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Yup, the WWP is waiting for a proper build around it, but clearly it's not going to be D-scythes.

It needs to go with the one unit your opponent would never want to see reach its destination.

One unit that will totally utterly feth him up with good efficiency if in the right position.

Probably one of the main reasons the BeastPack was limited in size

Hollismason wrote:
It's also worth mentioning that Venoms can be purchased as Fast Attack and have the deep strike ability. So you can purchase venom upgrade it to two Splinter Cannons, and have 12 4+ poison shots and it can carry 5 Firedragons w/ a Exarch w/ Fast shot.

All of that comes in at 200 points.

Fire Dragons have Battle Focus.

So you don't even really need to be super near the target with the venom as they could possibly disembark, run then shoot at the target.

This could be an option.
If you look at a Raider, a Seer Council or Wraithguard would be an option too.

I'm more interested in a blob of sslyth.

morgoth wrote:
Yup, the WWP is waiting for a proper build around it, but clearly it's not going to be D-scythes.

It needs to go with the one unit your opponent would never want to see reach its destination.

One unit that will totally utterly feth him up with good efficiency if in the right position.

Probably one of the main reasons the BeastPack was limited in size

Exactly. Scytheguard may not be the it, but a star of 10 Wraithblades with Axe/Shield might be. Add a few Spiritseers to try getting Protect and/or Invisibility and simply go to work.

That's just off the top of my head, there'll probably be a lot more options with the new DE.

Apparently it does not in fact grant actually Deepstrike, but instead augments a vehicle that is deep striking.
So no deep striking no scatter Wraithguard.However it is still possible to deep strike them, disembark or get lucky on a roll.No word yet on the scatter though, the Raider model is kind of big so that'll be a issue.You can most certainly though stick him with a unit of Fire Dragons and Deep Strike without Scatter.


You can in fact get Venoms as Fast Attack so just take them with splinter cannons and fire off 12 Poisoned 4+ rolls and 5 Meltaguns for 180 points.

What about its interaction with GoI ?

morgoth wrote:
What about its interaction with GoI ?

None if this is a vehicle upgrade. Embarked models can't cast GoI.

Mavnas wrote:

morgoth wrote:
What about its interaction with GoI ?

None if this is a vehicle upgrade. Embarked models can't cast GoI.

It is either a vehicle upgrade or is rumored to require the IC to be in a vehicle

Well, either way, no GOI shenanigans then.

Mavnas wrote:
Well, either way, no GOI shenanigans then.

well there was a rumor that it just granted no scatter DS, which would have more shenanigans, including of the GOI variety

Correct me if I'm wrong here "tyranid player not really used to transport rules" with a dedicated transport, only the unit who purchased it can start in it correct? So if raiders are dedicated how can a unit of wraithguard start in one?

in the new codexes for 7th one+ of the normal dedicated transport options are also listed as fast attack options as non-dedicated transports.

so if you can ally with that faction you can get access to their transports.

Of course this means you take an Allied detachment with most like 1 hq, 1 troops, and get 1 transport.

or a cad with 1 hq 1 troop and can get 3 transports.

so not exactly cheap.

TBH it does not help wraithguard, but it does help assault units in the eldar codex that do not have access to open topped transports they can assault out of after disembarking.

Actually you can just take the Dark Eldar Formation and take up to 6 Fast Attack. That's pretty much, I get to take a transport for whatever doesn't have one and needs one with the addition that the Archon and Court is kind of bad ass.

That's the problem I'm having. Unless that formation states you can't have 6 Raiders which I highly doubt.

So it's more like

Archon w/ Court w/ Whatever crazy gak they get in a Deep Striking non scattering Raider (Medusa's Eye ST4 AP2 template, or whatever )

or

Archon w/ WWP
w/ Whatever
Raider that deep strikes and doesn't scatter

2 Troops

Fast Attack
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
Venom
or
Raider
Raider
Raider
Raider
Raider
Raider

blaktoof wrote:
TBH it does not help wraithguard, but it does help assault units in the eldar codex that do not have access to open topped transports they can assault out of after disembarking.

