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 AlexHolker wrote:
Looks like the number of women in the Warpath universe has increased to a grand total of one. That's progress, I suppose.

...it's actually a robot/cyborg.
OTOH, you realise that many sports are segregated by gender, right? (although it's a bit silly on the face of inter-species competition!)
And we don't know if, say, veermyn or marauders are actually distinctly different per gender to our eyes...

 AlexHolker wrote:
Looks like the number of women in the Warpath universe has increased to a grand total of one. That's progress, I suppose.

Robots with bewbs count as females?

Considering Warpath fluff, if the enforcers can only be male, and this sports team are based off those types of troops, any female team would need to have a different tech or something.

I would still love to see a Female Marauder from a non-spore-based space ork universe. Someone gotta be birthing these green killing machines and maybe they play sports too!

I will probably wait on this one, as I want to see what other teams they come up with. I do hope some funny cheerleader models come from it.

One of the teams from the stretch goals will be all-female.

The basic humans in the game are not Enforcers, just regular "genetically pure" humans. There is one Enforcer MVP though.

I'm waiting for the Marauder cheerleader more than anything.

I'm not overly excited by the design of the board and sort of wished the models would have more details. The model design is quite stale if you think there are multiple races and lots could have been done (my humble opinion).
I would love to see them going a but more crazy with the model design and the design of the board.
All female team will be great tho

I'm looking forward on the development of all of it really I am quite the fan of space/mini's/fantasy football. It's always fun to play, so I suppose they can't do any wrong there (unless the rulebook turns out to be... well you know).

Yeah... can't wait

 Kalamadea wrote:
Yeah, 3 pages and half of the posts are "oh noes, the OP is different! This has totally unfair-sed my brain and opinion that I spent time and mind power typing up so people would knows it!" Changing threads is mildly annoying and it cuts the flow of discussion, but it's hardly worth getting worked up over. OP only matters for news and updates, it's the last page that really matters anyways.

At the risk of staying on topic, has there been any insight on what the next 4 factions might be? I know there were supposed to be 8 races for Warpath and a few of them even had names iirc, bnut not much more than that. I imagine the Dreadball races will match those factions, so it might be some nice cross-info on what's down the pipe for both games.

I imagine that at least one will be vaguely based on the "browncoat humans" who are rebelling against the corporation. - if not openly, a non-coporation human faction that are a bit more low-tech with their armour.


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Bolognesus wrote:

 MunkeyKungFu wrote:
And why the hell is this now telling me i'm a yank???

...breathe deeply, and embrace your inner cheeseburger!

Yes. Look around your house. Has the cheese all turned orange?

Yay everything is set up and ready to go!

Anyways yea I suspected there were going to be more females with one of the star players being female

But this begs the question, are there going to be any females in warpath? Even if it was just resin females heads on corporation heads it would be a decent change of pace

 kenshin620 wrote:
Yay everything is set up and ready to go!

Anyways yea I suspected there were going to be more females with one of the star players being female

But this begs the question, are there going to be any females in warpath? Even if it was just resin females heads on corporation heads it would be a decent change of pace

There are female corp soldiers in the fluff, other then Enforcers, so I'd imagine we'll see them down the line.

judgedoug wrote:

I know. Its ridiculous. Seriously.
Games Workshop is so blatantly ripping off Dungeons & Dragons, Robert E Howard's Conan... and we all know that Orcs are TM and (c) J.R.R.Tolkien. can't wait for Michael Moorcock to sue them for stealing literally everything about Chaos and Dark Elves from him.
Been sick of the "ripping off GW" claims that every company who makes fantasy anything has endured for the past 20 years when almost nothing GW themselves have done had any spark of originality.

I also specifically love the anti-Mantic hate because these are all GW employees. Funny how everyone would be praising this if it had a different company logo on it even with the same game designers.

Laserburn was written buy Bryan Ansell, who set up citadel and bought GW off of Jackson and Livingstone; Who then went on to employ some Priestley feller to write 40k.

Spot on for Chainmail, though that was more of a derivation of Historic games as was then.

Dreadball eh, who would have thought we would get here.

Now back to topic, I'm still not sure of the board; looks a little undefined to me. Just a bunch of hexes and blocks of hexes on a starfield. Can anyone shed some light on that.

