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TheRobotLol wrote:If you can't write such a huge, momumental conflict between a primarch and Draigo in a piece of writing bigger than a paragraph, don't try and cram it into one, simple.

Why not? That's how pretty much every story in 40K started. Heck, even the Horus Heresy started out as a single sentence.

Similar events to Draigo vs Morty have happened in the past: Angron and the first war for Armageddon.

So it's just a matter of assuming that this was a similar event. The gaps can be filled in at a later date.

Kaldor wrote:

TheRobotLol wrote:If you can't write such a huge, momumental conflict between a primarch and Draigo in a piece of writing bigger than a paragraph, don't try and cram it into one, simple.

Why not? That's how pretty much every story in 40K started. Heck, even the Horus Heresy started out as a single sentence.

Similar events to Draigo vs Morty have happened in the past: Angron and the first war for Armageddon.

So it's just a matter of assuming that this was a similar event. The gaps can be filled in at a later date.

Fair enough, only time will tell then.

If they haven't done anything in 10 years, then I'll continue this argument.

TheRobotLol wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

TheRobotLol wrote:If you can't write such a huge, momumental conflict between a primarch and Draigo in a piece of writing bigger than a paragraph, don't try and cram it into one, simple.

Why not? That's how pretty much every story in 40K started. Heck, even the Horus Heresy started out as a single sentence.

Similar events to Draigo vs Morty have happened in the past: Angron and the first war for Armageddon.

So it's just a matter of assuming that this was a similar event. The gaps can be filled in at a later date.

Fair enough, only time will tell then.

If they haven't done anything in 10 years, then I'll continue this argument.

lol, fair enough!

Draigo is the anthropomorphic embodiment of the Imperium, in-universe, and 40k, to us.

In-universe: the Imperium is in a never ending struggle against foes who seem like they should be able be crushed by, yet here they still are.

Outside: 40k is all about being ridiculously over the top. The whole setting is built on this principle. 40k goes to 11.

DarknessEternal wrote:Draigo is the anthropomorphic embodiment of the Imperium, in-universe, and 40k, to us.

In-universe: the Imperium is in a never ending struggle against foes who seem like they should be able be crushed by, yet here they still are.

Outside: 40k is all about being ridiculously over the top. The whole setting is built on this principle. 40k goes to 11.

Maybe - but even so, there has to be some kind of balance or hierarchy.....like you can't go over-over the top

The Imperium is not impervious to corruption, in fact it's very corrupt. Draigo is so pure he can survive indefinately inside the imaterium. Draigo isn't a metaphor for anything except awesomeness.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Imperium is not impervious to corruption, in fact it's very corrupt. Draigo is so pure he can survive indefinately inside the imaterium. Draigo isn't a metaphor for anything except awesomeness.

And that is painful truth, nothing else....

DarthMarko wrote:
Maybe - but even so, there has to be some kind of balance or hierarchy.....like you can't go over-over the top

Yes, you can. That's the point.

MarkyMark wrote:Where is that fluff about Maugan Ra? eldar codex?

Tyranid one. P28.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:The same way that Khârn "hurrs" his way through everything? Or Ghazghkull? The difference being, of course, that Khârn actually kills stuff, instead of having his work undone with ease.

Why is it that everytime the Imperium has someone that's good enough to take on a major enemy one on one it's reviled like hell (Mephiston, Calgar, Draigo, Tigurius), but when some non-Imperium dude does something equally ridiculous (Ghazghkull, Swarmlord, fething Maugan Ra not to mention Eldrad) it's generally ignored?

As for this I suspect why is that.
Both those groups are beyond reason (40k reason) powerful, but there is a slight difference what they actually defeat. (Not entirely true, but at least what is perceived by "the community").
Yes, the first group has major victories, but mainly against huge amounts of unnamed background.
Calgar beats the Avatar. The most powerful combat entity of Eldar. He killed M'kar. Permanently.
Tigurius does things with Hive Mind that only the Emperor would be able to do.
Draigo -up Montarion. What is supposed to be more powerful in Chaos (apart from the gods themselves) than Daemon Primarchs?

How about Maugan Ra? What named character did he defeat? Eldrad? Kharn? Ghazghkull? Abaddon? Even if they did defeat something it was because they had the upper hand all along and their defeated adversary probably escaped alive anyway. They barely, almost killed them but didn't.
Nobody cares how many Putty Patrollers evil guys defeated. Imperial guys go against big guys, while being at disadvantage and go with style (bare handed, heart carving...)

