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I've clearly stated the rules on why it would not mishap because you are ending your move onto a model. Take it to there if you can come up with it but special rules override other special rules.

That's a core part of the system.

Hollismason wrote:
I've clearly stated the rules on why it would not mishap because you are ending your move onto a model. Take it to there if you can come up with it but special rules override other special rules.

That's a core part of the system.

Except until you resolve Deep Strike you have not finished moving. Mishap occurs before the model has ended its move.

It doesn't matter if you have finished moving or if it's the end of your move , during your move if you come into contact with a unit you're tank shocking , you tank shock them and they get placed 1inch away and take the test.

At any point during a vehicles tank shock except for pivoting, that vehicle comes in contact with a model other than a Vehicle or a piece of Terrain it tank shocks it.

I'd feel bad again for reposting so much of the rules, but I literally posted the tank shock rules 2 pages ago.


Also I am going to accept your use of the word moving to infer that you do believe deep striking is movement unless you state otherwise or would like to rephrase, if not then please review my previous post in regards to this question.

Insaniak says it's not really possible or quasipossible because you can't obey the tank shock rules because you have to First Pivot, but that doesn't make sense because you can do it from reserve and then you've created a weird logic loop of Catch 22 style where you have to be on the board to pivot to tank shock but your not on the board and have to declare before your on the board. RAI or HIWPI - thinks you can but does not agree RAW

JinxDragon - His argument is that it is not in fact movement at all , that deep strike unto itself is not movement. Does not agree RAW that it is movement.

My Argument - RAW Deep Strike is movement. . and you are able to select it because the rules give you permission to tank shock from reserve.

I do believe that Deep Strike is and of itself is Movement. The scatter of the unit, however, is not movement.

Holismason, let me ask you this.

We can safely assume that the pivot in and of itself is not necessarily necessary. Otherwise, as Insaniak pointed out you would not be able to Tank Shock from Reserves.

How many inches are you declaring? Are you moving the tank straight forward?

Then you agree that a vehicle moving in from deep strike or reserve can tank shock.

No one is discussing or arguing that the Scatter is movment. I don't argue that or contend that scatter is in fact movement. No one is arguing that it creates a Tank Shocking path along it's scatter line because it does not.

My statement is this if you deep strike it counts as movement, if it is tank shocking the rules of tank shock apply to its movement and on it's physical placement if it comes into contact with another unit it does not in fact mishap but instead Tank Shocks that unit.

It not only makes sense from a "thematic" or RAI sense : A giant tank is literally falling on top of you.

RAW it works.

HIWPI - I would indeed play it this way because it is awesome.

edit:

Actually I'll add the caveat that reading per the rules in regards to model placement, in the beginning of the book. You can not in fact place that model on top of a squad, in fact the only way to get the tank shock affect is if the model is placed at least 1 inch away and then scatters on top of a unit.

Let's look at he Tank Shock rules, shall we?

First turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it.

I think we can safely assume that the pivot is not necessarily necessary. Otherwise, as Insaniak pointed out you would not be able to Tank Shock from Reserves.

Declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed.

How many inches are you declaring?

Move the Tank straight forwards until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or reaches the distance declared.

Have you moved the vehicle straight forward?

The problem with that argument is the OR statement. Also I actually pointed the reserves out..

OR it reaches the distance declared.

Hollismason wrote:
The problem with that argument is the OR statement. Also I actually pointed the reserves out..

OR it reaches the distance declared.

You've yet to answer my questions.

How many inches are you declaring?

Are you moving the vehicle straight forward?

And as a side note, the pivot does not count as movement, so you have to move at least 1" straight forward.

It's kind of irrelevant but you can declare 0 and move it in a straight line. It sounds weird but it is in fact perfectly legitimate choice as you've not moved it at all so there for it's not moved any direction other than straight which satisfies that because of the statement it must move in a straight line when it moves and it has moved and not moved diagonally or any other direction.

or

You can follow the actual reserve rules and the tank shock rules and it get's weird. Like Hunter S. Thompson weird, but it makes sense.