All the talk of Speedball had me thinking of metal courts with ramps and a thing for shooting a metal ball out of?

Right you are. But the point is that neither Warhammer/40k were wholly new creations. Both are iterations on concepts brought about in other games. Hell, many editions of those two are better described as "inspired by" previous editions, given some of the radical changes in their mechanics. The main difference is that KoW/WP have a different publisher - even though - like Laserburn to 40k, some of the same people involved in the preceding games are involved in the new ones.

Was hoping someone would catch the Ansell angle. An idea in one company spun off into a newer company's newer ruleset. Like GW employees spinning off into a newer company with a newer ruleset. Even using derivative Laserburn miniatures to make the original beakie marines.

But sure, I guess I am a Mantic fan. I haven't had as much fun playing a fantasy wargame since Warhammer 6th. And I am excited for Dreadball, as I love Blood Bowl and have played it for...15 years?...and will continue to play it. But there's been no active support for it in 7 or 8 years.


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Sorry for the awkward formatting, using my smartphone to post.


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Actually, Panic's post reminded me of some links I saw on TMP to scanned articles detailing fantasy miniatures rules from the early/mid 70's that were not Chainmail. I might try to find the link again for anyone interested but don't wanna keep derailing the thread.


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And as an addendum, I totally agree with much of Mantic's original business ideas - which were (obviously) to provide a much cheaper alternative to GW's models. Nothing wrong with healthy competition, and despite being a loyal GW fan since Space Hulk first edition, these last few years (imo) have been the worst, and they have lost me as a customer. But then I saw Mantic - I basically ignored the company until a few months ago, but the new Kings of War ruleset is what made me an instant fan.

Panic wrote:I don't think dakka should start giving threads to people who want OP status because they believe that they are more worthy?
Thin end of the wedge and all... And if this is dakkas new direction I vote that kroothawk be given every thread.

1.) Seems to be unique to Mantic threads that they are closed and restarted, when some Mantic fans feel uncomfortable with negative opinions. Not the first time and certainly not the last time.
2.) Even if I had the time (which I don't ), I wouldn't start and maintain Mantic threads, because Mantic is one of the very few Miniature companies, that I don't support because of the way they do business which in my personal opinion is dishonourable. Doesn't help that they have yet to release a product that I am interested in.

Yes, your opinions on Mantic have been well publicised, many times Kroothawk

Don't see what the problem is of giving the thread to ScarletSquig? He's been massively active, both here and on other forums, in trying to bring news about Mantic stuff as quickly as possible. What better choice to have him as the first person updating the thread, especially as it seems that he has a contact from the company, and can therefore inform people interested of new developments?

The only criticism I can think of him is that his name abbreviates poorly..

Saying stuff about him taking money from the company? Please, go and watch some more X-files, it's beyond pathetic.

And I don't see any criticism here being stomped on? Why would anyone, least of all the mods, have an interest in doing such a thing?

 Kroothawk wrote:

2.) Even if I had the time (which I don't ), I wouldn't start and maintain Mantic threads, because Mantic is one of the very few Miniature companies, that I don't support because of the way they do business which in my personal opinion is dishonourable. Doesn't help that they have yet to release a product that I am interested in.

Dishonourable? At risk of further derailing the thread, how so? Unless it's simply "copying GW's IP", in which case don't bother. I'll just spend the time painting up my original Hormagaunts, Kruellagh DeVile, Sly Marbo and Shaeffer's Last Chancers and play a game of Space Hulk while watching the Battle of Pelennor FIelds segment of my Lord of the Rings Blu-Ray. Then I'll re-read some Moorcock, Herbert or Heinlein.


A more legitimate criticism of Dread Ball, in my opinion is that they're now "Relic Knights"-ing with the referee figure. Stuff you could consider "fake" stretch goals. Much like "Casino Quality Cards". AKA things you know they were going to do anyway presented as "stretch goals".

It's dishonourable to make a competing product and beat GW on price? And to be so communicative with your customer base that the CEO makes youtube videos and blog posts? How about listening to customer feedback about rules during the KoW/Warpath public betas and the communities suggestions actually getting implemented in the rules.