Like I said before, this may not be accurate, more like perceived. The point still stands.

EDIT:
Wow, this thread has 4 pages and I replied to a post week old when people already moved on. I really need to wake up before posting, disregard this post :(

DarknessEternal wrote:Draigo is the anthropomorphic embodiment of the Imperium, in-universe, and 40k, to us.

In-universe: the Imperium is in a never ending struggle against foes who seem like they should be able be crushed by, yet here they still are.

Outside: 40k is all about being ridiculously over the top. The whole setting is built on this principle. 40k goes to 11.

Actually I would say quite the opposite, and I ask in fact where you have got that impression from? 40k is all about the lone struggle in the massive universe against ridiculous odds, it is about failing and dying in that struggle, and as the quote says 'alone and unremembered'. If anything, the 'character' in understated in amongst those massively theatrical surroundings - the Primarchs and the glorious legions they once lead are long gone, the industry and technology a poor and fading resemblance of its former self, and the long and slow sinking towards destruction lies ahead. It is not about Michael Bay moments, of Bond emerging from the water pouting in his swimming trunks and firing a machine gun in each hand, or in this case an indestructible good guy 'bestriding' the most inhospitable place in the universe to kill one of its most dangerous adversaries. And I think that, perhaps subconsciously or on some other level, this is the problem that many readers have with Draigo and other bits of Matt Ward background - they don't fit, don't measure up to the ethos and character of the background that has come before.

The obvious exception of this is in the satire.. because with all extremely bleak stories you need some alleviation to give the reader a break. 'Sly Marbo' as the obvious parody, the ork warlord travelling back in time to kill himself so he can have a back-up of his favourite gun. Both of these are examples of more relatively modern writing that 'get' the original concept of the 40k universe - yes it is extremely dark, but then there are the occasional bits of obvious satire within that. Draigo kind of falls awkwardly between stables, of sounding like some kind of heroic, biblical character that is at odds with so much background around him but also can't be classed as any kind of satire. His character archetype should be fighting Megatron, or Skeletor, or perhaps fascists on the beaches of Normandy in a Battle Comic, and in my view not something now recognised as a 'canon' part of the background material. So, my criticism isn't that it is a crappy piece of writing, or that it has perhaps been overly condensed, but more that it doesn't 'fit' into the rest of the 40k universe.

I don't want it to change, because it makes for epic pictures.

Although I'm with Kaldor in the fact that the Chaos gods want him stuck there, seeing all of his efforts are for naught, and eventually hoping to tempt him to give in.

He'd be one super-mean Daemon Prince.

The last picture I do in my Draigo series, I plan to have him in a moment of depressive contemplation.

Manchu wrote:Complaining about Kaldor Draigo is like complaining about Doomrider. If you don't know who that is or don't understand what I mean then ... man, I just don't know. Maybe you're too cool to be playing with toy soldiers.

Yeah, remember that time when Doomrider overcame the Emperor's psychic might to break through the webway gate in the Imperial Palace thus becoming the first daemon to set foot upon Terra in 10 millenia? And remember how he totally killed all the custodes in the room single-handedly, did some donuts around the Golden Throne, bent the Emperor over and carved "FULGRIM" on his buttcheeks before squeeling a rad air-guitar riff, popping a wheelie and riding back to his cocaine planet? And remember how henceforth from that day on he always shows up at the same hour on the same day every year to repeat this feat, and even though the custodes are aware of this fact and muster the entire Terran defense infrastructure every year to stop him, he defeats them every single time with ease? I'm trying to remember which edition that was.

Kaldor wrote:

motyak wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Read The Emperor's Gift. The Draigo Mortarion is about a million times worse after reading the description of the attack on Angron.

You put a primarch in a story, you better bring the grade-A writing.

Oh really, and how would you propose to do that in a single paragraph?

Book on that matter maybe !?

Do you mean he should have written a book on the topic? He can't, it is codex fluff. Everything is a 1 paragraph thing really, it would severely limit any writer.

Although... getting ADB to do a book on the subject would rock my socks off!

Good luck with that. ADB had been planning on writing a number of GK books, but when the Draigo story in the GK codex came out it kind of soured him on GKs.

DeffDred wrote:Easy fix.

There is no Draigo. He is a mythical character whose stories are told to new GKs to inspire them to achieve greatness.

I have been advocating this as well

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Manchu wrote:Complaining about Kaldor Draigo is like complaining about Doomrider. If you don't know who that is or don't understand what I mean then ... man, I just don't know. Maybe you're too cool to be playing with toy soldiers.

