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even without needing to pivot

deep strike is a method of deployment, not movement so you may count as moving but you haven't moved in any direction on the table.

tank shock does not give permission to ignore rules for deployment and being within 1" of an enemy model/impassable terrain so you mishap before you would even make it to a "tank shock" step. Tank shock gives permission to ignore being within 1" of an enemy model during the tank shock part of the move which is measure from where the model is to its final point. where is the final point after deep striking when you are not allowed to move any further?


if you didn't mishap you still then have the issue of having no movement to actually tank shock with.

I think the mishap rule covers it all.
Did one model land partially or fully on top of, or within 1" of an enemy model?
If so, mishap.

Sure, tank shocked models are moved out of the way after the unit ends on top of them, but it still land on a model (who was then later moved).

At best, you could deep strike onto an enemy, declare a tank shock, force an Ld test, and then roll the mishap.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Insaniak - how are you resolving the deepstrike, when before the model arrives (whcih is the point at which you determine if the unit has been tank shocked; you cannot tank shock a unit if you have yet to arrive, as you havent fulfilled the requirement to actually move into the unit) any unit it "contacts" forces a mishap, which will at best result in the DS unit returning to reserves?

I would scatter the deep striking vehicle as normal, and resolve the tank shock with the vehicle's final landing location.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think the mishap rule covers it all.
Did one model land partially or fully on top of, or within 1" of an enemy model?
If so, mishap.

Sure, tank shocked models are moved out of the way after the unit ends on top of them, but it still land on a model (who was then later moved).

At best, you could deep strike onto an enemy, declare a tank shock, force an Ld test, and then roll the mishap.

Excepting that a tank shocking vehicle has a specific rule that states you can end your move on top of a enemy model. Every scenario is actually covered. I'll have to get home but I believe I already answered this.

Deep Strike is actually movement. It states that the vehicle is counting as moved at combat speed.

All the relevant rules questions , the one that INSANIAK brings up is that the statement FIRST YOU, precedes the move, where as I believe that it states clearly that you actually Declare tank shock Pivot it or declare it's pivot premeasure , then declare the distance, then follow the rules for deep strike with the addage that Tank Shock allows it to land on top of a unit.

Hollismason wrote:
..., where as I believe that it states clearly that you actually Declare tank shock Pivot it or declare it's pivot premeasure , ....

The rules say nothing about 'declaring' a pivot. They just tell you to turn the model in the direction it is going to go.

For RAW, you simply can't get around the requirement to have a model physically present on the table at the time you declare the tank shock, as there is no rule that allows you to skip this step.

 insaniak wrote:

The rules say nothing about 'declaring' a pivot. They just tell you to turn the model in the direction it is going to go.

So your interpretation requires a vehicle to always pivot at least some before Tank Shocking then? No vehicle can ever Tank Shock in the direction it was already facing?

There are a couple of things here that should be addressed.
1. A vehicle that is stationary moves nil, pg 73. While one that moves at combat speed is up to 6", pg 73. Therefor the model must move between >0" and 6" to move combat speed. You must move at that speed to Tank Shock. How are you moving it forward that speed? If you are just sitting there are you tank shocking?
2. The model is not on the board till after deployment. Mishaps happen before deployment, pg 162. How are there models under the Tank Shocking model?
3. One can only Tank Shock instead of moving normally, pg 92. Is deploying via Deep Strike considered to be moving normally?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
So your interpretation requires a vehicle to always pivot at least some before Tank Shocking then? No vehicle can ever Tank Shock in the direction it was already facing?

No, my interpretation requires there to be a vehicle in play to be turned to face its target.

There is functionally no difference between turning the tank 360 degrees and just not bothering to turn it. You can spin the tank all the way around if it makes you feel better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gravmyr wrote:
... Therefor the model must move between >0" and 6" to move combat speed.

Unless there is a special rule in play that counts it as having moved at combat speed. Such as with deep strike.

The question then becomes - does the fact that it is counted as having moved at combat speed actually satisfy the tank shock requirement to move at combat speed?

Which is debateable, but I'm leaning towards 'no'... The vehicle never actually moves at combat speed. It is just counted as having done so once it has arrived.

It is counted as having done so during the Shooting Phase:
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles). This can affect the number of weapons they can fire with their full Ballistic Skill
Why do people keep ignoring this little inconvenient fact?

There is also this little one too:
When moving a vehicle with the Tank type, the player can declare that it is going to attempt to Tank Shock or Ram instead of moving normally.
If you are not making a "normal" movement to begin with, how are you going to evoke a Rule which allows you to substitute a Tank Shock / Ram for your normal movement?

JinxDragon wrote:
If you are not making a "normal" movement to begin with, how are you going to evoke a Rule which allows you to substitute a Tank Shock / Ram for your normal movement?

The same way you invoke any rule that replaces shooting on models that don't have a ranged weapon?

That model still has the ability to shoot just not a weapon that can be fired....

Gravmyr wrote:
That model still has the ability to shoot just not a weapon that can be fired....

Just as the deep striking vehicle has the ability to move normally... it just isn't doing so right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This, however...