So dishonourable! LOL

I don't see how some of these are "fake" stretch goals. Check out some of Mantics other board games, them Frontline Gamer has some good (if slightly biased) review. The games look pretty good (haven't played them myself) but the components are crap. Cheap card tiles, boxes that are the thin cereal box type of cardboard and not the thicker cardboard that you'd expect from a board game meant to sit on your shelf for years. Clearly these "fake" stretch goals would NOT be included in the base game if Mantic released it through traditional means.

I really like the idea of using KS to make the actual release better, I can't believe relic knights is catching so much crap for the cards and plastic tokens as stretch goals. That's the PERFECT thing to use KS for, I think, and the alternate sculpts and plastic tokens for Sedition Wars were my personal favorite stretches since they are direct improvements on the final product that everyone gets, not just the KS backers. Get a lot of moeny from KS, improve the compnents, add lots of alternate sculpts. Win.

More stuff is awesome of course, but if KS is (supposedly) about getting a product to market, and it's that final product that I'm more concerned with. The free stuff you get for backing early are just bonuses, this thing has to survive and thrive in a retail environment for years to come, and the better they make it now, the more likely that is to happen.

After seeing the Dwarf Kings Hold contents in person, I ended up buying the rules in PDF and using my D&D dungeon tiles and reaper miniatures I had from running RPGs.

Dreadball needs to be better than those and I think Mantic knows it.

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's dishonourable to make a competing product and beat GW on price? And to be so communicative with your customer base that the CEO makes youtube videos and blog posts? How about listening to customer feedback about rules during the KoW/Warpath public betas and the communities suggestions actually getting implemented in the rules.

So dishonourable! LOL

Personally I think yearly price increases for no other reason than "Let's see how much we can rip the nerds off for!" qualifies as pretty "dishonorable" behavior. And while we're at it, how about ignoring the current exchange rate and insisting on charging countries like Australia or Canada more for their product based on what the conversion rate was years prior, locking in that particular rate for no other reason than "It's higher so we can make more money!"? Or how about making it almost (if not outright) impossible for people in certain countries to buy your product because you want all the money and have effectively "banned" online sales to those areas of the world?

Not to sound like a Mantic fanboy or anything...I couldn't care less about Mantic, or whether or not you're a fan yourself. But seriously, "dishonorable"? I had to "lol" myself when I read that.

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's dishonourable to make a competing product and beat GW on price?

Hey, that business model worked for Samsung! Wait a minute... what? Lost a suit and forced to pay 1 billion dollars? oooooh... Maybe making original products might be worth considering as taking your competator's products, duplicating them and charging less doesn't always work out well.

yeah,

 Kalamadea wrote:
I don't see how some of these are "fake" stretch goals.

I'm not sure if your missing the point people have made...
The contents are not yet worth $80.. but that's because we have yet to 'unlock' the full game.... once we all put in our cash we will start to see 'kickstarter levels of value!'

Panic...

 Kalamadea wrote:
I don't see how some of these are "fake" stretch goals. Check out some of Mantics other board games, them Frontline Gamer has some good (if slightly biased) review. The games look pretty good (haven't played them myself) but the components are crap. Cheap card tiles, boxes that are the thin cereal box type of cardboard and not the thicker cardboard that you'd expect from a board game meant to sit on your shelf for years. Clearly these "fake" stretch goals would NOT be included in the base game if Mantic released it through traditional means.

I already own their other board games. All of the DKH series, and PP. (huh-huh-huh. I said pee-pee. huh-huh-huh) So I don't need reviews of them. In case you haven't been reading much of this thread, the boxed game already has a premium price point that really needs to have a lot more included in it to justify it's cost, compared to any of their competition. Details in the previous post I just linked, but for a visual - these are the same RRP price point:









Now these may well be Mantic's nicest figures yet. They're certainly up there. But I don't think anyone could justifiably call either the Descent or Dust figures poor, either. I've also avoided making comparisons to Blood Bowl or GW product or prices here, because GW doesn't sell boardgames. (though you can still find Dread Fleet in my city - heavily discounted). Unlike KoW/WP, GW isn't the competition here.

...