Hold on I'll use pictures. Actually I'll do that tommorow have to step out for a bit. I LEAVE YOU IN SUSPENSE!

Just declare 6 inches or whatever you want up to combat speed. You are dropping out of the sky on top of the unit... put your model 6 inches above the unit and move it vertically downward. Boom distance covered.

Hollismason wrote:
It's kind of irrelevant but you can declare 0 and move it in a straight line. It sounds weird but it is in fact perfectly legitimate choice as you've not moved it at all so there for it's not moved any direction other than straight which satisfies that because of the statement it must move in a straight line when it moves and it has moved and not moved diagonally or any other direction.!

If you moved 0" did you move at least Combat Speed?

I don't have 7th, so can only offer possibilities based on what I have read here and the (oh so cynical) assumption, that most of this stuff has simply been copy pasted over from previous editions ...

The idea that deep strike is not a move is nonsensical. To dismiss "further" in the text is not RAW its RAI.

 Happyjew wrote:


If you moved 0" did you move at least Combat Speed?

If the permission to ds immobile units into play still exists, it highlights that this is not reliable.
Something that cannot move at all moves at "X" speed when it is deployed, despite that speed not being quantifiable in inches.

The way I would have argued this in the past, would be to state that placement of a (marker) model is not movement, scatter is moving the marker (as opposed to the unit) and so is not movement in that sense. A unit coming into play, is deployed by moving onto the table.
In the case of a tank coming on from a table edge, under its own power and electing to tank shock, we have a point of origin (just off the table) and therefore its move can be quantified in the terms of distance, and type, tank shock requires both.

On the other hand, ds, is deploying by movement, yet, in order for that unit to move, it has to be deployed.
The unit is deployed using (all of the) rules for deep strike, including mishaps.

If a unit scatters onto an obstacle that is described as causing mishaps, then thats what happens.
After the mishap, the unit is destroyed in which case it was never deployed = did not move.
It is displaced = did deploy and move an unquantifiable distance thataway (it was never at the point it attempted to deep strike to).
Goes back into reserve = did not deploy or move.

I think the question becomes how far can you declare to move a unit that has not deployed (in inches, required by tank shock) by using a method, that to satisfy tank shock (contact) would automatically deny you the right to move into contact because you couldn't deploy where you wanted to???

Contrast this with tank shocking from a table edge.
Can you deploy, yes by moving. Over an enemy unit, yes I have permission to move when I declare the shock. Can you measure the distance moved and declare at which speed you are moving, yes, I have a point of origin.

@Hollismason You are still trying to say you can move 0"? The BRB defines that as stationary, period. Secondly what are you giving up to move as a Tank Shock. It is done instead of moving, so if you are doing that you can't be doing something else. In this case because you would be deep striking you would need to give up the movement part of it, or as you say all of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an addendum, if you are saying the downward movement is the tank shock and I decide to death and glory the model are you going to hold it in place for the rest of the game? If it is dropping in and is destroyed via DoG, but not blown up does this leave a hovering piece of terrain the tallest model's hieght from the table? This also assumes you are coming from the sky and not teleporting in...

If the placement of the first model then the scatter is in fact done with the model and not a marker are you going to test for dangerous terrain each time? In the case of a crowded battle field it could be twice, original placement and then final position. If it fails and is immobilized at the first position do you stop there or are you going to continue the DS?

Gravmyr wrote:
@Hollismason You are still trying to say you can move 0"? The BRB defines that as stationary, period.

This is false. nowhere in the rulebook does the rulebook say that moving 0" always counts as stationary. What is DOES say is that a vehicle that has only pivoted is Stationary. That is an important difference, because there are several things that count as movement in this game. Deep Striking being the example at hand which, coincidentally, counts as combat speed.

