I install projectors and sound systems in movie theatres. VNC is an awsome program.

Barksdale wrote:

Aerethan wrote:

helium42 wrote:

Barksdale wrote:I hope this will put an end to people giving me those ridiculous looking army list outputs.

I don't use army builder myself, but I'd much rather have my opponent hand me a AB printout at a tournament than something scribbled on a piece of paper.

I think he means here on dakka. The text output format that AB does is really terrible. Any time I submit a list online I open up notepad and type it out in a proper format that people can understand.

I mean at tournaments and here on dakka. The printouts are just a pain to read, and often contain mistakes. I much prefer people to be familiar with the rules in a codices and use them to write. Its quite easy to write up a list and, format it to be easy to read, in any decent word processing program.

How does using an army builder print-out have anything to do with whether or not someone is familiar with their codex or not? Not quite sure I'm following you here. I also disagree that the program or data files are as prone to mistakes as you seem to imply. Most of the people I play with regularly use AB and the mistakes we have come across have been very few. And since we know our codexes, we have had no trouble spotting them. I find the printouts easy to read, and would use the program myself if there was a version made for OSX.

I use my iPad at work with the GetConsole app and redpark cable for serial access to my network equipment that I can't access remotely. I can go from doing that to a budget meeting where I need to take notes or Citrix into good old Windows to access our last century accounting software app.

Over half the Board of Directors of my company use iPads too and they're all "Sheldon" type scientists without the "gameplaying" experience or desire that Sheldon has. Meaning these guys just don't use the iPad for "fun" as you know it.

juraigamer wrote:You could always use a pen, paper and the codex. This ensures no errors are made. I've found armybuilder doesn't help you understand your codex and tends to have small errors in it.

Johnny-Crass wrote:Thank god. Honestly I have seen so many mistakes with people using army builder and they get so anal that Army Builder is right that they refuse to check their book. Finally something is being done about it and I can enjoy games against legal lists.

Barksdale wrote:
I mean at tournaments and here on dakka. The printouts are just a pain to read, and often contain mistakes. I much prefer people to be familiar with the rules in a codices and use them to write. Its quite easy to write up a list and, format it to be easy to read, in any decent word processing program.

Could you guys be a bit more specific? I'll be happy be report any mistakes you have encountered to the AB40k files maintainers.

Edited out rude comment, at 3000+ posts, you definitely know what rule #1 is at this point. MT11

ShumaGorath wrote:I'd shed a tear for army builder if i didn't have to buy it for a fourth time now because or their idiotic licencing system. They overcharge for a bad looking spreadsheet generator and are every bit as greedy as GW.
I've been using it for 8. The one where they force you to rebuy if your licence expires and you get a new computer. Licence expiration + time - any appreciable upgrade to the program = me hoping they go out of business. Army builder today is identical to what it was almost a decade ago. In any other business that would of resulted in them going bankrupt. They don't even produce their own content, users do.

Edited out rude comment. MT11
Nothing of what he says about licensing is true.

helium42 wrote:and would use the program myself if there was a version made for OSX.

FYI, a native Mac OSX version was released a couple months ago. It can be downloaded here.

Apparently, we failed in getting the word out about it. :(

lonewolfdevel wrote:

helium42 wrote:and would use the program myself if there was a version made for OSX.

FYI, a native Mac OSX version was released a couple months ago. It can be downloaded here.

Apparently, we failed in getting the word out about it. :(

Any chance in hell of getting a Linux native client? Or at least getting it to work in Wine?

daedalus wrote:

lonewolfdevel wrote:

helium42 wrote:and would use the program myself if there was a version made for OSX.

FYI, a native Mac OSX version was released a couple months ago. It can be downloaded here.

Apparently, we failed in getting the word out about it. :(

Any chance in hell of getting a Linux native client? Or at least getting it to work in Wine?

Better yet, any chance of getting you guys to design an app for my iPad or iPhone?

lonewolfdevel wrote:Since there appears to be a great deal of differing interpretations, here are the facts of the situation and our interpretation of them at this point.