All of which suck donkey balls, so yeah. big deal.

I'm not convinced that turn 2+ deepstriking raiders are particularly scary compared to drop pod lists.

I might be more worried about 15+ venom lists backed up by blasters, depending on my own army composition.

I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.
They are cheap enough now where I'd consider sticking them in bunkers to make some anchors for me on the table.

The reavers got a huge buff. HoW can hit vehicles, the old ability could not. If the number of upgrades remain the same, a big charging reaver unit does 3D6 S6 hits, supposedly with rending. That's going to put a good sized dent into most invisible units.

Best of all, those beautiful mandrake models aren't totally worthless anymore.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.

They cost more than firedragons for less firepower, but with jump packs.
Heat lances are like -2strength meltaguns, which means they must be in melta range to do anything
Blasters are also kinda weap. 5+ to pen, and once you pen need a 6 to destroy
Haywireblasters are good, but useless once you are out of armor
Not bad at all, but not amazing.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

The reavers got a huge buff. HoW can hit vehicles, the old ability could not. If the number of upgrades remain the same, a big charging reaver unit does 3D6 S6 hits, supposedly with rending. That's going to put a good sized dent into most invisible units.

Certainly changes them though as they lose their fly by attack. They now are the 40k version of a chariot. Very fragile, charge in and if they make it through overwatch will do massive damage, but then will take massive damage in return.

morgoth wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
TBH it does not help wraithguard, but it does help assault units in the eldar codex that do not have access to open topped transports they can assault out of after disembarking.

All of which suck donkey balls, so yeah. big deal.

This so many times

 Exergy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.

They cost more than firedragons for less firepower, but with jump packs.
Heat lances are like -2strength meltaguns, which means they must be in melta range to do anything
Blasters are also kinda weap. 5+ to pen, and once you pen need a 6 to destroy
Haywireblasters are good, but useless once you are out of armor
Not bad at all, but not amazing.

Heat Lances are -2 strength meltaguns with the Lance rule. AV14 becomes 12, and you need a 7 to pen, just like a normal meltagun. It's more than good enough.
Fire Dragons are 110 points for 5. Scourge are 80 points, + guns. Rumors have the costs for guns dropping. The mobility means that anyone who survives gets a 2nd shot. Same isn't true for fire dragons.

I won't be throwing firedragons into venoms. You just don't want the venom point blank like you need the melta guns. I can't actually think of anything I'd want in the venom now. I might be running my empty as gun boats, and then picking up units when needed. Wish I had better access to template weapons in 5 man squads. Too bad the DE template just dropped to S3.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.

They cost more than firedragons for less firepower, but with jump packs.
Heat lances are like -2strength meltaguns, which means they must be in melta range to do anything
Blasters are also kinda weap. 5+ to pen, and once you pen need a 6 to destroy
Haywireblasters are good, but useless once you are out of armor
Not bad at all, but not amazing.

Heat Lances are -2 strength meltaguns with the Lance rule. AV14 becomes 12, and you need a 7 to pen, just like a normal meltagun. It's more than good enough.
Fire Dragons are 110 points for 5. Scourge are 80 points, + guns. Rumors have the costs for guns dropping. The mobility means that anyone who survives gets a 2nd shot. Same isn't true for fire dragons.
I won't be throwing firedragons into venoms. You just don't want the venom point blank like you need the melta guns. I can't actually think of anything I'd want in the venom now. I might be running my empty as gun boats, and then picking up units when needed. Wish I had better access to template weapons in 5 man squads. Too bad the DE template just dropped to S3.
-Matt

Against AV14 the heatlance is just as good as a melta, this is true. But against AV10-12 it is -2 strength. Melta has a good chance of penning AV10-12 from outside melta range. A heat lance has a small prayer by comparison.
A scourge with a haywire blaster is looking like 31 points. Most of the weapons + scourge are 26-31 points which is considerably more than the 22 a firedragon costs. 1/5 of the scourges cost less but also are kinda mute, bullet catchers

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'm really liking scourge. Rumor has them with 4 heavies at any squad size and dropping to 16 points each.
@120 point to 140 points (depending on guns), and in fast attack for that 6 per detachment option, you can pack in a stupid number of heat lances, blasters and haywire blasters.
They are throwing out similar firepower to fire dragons, for about the same cost; but have jump packs.