It's not like they're now going to design and tool the referee. It's already sculpted and painted and on display all over the place. The additional costs would amount to casting them and putting it in the box. Which should be paid for with the not-insignificant boxed set price. It's not like they need to be designed or sculpted, and since they were clearly expecting it to make it to this goal within the first few days at the most, it was already a given. Let's not be so naive here.



To further elaborate, the "goal" here is $20k. Now I'm very happy to believe that Mantic were completely blown away with surprise at the first KS, but this one is as well-planned as the other ones we're now seeing. It's really a glorified pre-order scheme designed to have a Day 1 community for the game when it's released. This isn't about "making it happen" - it's already going to happen in December. But unlike other posters here, I'm actually completely okay with that. But let's not be naive. At minimum, getting up to at least $100k, any stretch goals are a complete given and really, a fiction as far as being "stretch" is concerned. They're all things that were going to happen whether this game was released direct to retail or with a "Kickstarter marketing buzz" (which is what this campaign actually is). The extra teams we're going to "unlock" are already included in the pledge levels, as are (at least) the first two Star Players. Panic had the pre-order info for retailers posted in the previous version of this thread.

Striker! – DreadBall – The Futuristic Sports Game, the Midgard Delvers and Skittersneak Stealers teams, a digital “Creating DreadBall” book, Lucky Logan and Slippery Joe MVPs, a digital copy of the DreadBall rules, a signed lithoprint of the cover art AND be listed as a supporter in our Fanzone on the DreadBall Website.

If only we pledge, the figures shown above might be designed, sculpted and cast!

NYA MGE DBF11-1 DB Midgard Delvers $24.99
NYA MGE DBF70-1 DB Forge Father MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBH11-1 DB Trontek 29er's $24.99
NYA MGE DBH70-1 DB Human MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBM01-1 Dreadball Futuristic Sports Game $79.99
NYA MGE DBO11-1 DB Greenmoon Smackers $24.99
NYA MGE DBO70-1 DB Goblin MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBV11-1 DB Skittersneak Stealers $24.99
NYA MGE DBV70-1 DB Veer-myn MVP

Oh, I get that it probably isn't worth $80 as-is, although based on what they've already released I actually have absolutely no doubt that that $80 would have gotten you the game they showed you initially. You are not "unlocking the full game", you would have gotten that game with the cheap components. Mantic would have made it that way because they've already shown that they're fine with releasing games with not-so-great components but charging as much as other (better quality) games of the same theme. Mantic is going to charge you $80 for this game and people seem to be perfectly fine with that since it funded in 2 hours, but I for one am glad to see that this KS will improve the game that hits the shelves and might actually make it worth that amount. Unlike their other board games that I really like but are just too expensive for what you get.

But that's a seperate issue as I'm not even actually talking about Mantic or Dreadball specifically. I'm talking about the general trend of whining about stretch goals that improve the base game components instead of just giving people more free stuff because they feel those things should have been included form the start. More free stuff is always cool, and it's what got some of those KS projects to such crazy high amounts amounts, but now people expect to get triple as much stuff or isn't worth their time The point of KS is to get projects made (or made better) that would not have been made ( would not have been made as good) and not just to get as much free crap as possible. That's supposed to be an added bonus and thank-you, not the point. With Zombiecide and Sedition Wars, people now expect free stuff for every goal and are insulted when they don't get that for every single stretch. It's become an entitlement thing. Games are expensive, and traditionally you have to front all the money for the entire print run long before it ever hits shelves and you see a dime of return on your investment.

The games have to be able to stand on their own for years to come, and the better the value of the box sitting on a store shelf once it releases normally, the better it's going to sell. Compared to being sold in stores over the coming years, KS is an incredibly limited market . KS is not a one-and-done thing, it's the preparation for bringing the actual product to market and I see a whole lot of people missing that point when they complain about how X stretch goal isn't more free stuff or Y stretch should have been included from the beginning.

Whether you think $80 is worth it for what you get or whether you like an established company like Mantic doing KS projects to begin with are whole seperate issues that I'm specifically not addressing, it's been debated to death already.