Other examples of "Moving" 0 inches:
- If any model in your unit has run, the entire unit counts as having moved in the shooting phase regardless of whether or not each model moved.
- if you roll poorly for your run move, you may choose not to run, but still count as having moved
- Difficult terrain rolls - if you roll poorly for your distance you may opt not to move at all, but you still count as having moved.

moving 0" is not moving.

otherwise someone could declare your heavy weapons team that moved 0" inches moved, and now can only snap fire.

also tank shock doesn't give you permission to begin within 1" of an enemy model, it only gives permission to ignore being within 1" during the movement.

^ I'm not saying ALL 0" movement is movement. Just that specific examples from the rulebook are. Including Deep Strike.

You can say 0 or you can say 6.
The tank itself is considered to have moved at least at Combat Speed regardless of the distance it is moving, I don't have to even state 0 I can state 6 and then declare it's final position, it just can't move any further when it lands but it has reached it's destination and not moved 6 inches. It also cannot move in a line other than straight which is also met.

Either way works because it's satisfied the requirement to 1. Name a distance. 2. Has reached it's destination.


Death or Glory : is done differently now, you just nominate a model if that model fails he dies, if that model succeeds then he's placed 1inch away from the model. Their unit is already placed 1inch away regardless.


It's early I was gonna diagram but we're getting the same questions over again.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you declare 0 inches and then you move 0 inches....you didn't move. You can't tank shock out of deep strike. You can't move after deep strike

blaktoof wrote:
moving 0" is not moving.

otherwise someone could declare your heavy weapons team that moved 0" inches moved, and now can only snap fire.

also tank shock doesn't give you permission to begin within 1" of an enemy model, it only gives permission to ignore being within 1" during the movement.

This is correct, in fact the main rule book disallows physically placing models on top of each other, I already stated the caveat that in fact you could not tank shock on initial placement because it's not allowed. Only if you scatter and land.

You can actually say 0 as it is moving at combat speed regardless. You could say 6 , but then deep strike states once that happens you move no further. So that actually satisfies both requirements.

You could say 6 measure it from off the board side then deep strike it onto the battlefield, which was what I was pointing out in Diagrams but didn't have time this morn as I just woke up.

Johnnytorrance wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you declare 0 inches and then you move 0 inches....you didn't move. You can't tank shock out of deep strike. You can't move after deep strike

You absolutely did move during the deep strike as deep strike literally states that you did.

 Happyjew wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
!

If you moved 0" did you move at least Combat Speed?

Yes. The rules state that you do and that you can move no further.

Please go back and reread the thread we had this argument on like page 1.

Hollismason,
Before I even look at page 4 of this thread, thought I would give you the first thoughts I had on the matter once I awoke up thankful I never get hangovers.

I have been asking for a Rule which states Deep Striking is Movement and this is the one provided to me:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

Before I go any further with this preliminary thought, allow me to go on record for the thousandth time stating how much I despise how the Deep Strike Special Rule was Formatted. This Rule does not function well even in the vacuum it was created for, so any more complicated Rule interactions will undoubtedly causes problems. This includes interaction with the Rules governing Reserves work to begin with, it is another Rule that over-writes the entirety of a process and then informs us to use parts of the process...! This makes it very difficult to try and figure out exactly what is going on between that above sentence and the rest of the Deep Striking Special Rule, and even harder to explain the findings, because the Authors have not provided us with clear enough details on what the Rule is meant to do.

Another thing I need to do before I proceed is correct a flaw in your logic, thought it is not a fatal flaw: At no point are we resolving any Rule found within the Reserve potion of the book, throughout this entire process we are still resolving only a single Rule by the name of Deep Strike. It is not a Rule which creates a conflict inside a sequence, over-writing the individual basic Rule that makes up that step while letting the others resolve like normal, but a Rule which pinches instructions from other sections of the Rulebook while it is self-resolving. The reason I do not think it is a fatal flaw is because the above sentence still is one of the instructions that is being referenced by the Deep Strike Special Rule, the line Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves has to include the instructions on how we go about picking Units in Reserve or no Deep Striking Unit would be able to Arrive.