1. All of the data files, save a few from long-outdated products that haven't been updated in many years and for which the author email addresses no longer work, have been re-hosted. So there has been almost zero interruption to users.

2. Thus far, not a single data file author has been contacted by GW. This significantly reinforces the working theory that someone in GW legal took action against a single site, without there being any "greater agenda" lurking behind the scenes. If GW really wanted the files to stop, they would contact the authors and/or contact us. Neither has happened.

3. The assorted data file authors are continuing to develop their respective files with every intention of releasing them in the exact way they always have. The only difference is a new hosting site, which is completely transparent to users leveraging the Updates mechanism.

This has essentially been a non-event for users. Had we chosen to stay quiet about it, probably nobody other than the data file authors would have ever noticed the change, since the availability of data files has been virtually uninterrupted through the Updates mechanism. However, it's always been our policy to be forthright with our users, so we outlined what was going on.

Based on how everything has transpired, there is no basis to assume anything has fundamentally changed regarding Games Workshop's long-standing acceptance of Army Builder data files. There is simply no evidence to support such conclusions at this point, since not *one* action that would be expected from GW in such a scenario has been taken. Had this truly been an action to stop the data files, all of the data file authors and Lone Wolf Development would have been contacted in some manner, yet no one other than the one hosting site has been contacted as of three weeks after the initial event. Every indication points towards someone in GW legal identifying the site in their standard internet scans and flagging it, without actually consulting anyone else about the 14-year acceptance of AB data files.

The declaration that Army Builder, or even the 40K data file set, is being "shut down" is akin to Chicken Little declaring "The sky is falling!" Given how things have played out thus far, there is simply no factual basis for that interpretation.

If anyone has questions for us regarding this issue, please post them in the main thread for this issue on the Lone Wolf support forums, and we'll get them answered for you as best we can.

All that being said, I do have to admit that all the wild theories are vastly more entertaining than the boring reality of the situation.

Does this mean that a data file for 6th edition 40k can still be created?

Steelmage99 wrote:The above poster should simply be ignored. He obviously have a severe dislike for Army Builder, and this leads him to talk a lot of crap apparently.
Nothing of what he says about licensing is true.

Actually, it is true, because it's a story I've heard from a couple people. Of course, the common element in all of them and presumably in Shuma's too was that there were multiple ways and opportunities to solve the issue and not have to rebuy the whole thing, they were just too lazy or apathetic to pursue any of them.

So apparently you can't update from 3.3 to 3.4 without renewing a license. So that is stupid.

But, I won't rage until some data file is made that requires 3.4 or higher as that will render the software that I have useless unless I write all the data files myself.

And I'll tell you right now Lone Wolf, I won't buy another copy of this software just so I can update. This isn't an OS where the update is some major overhaul. It's army list software in an already niche market. Don't push your luck.

daedalus wrote:Any chance in hell of getting a Linux native client? Or at least getting it to work in Wine?

There are no near-term plans for a native Linux version. However, there have been a number of users that have posted on our forums about successfully using Wine. I don't know the details, but a quick check and/or post on our forums should elicit useful info regarding how to configure Wine to utilize Army Builder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OverwatchCNC wrote:Better yet, any chance of getting you guys to design an app for my iPad or iPhone?

Stay tuned for an official announcement regarding tablet support for our products in the next few weeks...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

djones520 wrote:Does this mean that a data file for 6th edition 40k can still be created?

The 40K data file team has publicly stated in multiple places that they are hard at work on 6th Edition data files and will be releasing them according to their standard policy. That policy, which was established cooperatively with GW many years ago, is to release data file updates no sooner than 30 days after the release of a new rulebook or codex. Given the volume of changes in 6th Edition, it may be longer than 30 days, but I have no knowledge on that, and someone from the 40K team will need to weigh in with more specific info. You can also ping them directly on their website at http://www.ab40k.org.

So we should hopefully see new 6th Edition files in early August.