 Kalamadea wrote:
Oh, I get that it probably isn't worth $80 as-is, although based on what they've already released I actually have no doubt that that $80 would have gotten you the game they showed you. You are not unlocking anything, Mantic would have made it that way because they've already shown that they're fine with releasing games with not-so-great components but charging as much as other (better quality) games of the same genre.

But that's a seperate issue as I'm not even actually talking about Mantic or Dreadball specifically. I'm talking about the general trend of whining about stretch goals that improve the base game components instead of just giving people more free stuff. More free stuff is always cool, and it's what got some of those KS projects to such crazy high amounts amounts, but now people expect to get triple as much stuff or isn't worth their time The point of KS is to get projects made (or made better) that would not have been made ( would not have been made as good) and not just to get as much free crap as possible. That's supposed to be an added bonus and thank-you, not the point. With Zombiecide and Sedition Wars, people now expect free stuff for every goal and are insulted when they don't get that for every single stretch. It's become an entitlement thing.

The games have to be able to stand on their own, and the better the value of the box sitting on a store shelf once it releases normally, the better it's going to sell. People seem to forget that these are products that will be around and need to sell for years, KS is an incredibly limit market by comparison. KS is not a one-and-done thing, it's the preparation and I see a whole lot of people missing that point when they complain about how X stretch goal isn't more free stuff or Y stretch should have been included from the beginning.

Whether you think $80 is worth it for what you get or whether you like an established company like Mantic doing KS projects to begin with are whole seperate issues that I'm specifically not addressing, it's been debated to death already.

Well as many pointed out in the RK KS, once a game is funded there might not be a point to giving money if the stretch goals are marginal/wotnot and that you mind as well wait for the base game to be out in a normal store (especially for shipping purposes!)

 Kalamadea wrote:

I'm talking about the general trend of whining about stretch goals that improve the base game components instead of just giving people more free stuff.
...
I see a whole lot of people missing that point when they complain about how X stretch goal isn't more free stuff or Y stretch should have been included from the beginning.

While you were typing the above, I was editing my post to address much of what you discuss here. All of the currently listed stretch goals are a fiction. They're all things that are a given to happen regardless of this KS's existence. Details above in my post.

Thats the thing though, they were going to make stuff like the robot ref, but it would have been in metal and a seperate figure. And Mantic STILL would have charged $80 for the game. Even if I don't pledge to this KS (and I don't plan to) , if I do pick up the game at some point after release then that's an improved game I get, and might be a tipping point or not. If I pick up Dwarf Kings Hold in the FLGS and look at it's components for $60, I'm going to think about it but put it back (because I have, many times). But if it had a real box, with thick card tiles, I'd have paid that $60 for it months ago, and probably all the expansions too.

Same for relic knights, they would have made the higher quality cards as an addon pack that would have cost you $10. They would have made the plastic counters as an addon pack that would have cost you another $10. Sedition wars, same thing, you would have had cardboard counters if it released through traditional routes and you saw it on the shelf. Still worth the price? Probably, but for people on the fence it tips it over into "definite buy" territory. And I see a whole lot of people that are up in arms because they're improving the game with stuff that "should have been included anyways" or "would have been included anyways" that actually probably wouldn't have been included anyways. I like free stuff as much as the next guy (assuming he likes free stuff a lot), but again, the free stuff is secondary to making the thing you get, the thing everyone gets, even better.

I think improving the quality of the product through stretch goals is a great use of Kickstarter.

New stretch goals are up.

2 alternate sculpts (one for each team) will be produced and 2 copies of each will be included in all copies of the game. Again, this applies to all copies.

So, 21 minis in the box so far.

From what I've heard about the ref, she was going to be a metal blister sold seperately because Mantic couldn't afford to get her tooled and put into the box. Same goes for these alternate sculpts (which definitely wouldn't have made it in, because they haven't been sculpted yet). Now they can.

I'm pretty cool with the KS goals being used to directly improve/add stuff to the basic set. It means that even people who don't back the kickstarter, but buy the game later can still benefit to some extent.


I think the plastic tooling is the thing here, Pacific.. the more copies they know they are going to sell, the easier it becomes to invest more in plastic tooling (due to the high mould costs), which in turn means that more stuff can be put into the basic box, as the relative cost per model on mantic's manufacturing end drops dramatically in direct proportion to the number of copies they sell. E.g. Sell 1000 copies, and your production costs might be $0.50/mini.. sell 3000 copies and that might drop down to $0.30/mini due to economies of scale.