Yeah, remember that time when Doomrider overcame the Emperor's psychic might to break through the webway gate in the Imperial Palace thus becoming the first daemon to set foot upon Terra in 10 millenia? And remember how he totally killed all the custodes in the room single-handedly, did some donuts around the Golden Throne, bent the Emperor over and carved "FULGRIM" on his buttcheeks before squeeling a rad air-guitar riff, popping a wheelie and riding back to his cocaine planet? And remember how henceforth from that day on he always shows up at the same hour on the same day every year to repeat this feat, and even though the custodes are aware of this fact and muster the entire Terran defense infrastructure every year to stop him, he defeats them every single time with ease? I'm trying to remember which edition that was.

I think we can all agree that the new Chaos dex would massively benefit from this bit of background..

(And the amusing thing is that there would still be people who would actually try and defend it )

Pacific wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Manchu wrote:Complaining about Kaldor Draigo is like complaining about Doomrider. If you don't know who that is or don't understand what I mean then ... man, I just don't know. Maybe you're too cool to be playing with toy soldiers.

Yeah, remember that time when Doomrider overcame the Emperor's psychic might to break through the webway gate in the Imperial Palace thus becoming the first daemon to set foot upon Terra in 10 millenia? And remember how he totally killed all the custodes in the room single-handedly, did some donuts around the Golden Throne, bent the Emperor over and carved "FULGRIM" on his buttcheeks before squeeling a rad air-guitar riff, popping a wheelie and riding back to his cocaine planet? And remember how henceforth from that day on he always shows up at the same hour on the same day every year to repeat this feat, and even though the custodes are aware of this fact and muster the entire Terran defense infrastructure every year to stop him, he defeats them every single time with ease? I'm trying to remember which edition that was.

I think we can all agree that the new Chaos dex would massively benefit from this bit of background..

(And the amusing thing is that there would still be people who would actually try and defend it )

The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished. Seriously, the only thing the guy hasn't done is permanently destroy the Realm of Chaos and kill the Chaos gods. Evidently this "failure" causes some to view him as some kind of tragic character for some inexplicable reason. Is Kharn a tragic character because he'll never succeed in taking every single skull in the entire galaxy? Is swarmlord a tragic character because he hasn't succeeded in eating every single carbon based lifeform in the universe?

You literally cannot write a character more powerful than Draigo without destroying the setting. And this is the only reason why Matt Ward had to put in the part about the Realm of Chaos regenerating - if it wasn't for this little bit of plot armor Chaos would cease to exist as a faction, all but destroyed by the invincible Draigo. "Don't worry daemon players! Everything grows back! Rest easy - we aren't squatting Draigoing your army! Honest!"

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished.

Huh?

All he's done is banish Mortarion and that Greater Daemon of Tzeench. How do you think he's surviving in the Warp? It is, after all, physically impossible. His very atoms should be torn one from the other. So how is he there? The only possible explanation is that the lords of the Warp, the Chaos Gods, want him to be there.

How long can one man continue to repeat the same tasks over and over before he loses motivation? What happens to him when he does? This is a much more interesting question than "How do we kill him?"

Or the Emperor is keeping him alive because he's so pure/kawaii/faithful.

Kaldor wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished.

Huh?

All he's done is banish Mortarion and that Greater Daemon of Tzeench. How do you think he's surviving in the Warp? It is, after all, physically impossible. His very atoms should be torn one from the other. So how is he there? The only possible explanation is that the lords of the Warp, the Chaos Gods, want him to be there.

How long can one man continue to repeat the same tasks over and over before he loses motivation? What happens to him when he does? This is a much more interesting question than "How do we kill him?"

Draigo daemon prince... would please the Chaos gods quite greatly, I imagine.

One of the Chaos gods is trying to engineer his fall, and its probably Tzeentch.

Kaldor.. I think you are giving it far more thought than the original writer gave to it..

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished.

Huh?

All he's done is banish Mortarion and that Greater Daemon of Tzeench. How do you think he's surviving in the Warp? It is, after all, physically impossible. His very atoms should be torn one from the other. So how is he there? The only possible explanation is that the lords of the Warp, the Chaos Gods, want him to be there.

How long can one man continue to repeat the same tasks over and over before he loses motivation? What happens to him when he does? This is a much more interesting question than "How do we kill him?"

Draigo daemon prince... would please the Chaos gods quite greatly, I imagine.