So on one side:
We have a sentence which is clearly not being used by the Deep Strike Special Rule,
-- it informs us to Move the Models using a process that can not be obeyed by Deep Striking Units

On the other side:
The fact it still exists....
-- The deep Strike Rule stated to use it, so we have to use it somehow

Leaving me in the middle trying to solve this little knot:
So how do we resolve this conflict, as it is now within a single Rule and not some Rule interaction that would fall under Basic Vs Advanced?!

Also, assuming Deep Strike is Movement outright, and is not reliant on 'count as' Rules for a pusdo-movement like feel:
How do you ensure they Model does not violate the Restriction against moving past it's maximum allowance?
Where do you even measure this Movement from, in order to prove it has not?

The secondary points that where irrelevant.
- Shooting an interceptor weapon happens in the movement phase, does that mean the Enemy Unit is moving?
- One of the Reserve Rules pinched by Deep Strike inform us that we must move onto the next Unit after resolving the first
--- There are already restrictions against moving a Unit twice in a single Movement Phase
- The Count as Clause for the shooting phase is also pointless as the normal Movement phase cover it

@Bojazz Your entire argument is that DS and infantry units, notably basically only when you decide not to move after trying to move, have instances where they are counted as having moved without moving. They each give those exceptions, that is how this game works. You do not have wording in TS that gives you such an exception. Stating that it doesn't say under Combat Speed that you have to move and you can declare 0" means that all vehicles can never fire as Stationary as they have all moved up to 6". The same can be said of infantry units as someone else pointed out.

@hollisman Again what movement are you giving up to TS in your example? What about Dangerous terrain and the positioning of the model?

@JinxDragon - This is how I see it working actually.
@Gravmyr - Read this fully.

Yeah I had quoted that in the multiple instances where it states it's movement, but yeah it creates this sequence which to me is a legitimate way to do it without breaking rules.

1. Select a Unit to move onto the Board From Reserves, you can declare this is tank shocking and use the deep strike rules.

2. According to the actual Reserve rules you are to place this unit off board, like physically it states you should do this but not if it would damage the model or you don't have an offboard.

3. As we've stated it is actually possible to pivot before coming on, so you would do that you also have to do that per the rules for Deep Strike. Declare your distance 0 - 6.
Premeasure. You'd premeasure from your board edge! Because it is technically placed offboard on your side

4. Now deep strike occurs. It can be placed beyond that 6 inch measurement from your board edge because of the deep strike rules.

5. Follow the Deep Strike rules. Remembering that it has to be a straight line forward due to tank shock.

6. If it would end it's move either due to scatter or due to rolling a hit. Remembering that if it lands on anything that is not a unit it has to be placed 1 inch away which the direction would indicate towards your board edge where it was coming on at. So it would not be placed 1 inch behind but 1 inch in front of tanks etc..

7. Here's the interesting part. If it were a skimmer and you were not tank shocking, the above would apply as well.


This is actually how deep strike physically works when playing no one does that but this is RAW how you do it.

You physically place the unit "offboard" at your table edge. Then move it onto the battlefield usingthe deep strike rules.

Which still does not cover what move you are not performing to be able to TS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nor any of the other questions I posed.

Before I begin, let us agree to ignore the Tank Shock nonsense and anything else irrelevant to Resolving the Deep Strike Special Rule itself so we are dealing with one problem at a time.

Problem One:
Deep Strike does not inject itself into an already existing set of Rules, it is resolved in it's entity, so the Deep Strike "sequence" begins looking something like this:
(I have posted each Rule so people can see the actual wording as well)

1) Evoke the Deep Strike Rule
1a) Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows
2) Roll for Each unit as per the Deep Strike Special Rule
2a) Roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve
2b) If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.
2c) When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.
3) Deply, as per the Deep Strike Special Rule

Notice how this order of resolution does not require us to start with the Reserve Rule before 'nesting' the Deep Strike within, but it simply involves using nothing but the Deep Strike Rule itself to facilitate the Arrival. There is one major headache within the above, but it is one created by the very wording of the Deep Strike Rule itself when it states as specified in the rules for Reserves. No Rule should simply state to review another section of the book without more detailed instructions as to why and how. This is in order to avoid all confusion that might come from other Rules that can interact with the same section of the book. For example, many have taken this simple instruction as reasoning to include everything Reserve related into the Deep Strike Special Rule. From a Pure Rule as Written vantage we need those definitions in order to ensure we do not over-step the intended bounds of the Rule.