Restic is an economic "mid point" between metal models and injection plastic. Tooling costs are in-between the two. Casting costs are in-between the two... so getting high sales really will allow them to put more minis in the box for *everyone*.

If this were a Warpath Kickstarter, and was this time last year, we'd be getting "give the forgefathers sci-fi legs stretch goals" and while a lot of people would be happy about that, there would be others thinking "yeah, no way were they ever going to give them fantasy legs in the first place, this is BS"... when of course the truth is that Mantic often makes decisions that murder the quality of their own product for bean-counter reasons.

With kickstarter around, they can ditch that type of thinking and actually produce a quality product. I think they're thinking a little bit beyond the kickstarter with this one, it is a new gaming system for them that they intend to support with new releases on a regular basis and run tournaments for.

 scarletsquig wrote:
New stretch goals are up.
2 alternate sculpts (one for each team) will be produced and 2 copies of each will be included in all copies of the game. Again, this applies to all copies.
So, 21 minis in the box so far.

From what I've heard about the ref, she was going to be a metal blister sold seperately because Mantic couldn't afford to get her tooled and put into the box. Same goes for these alternate sculpts (which definitely wouldn't have made it in, because they haven't been sculpted yet). Now they can.

I'm pretty cool with the KS goals being used to directly improve/add stuff to the basic set. It means that even people who don't back the kickstarter, but buy the game later can still benefit to some extent.

Fair enough. I'm going to simply assume that companies don't always tell all of the truth, even to their most loyal fans - instead choosing what information to share, leak, mislead on or withhold completely. I almost added into my large post above that I assumed that adding the alternative sculpts would bump the game to 10 or 11 players per team, (just like Bloodbowl!) but I felt it was already a given, and said by others.

IMO at least, this is all still going "according to plan" and we haven't hit any actual stretch goals yet. I wouldn't have been a first-hour pledger if I thought what's shown so far would be all that we get.


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 Kalamadea wrote:
Thats the thing though, they were going to make stuff like the robot ref, but it would have been in metal and a seperate figure.
...
And I see a whole lot of people that are up in arms because they're improving the game with stuff that "should have been included anyways" or "would have been included anyways" that actually probably wouldn't have been included anyways. I like free stuff as much as the next guy (assuming he likes free stuff a lot), but again, the free stuff is secondary to making the thing you get, the thing everyone gets, even better.

I'm not "up in arms" by any means. I just think that them only needing 20k as an initial goal is clearly an arbitrary, easily reached amount. ($20k for what exactly? What does the base level let them do? Release the game?)

I'm also not naive. If the ref was really going to be a separate figure, it'd be on the release schedule price list and not their first stretch goal. Be dispassionate about the whole thing for a moment. Step back mentally. Do you think they were actually in any doubt that they'd hit $40k? ergo - "fake" stretch goal.

At the very least, until the Skaven and Dwarf teams are both unlocked, we're not seeing any actual stretch goals. For KS backers or for the box set inclusion. How can I say this with any kind of certainty? Because the Skaven and Dwarves are already sculpted and also included in the "Striker" level.

Judging by my copy of the rules and what I've heard abut the ref being metal leading up to this, I think (in a world without kickstarter) the ref would have been included anyway since there are 3 pages of rules for her, but she would have been single-piece metal... and that this in turn would have meant that those 4 extra players that we're getting in the $60k stretch would not have been able to be added.

So, in short.. plastic ref = money saved = savings invested into 4 more minis in the box.

There's something a little more complex going on here.. the rules refer to having 8 models in each team, 8 models for each team in the box, the rosters list 8 models as what you get in your starting team, and the main rules state that you can only use 8 players at a time (6 on the pitch, 2 subs).

So, references to "8 models" everywhere strongly hints that 10 per team (8 + 2 bonus) definitely wasn't the plan all along. From what I can tell, the $60k goal is pretty clearly a legit universal upgrade to the game, even if the ref is on shakier ground.

Free trophy mini is pretty sweet as a $10k stretch, too.