They cost more than firedragons for less firepower, but with jump packs.
Heat lances are like -2strength meltaguns, which means they must be in melta range to do anything
Blasters are also kinda weap. 5+ to pen, and once you pen need a 6 to destroy
Haywireblasters are good, but useless once you are out of armor
Not bad at all, but not amazing.

Heat Lances are -2 strength meltaguns with the Lance rule. AV14 becomes 12, and you need a 7 to pen, just like a normal meltagun. It's more than good enough.
Fire Dragons are 110 points for 5. Scourge are 80 points, + guns. Rumors have the costs for guns dropping. The mobility means that anyone who survives gets a 2nd shot. Same isn't true for fire dragons.

I won't be throwing firedragons into venoms. You just don't want the venom point blank like you need the melta guns. I can't actually think of anything I'd want in the venom now. I might be running my empty as gun boats, and then picking up units when needed. Wish I had better access to template weapons in 5 man squads. Too bad the DE template just dropped to S3.

-Matt

The Scourges are not only cheap but they will also be able to deep strike! Now you can drop those heat lances right down on top of whatever needs to die.

Heat lances go further than meltaguns.

It looks like this codex was built with Battlebrothers in mind seriously there's some crazy gak in this codex that's all LD based and meant to just meld perfectly with Telepathy driven Eldar Armies.

What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

Not sure whether this is particularly points efficient, but putting a WS behind the opponent is nice for rear armor instead of side...

jcress410 wrote:
What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

Not sure whether this is particularly points efficient, but putting a WS behind the opponent is nice for rear armor instead of side...

It's the same discussion as before, except now you're also wasting a Wave Serpent.

Not points efficient at all.

If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

I think it's pretty clear.

jcress410 wrote:
What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

Not sure whether this is particularly points efficient, but putting a WS behind the opponent is nice for rear armor instead of side...

This is my exact plan. I have a tournament this weekend, but after that... I'll be trying it out.

I may throw a spiritseer in there too, just for some psychic shriek, or other telepathic fun.

jcress410 wrote:
What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

What stops it?

An Archon+Wraithguard do not fit inside a raider. They need a transport with 11 transport capacity. So a waveserpant not a raider. If you DS the waveserpent, then you need to disembark, where as if you DS the raider you can stay on board and fire over the rail. A DE tantalus DSing could be super fun. 7wraithguard+archon+seerer with telepethy. Drop down and kill 3 units. Expensive though.

WWP grants DS+No scatter for the bearer, their unit, and any transport they are on.

morgoth wrote:

jcress410 wrote:
What stops a unit of wraithguard from taking a WS as a dedicated transport, put the archon + WWP inside,

deepstrike, no scatter

wraithguard disembark; should be able to position for dscythe without trouble (even without battle focus).

I don't have the codex on me, did this thread resolve whether the transport has to have deepstrike and the wwp just makes it not scatter, or does the wwp grant ds + no scatter.. ?

Not sure whether this is particularly points efficient, but putting a WS behind the opponent is nice for rear armor instead of side...

It's the same discussion as before, except now you're also wasting a Wave Serpent.

Not points efficient at all.

If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

I think it's pretty clear.

Thanks for the quote. No book on hand.

I'm not saying its definitely a great idea, but its certainly not a waste. Being able to drop the serpent on an objective or behind rear armor and deliver the wraithguard to their intended target feels like a pretty good utilization of points.

Anyway, its probably good to be able to deploy a serpent on turn two or three, at that point you get to react to whatever the opponent is doing instead of having to anticipate it on turn one.

Well, at least its a fun gimmick.