Thanks Lonewolf.

lonewolfdevel wrote:

daedalus wrote:Any chance in hell of getting a Linux native client? Or at least getting it to work in Wine?

There are no near-term plans for a native Linux version. However, there have been a number of users that have posted on our forums about successfully using Wine. I don't know the details, but a quick check and/or post on our forums should elicit useful info regarding how to configure Wine to utilize Army Builder.

Fair enough. Last time I checked, you guys were 'incompatible' with Wine. That was some time ago, so I'll just have to get up to speed.

daedalus wrote:

lonewolfdevel wrote:

daedalus wrote:Any chance in hell of getting a Linux native client? Or at least getting it to work in Wine?

There are no near-term plans for a native Linux version. However, there have been a number of users that have posted on our forums about successfully using Wine. I don't know the details, but a quick check and/or post on our forums should elicit useful info regarding how to configure Wine to utilize Army Builder.

Fair enough. Last time I checked, you guys were 'incompatible' with Wine. That was some time ago, so I'll just have to get up to speed.

We uncovered and addressed a number of potential Wine issues during the porting effort to OSX, as that platform shares a lot of similar underpinnings to Linux. Once we released those changes last year, users were able to get AB to operate under Wine. I haven't paid close attention to the topic, though, so I can't help beyond saying that some users reported success last year on our forums. That's why I pointed you there.

Aerethan wrote:If I was AB and GW sued me and won, I'd quickly patch the software to remove licensing, make it free, then upload it to TPB or demonoid and spread the word.

I'm that spiteful. If you want to tell me I can't sell a product because you don't want me to, I'll make it free and get it to as many people as possible. And in this case, shutting down AB won't stop data file updates.

GW won't win the war even if they win this little battle. The software WILL endure.

That would be followed by another lawsuit.

If GW already shut me down, odds are I'm broke anyway so they can sue all they want and all they'll get is my broken down 98 Jetta.

Also, it doesn't need to Lone Wolf who uploads a torrent. Anyone could do it and once the software is available for free GW can't really do much.

You can lawsuit all you want against torrents, even if you win against the originator, the torrent will always exist. And GW can't sue TPB. People have tried. All that was accomplished was sending the founders to jail for a few years, and still the site remains. There is no stopping it. GW could sue someone all they want for uploading pdf's of codices but the damage would have already been done, and the torrent won't go away.

Torrents are like a hydra. If you cut off one head another grows in it's place. If you send one downloader to prison then many more take their place on principle.

Like it or not but lawsuits against software are fruitless labor. Adobe could sue TPB for uploading CS5. The torrents for it would still exist and be downloaded. So a company accomplishes very little by suing, they don't even get some kind of fear/respect out of it. Instead lawsuits incite users to download more.

Aerethan wrote:If GW already shut me down, odds are I'm broke anyway so they can sue all they want and all they'll get is my broken down 98 Jetta.

Not every instance of a company "shutting down" involves them being broke. Many simply involve them deciding to pack up shop and close it.

Also, it doesn't need to Lone Wolf who uploads a torrent. Anyone could do it and once the software is available for free GW can't really do much.

And much like Damnatus being "leaked" and the round of C&Ds which followed, if there's even a whiff of impropriety where Lone Wolf might have been involved--they can be held accountable for trying to get around an injunction.

Torrents are like a hydra. If you cut off one head another grows in it's place. If you send one downloader to prison then many more take their place on principle.

And here comes the silliness.

You don't have any "principle" to stand on in this matter. Just spite. Acting like someone is making some ethical stand by putting the material online is, quite bluntly, ridiculous.

Fortunately Aerethan, most companies operate with a little more decorum, especially if they know that they might have to deal with the IP owner at a later date. Just because a company is shut down or is wound up, does not mean that the owners/directors won't be back in the near future with another company - it happens all the time; people go bust and start again and when they do, quite often they have to deal with the same people they negotiated with before. Releasing copyrighted material to torrent, even if it can't be proven in court, would still damage a working relationship. Why would any sensible company shoot themselves in the foot that way?