So can it be agreed that, at this point in time, the only focus is really on 2c as it is the only Rule presented to show that 'Arriving from Reserves' is Movement by default?

Assuming so:
Have you ever noticed it states 'When Reserves Arrive' and the Deep Strike Rule is specific to the Roll itself, not the actual Arrival?
- Does this sentence actually trigger or are we both assuming it does?
What about the requirement to Move as per the instructions below?
- We both know those are the default Arriving instructions directly below this Rule in the book, so how do you resolve that conflict from a Rule as Written point of view?

I think that sequence of events satsifies both the rules for Reserve and the Rules for Deep Strike.
1. Select a unit in reserve.
2. Place it offboard in a nebulous region.
3. Move it onto the board via the deep strike rules.

The deep strike is the part that interupts that sequence. Do we consider a Reserve movement a normal part of the rules where a advanced rule takes precedent? I think it does as that is a "normal" sequence for reserves and Deep Strike is a special rule. So it would follow those rules of Reserve until it reached a contradiction where in the deep strike rules would apply.

So you have this

ABC order of events
Deep Strike interrupts B but still is a conitnuation

So you'd have

A Not so fast buddy I'm a deepstriker C

Can you please edit your post and show the exact wording of the Rules which support each individual step in your resolution?

I have done the curtsy of posting Rule Support for the concept that Deep Strike does not inject itself into other sequences, but can be Resolved entirely on it's own.
.... Well, sort of, as it does steal instructions from other places but that is different then being injected into an existing sequences ....

Sure

Okay here is the deepstrike thing

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

1. We know previously from Reserves we have to select a unit. So I'm not reposting that.


2. We know for the portion of the rules that we roll for the arrival of deep strike according to the reserve rules.

Now the under lined portion is important it says to

and then deploy them as follows

So we know that there's a interjection because in the Reserves rules it states:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.



That underline portion is where the Deep Strike rules interject and say hold up buddy let's get in my van .

So the portion about deploying reserves is ignored, but not the rest of the rules for Reserves. Just the portion dealing with deployment of them and getting them onto the board.

So it can be written as follows :

Instead of simply repeating myself, by pointing out that the Deep Strike Special Rule resolves the underline section perfectly fine without needing to be 'injected' into the Reserve Sequence, I will try and show why it resolve's itself completely fine. There is a section you underlined which is very important to understanding the sentence as a whole. This is because that section informs us to deploy them as Follows: so the Rules which actually follow are very vital to the understanding. There is also this question: If use a Rule that does not follow that underlined statement, have we obeyed that underline statement?


• • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

Please underline the section in that block of Rules which:
A) States that Deep Striking is Movement
B) States that Deep Striking uses the Reserve Rules related to deploying Models
C) Can not be resolved without using a Reserve Rule related to deploying Models

That's the subsection from Deep strike and further statements are made that Deep strike is movement further within the rules.

You can't piecemeal and say state this. Everything has to be taken as a whole.

Otherwise you've created a Striction.

So you are arguing that I have somehow selectively selecting the Rules and that the questions themselves are irrelevant because of it?
This can easily be fixed, quote the Deep Strike Special Rule clauses that support your position and underline the sections which answer my questions.

PS:
I do have to point out that your counter argument to these very important question accusing me of isolating sections of Rules to fit my purposes. The argument you made, which spawned these questions, was isolating the worlds Deploy Them as some sort of justification to Resolve a section from a completely different Rule. This was done while completely ignoring that the very next words where as Follows and that the next section of Instructions literally telling us how to Deploy said Unit without requiring any outside influence to do so.

I normally do not attack a person's argument style like this, but it needs to be said that making such an accusation instead of answering some simple questions is just very... very... interesting.