One of the Chaos gods is trying to engineer his fall, and its probably Tzeentch.

Hm,no way he would be a D-prince ,then it would be like 10 times over-over-over the top with OP department...He is more like champ of chaos candidate....

Kaldor wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished.

Huh?

All he's done is banish Mortarion and that Greater Daemon of Tzeench.

He doesn't just banish Mortarion, he rapes Mortarion. Alone and unaided he kills Mortarion's bodyguard, knocks the daemon primarch to the ground, holds him down as if he were his kid brother and carves a name on his heart.

And that's not all he's done either. He walks around the Warp destroying the Realm of Chaos with impunity and the Chaos gods themselves are powerless to stop him. No one else in the setting - not even the Emperor - has ever been able to do this.

Kaldor wrote:How do you think he's surviving in the Warp? It is, after all, physically impossible. His very atoms should be torn one from the other. So how is he there? The only possible explanation is that the lords of the Warp, the Chaos Gods, want him to be there.

It's not physically impossible. Not for Kaldor omfgawesomesauce Draigo. It is stated that he is immune to the will of the Chaos gods. He is able to survive in the Warp because he really is just that powerful.

And by the way, that's cognitive dissonance you're experiencing. The only explanation is that the Chaos gods want him there - surely Draigo can't be that powerful! Well guess what - he is.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished.

Huh?

All he's done is banish Mortarion and that Greater Daemon of Tzeench.

He doesn't just banish Mortarion, he rapes Mortarion. Alone and unaided he kills Mortarion's bodyguard, knocks the daemon primarch to the ground, holds him down as if he were his kid brother and carves a name on his heart.

Source? All it says is that he carves Geronitan's name on the heart, for all we know Mortarion might already be "dead" when that happens.

And, again, he just finished killing off the previous GKSGM.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished.

Huh?

All he's done is banish Mortarion and that Greater Daemon of Tzeench.

He doesn't just banish Mortarion, he rapes Mortarion. Alone and unaided he kills Mortarion's bodyguard, knocks the daemon primarch to the ground, holds him down as if he were his kid brother and carves a name on his heart.

Source? All it says is that he carves Geronitan's name on the heart, for all we know Mortarion might already be "dead" when that happens.

And, again, he just finished killing off the previous GKSGM.

Mortarion can't be dead,he IS f***n "death " and he can only be banished, not slashed to death, IFRC

DarthMarko wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished.

Huh?

All he's done is banish Mortarion and that Greater Daemon of Tzeench.

He doesn't just banish Mortarion, he rapes Mortarion. Alone and unaided he kills Mortarion's bodyguard, knocks the daemon primarch to the ground, holds him down as if he were his kid brother and carves a name on his heart.

Source? All it says is that he carves Geronitan's name on the heart, for all we know Mortarion might already be "dead" when that happens.

And, again, he just finished killing off the previous GKSGM.

Mortarion can't be dead,he IS f***n "death " and he can only be banished, not slashed to death, IFRC

Hence "dead", as in his physical body being dead but him retreating to the Warp to come back later.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished.

Huh?

All he's done is banish Mortarion and that Greater Daemon of Tzeench.

He doesn't just banish Mortarion, he rapes Mortarion. Alone and unaided he kills Mortarion's bodyguard, knocks the daemon primarch to the ground, holds him down as if he were his kid brother and carves a name on his heart.

Source? All it says is that he carves Geronitan's name on the heart, for all we know Mortarion might already be "dead" when that happens.

And, again, he just finished killing off the previous GKSGM.

Mortarion can't be dead,he IS f***n "death " and he can only be banished, not slashed to death, IFRC

Hence "dead", as in his physical body being dead but him retreating to the Warp to come back later.

Hm so you think something like necrofilia?

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The funny thing is that what I just wrote doesn't even come close to the feats that Draigo has accomplished.

Huh?

All he's done is banish Mortarion and that Greater Daemon of Tzeench.

He doesn't just banish Mortarion, he rapes Mortarion. Alone and unaided he kills Mortarion's bodyguard, knocks the daemon primarch to the ground, holds him down as if he were his kid brother and carves a name on his heart.

And that's not all he's done either. He walks around the Warp destroying the Realm of Chaos with impunity and the Chaos gods themselves are powerless to stop him. No one else in the setting - not even the Emperor - has ever been able to do this.

Kaldor wrote:How do you think he's surviving in the Warp? It is, after all, physically impossible. His very atoms should be torn one from the other. So how is he there? The only possible explanation is that the lords of the Warp, the Chaos Gods, want him to be there.

It's not physically impossible. Not for Kaldor omfgawesomesauce Draigo. It is stated that he is immune to the will of the Chaos gods. He is able to survive in the Warp because he really is just that powerful.

And by the way, that's cognitive dissonance you're experiencing. The only explanation is that the Chaos gods want him there - surely Draigo can't be that powerful! Well guess what - he is.

I don't think you're supposed to take everything about the potential power of the fiction characters so seriously... I mean really, Ward is obviously just trying to pump up Draigo to unimaginable levels with those passages; he isn't really THAT powerful. These are stories told by the Grey Knights; he could be doing nothing in the Chaos Wastes, and just thinks he is!

However, I am still going to say the Chaos gods allow him to be there and are slowly trying to break him with the intent of turning him into a champion of Chaos or a Daemon Prince.

Pacific wrote:Kaldor.. I think you are giving it far more thought than the original writer gave to it..

lol, probably!

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:He doesn't just banish Mortarion, he rapes Mortarion. Alone and unaided he kills Mortarion's bodyguard, knocks the daemon primarch to the ground, holds him down as if he were his kid brother and carves a name on his heart.

Kinda like how Brother Captain Taremar, alone and unaided, defeated Angron in single combat?

Except Draigo doesn't die in the process, and defiles Mortarion's remains after the fight by carving Geronitan's name on his heart.

And that's not all he's done either. He walks around the Warp destroying the Realm of Chaos with impunity and the Chaos gods themselves are powerless to stop him. No one else in the setting - not even the Emperor - has ever been able to do this.

The warp has no gravity, no atmosphere, no physics, no consistency. Draigo could not survive there unless it was formed (by someone who could form it) into an environment that he could survive in.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

He doesn't just banish Mortarion, he rapes Mortarion. Alone and unaided he kills Mortarion's bodyguard, knocks the daemon primarch to the ground, holds him down as if he were his kid brother and carves a name on his heart.

And that's not all he's done either. He walks around the Warp destroying the Realm of Chaos with impunity and the Chaos gods themselves are powerless to stop him. No one else in the setting - not even the Emperor - has ever been able to do this.

True Dat. Ward made Draigo effectively more powerful than the Emperor. That's the problem. No one should be more powerful than the Big E. Except maybe the Chaos gods, but that is another thread.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

He doesn't just banish Mortarion, he rapes Mortarion. Alone and unaided he kills Mortarion's bodyguard, knocks the daemon primarch to the ground, holds him down as if he were his kid brother and carves a name on his heart.

And that's not all he's done either. He walks around the Warp destroying the Realm of Chaos with impunity and the Chaos gods themselves are powerless to stop him. No one else in the setting - not even the Emperor - has ever been able to do this.

True Dat. Ward made Draigo effectively more powerful than the Emperor. That's the problem. No one should be more powerful than the Big E. Except maybe the Chaos gods, but that is another thread.

Hyperbole much? How is he more powerful than the Emperor? The Emperor made the entire World Eaters Legion kneel before him with a snap of his fingers, he completely erased Horus while the latter was under the effects of some serious Chaos Kool-aid.

Besides, why would the Emperor bother destroying stuff that will just fix itself again? I don't know how many times it's been said, but nothing Draigo does in the Warp matters at all.

Kaldor wrote:
The warp has no gravity, no atmosphere, no physics, no consistency. Draigo could not survive there unless it was formed (by someone who could form it) into an environment that he could survive in.

Draigo's a psyker, couldn't he form a small bubble of real-space around himself?

DarthMarko wrote:Mortarion can't be dead,he IS f***n "death " and he can only be banished, not slashed to death, IFRC

I don't understand your fascination with Mortarion being death. There's no such thing in 40K. He's a Primarch corrupted by Nurgle and ascended into being a Daemon Prince. That may give him certain abilities as well as immortality, but it also gives him certain weaknesses.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Besides, why would the Emperor bother destroying stuff that will just fix itself again? I don't know how many times it's been said, but nothing Draigo does in the Warp matters at all.

I've heard that in Collected Visions ( I think) that the Emperors Psychic might was in fact devastating the Realms of Chaos, although I haven't read the passage myself.

Draigo's a psyker, couldn't he form a small bubble of real-space around himself?

Doing so permanently would be a drain, and is a bit hard to swallow if he has to sleep or gets tired. That said, if the real world laws don't apply, would he need to sleep or anything, or is his body just constantly maintained (if it is indeed his material body)?