JinxDragon wrote:
It is counted as having done so during the Shooting Phase:
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles). This can affect the number of weapons they can fire with their full Ballistic Skill
Why do people keep ignoring this little inconvenient fact?

...is the final nail on the deep striking tank shock coffin, though. It seems we've all been taking the sentence that tells us it moved at combat speed in isolation. When you put the preceeding statement there, suddenly the context is quite clearly specifically the shooting phase. So there is no way we can count the vehicle as moving at combat speed to satisfy the condition of tank shock... even if you could get past the pivot step with a vehicle that isn't yet on the table.

Except the model is not moving normally nor does it have the ability to move normally while Deep Striking.

Gravmyr wrote:
Except the model is not moving normally nor does it have the ability to move normally while Deep Striking.

Yes, that was the point. Just as the model without a gun isn't shooting.

Sure, the Model has the ability to Move but until it Evokes permission to does not meet the requirements to Evoke this Rule.

After completely Resolving the Deep Strike Rule, as the core concept of Sequencing prevents us resolving two Rules simultaneous, we encounter a Restriction preventing any further movement. It exists to remove one line of permission from the Movement Phase itself, which is why the Restriction is found in a paragraph that starts: In the Movement Phase. That line is obviously: You can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance and without it there is no longer permission to move a Model within that Unit.

Therefore, without a more specific Rule stating that Deep Strike allows access to alternative Movement related Rules, we simply do not have permission to Move the Model till after the Rule restricting Movement is already in play. As the only other thing that relates to Movement within the Rule is a 'count as' Clause for the Shooting Phase, it is going to be difficult to prove that this Rule allows other Rules to trigger at all, let alone simultaneously trigger. While the counter argument simply points to the very existence of these two clauses as evidence, as they they would not need to exist at all if Deep Strike was Movement. The Unit would already be bound by Restrictions preventing it from being nominated for further movement and would already trigger Weapon related clauses when it comes to Shooting.

Besides, there is this large flaw in the concept too:
If Deep Strike is considered 'normal movement' for the purpose of Tank Shock
And Tank Shock is done instead of normal Movement
Where is permission to Deep strike and Tank Shock?

One is done instead of the other, so it would need to be a choice between the two... well, if it wasn't for the Must clause within the Deep Strike Rule...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insaniak,
I will state this, the Rule interactions involved in combining these two situations are wonderful and thank you for keeping me up all night worrying over them. If Deep Strike is ever proven to be 'normal movement' for the purposes of the Tank Shock Rule, or really movement for the purposes of any Rule outside the Shooting Phase clause, then we will have a massive knot on our hands. If I could give you a picture of the flow charts my mind is creating right now it would be terrifying. Jotting the default Rule then the parts which get over written, then the entire thing being over written by Tank Shock, only to have Tank Shock refer back to Arrival with no detail on if that is Arrival by default or the massive re-written Arrival rules created by several previous modifications!

Glorious Rule interactions indeed, now I have to try and force myself to sleep.
Rule debates do not put food on the table, though they do indicate Game Workshop should consider paying a good Editor.

Jinxdragon I kind of always know when you have free time, I think we're on the same schedule. Cause I'll be like, huh 4 new posts in YMDC, and come in and like 4 threads will have been posted.


Also I posted this in response to the other thread but I'll repost it here


In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one. <- this directly implies that it is movement by stating it cannot move anyfurther than where you place it


Here's a bunch of relevant passages to catch people up if their reading the thread I posted these in the skimmer thread.


Then you have this in the movement phase:

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Which implies movement other than just humdrum movement is still movement it's just explained later.

Then you've got this from the Vehicle Section:

• Combat Speed. A vehicle that travels up to 6" is said to be moving at Combat Speed. This represents the vehicle advancing slowly to keep firing, albeit with reduced firepower.

Then you've got this from the actual rules for reserve

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.

Which is weiiiiiiird.

 insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Insaniak - how are you resolving the deepstrike, when before the model arrives (whcih is the point at which you determine if the unit has been tank shocked; you cannot tank shock a unit if you have yet to arrive, as you havent fulfilled the requirement to actually move into the unit) any unit it "contacts" forces a mishap, which will at best result in the DS unit returning to reserves?

I would scatter the deep striking vehicle as normal, and resolve the tank shock with the vehicle's final landing location.

It doesn't arrive until after you check for mishap; meaning it will ALWAYS mishap before you can determine if it has tank shocked any unit.

Actually if you read the rules for Reserves and how you are suppose to move them onto the board, it's perfectly clear for me at least that you can do it because we have specifically been ignoring a specific key part of moving onto the board from reserve.

This one:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.
Moving On From Reserve
1. When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge.


Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. This is where Deep Strike interrupts

Deep Strike though has a different method for placing them onto the board so the second part doesn't work..

It literally states that a unit arriving from reserve should be placed at the board edge. Then follow it's movement rules, it's movement rule is to deep strike though so you then reposition it, but it is still Tank Shocking so it is allowed to be placed on top of models as it can end it's move on top of models due to the tank shock rules.

No, IF it would end up on top of models, it moves them out of the way. First it has to finish moving.

You have at least 3 problems:

1) You do not count as moving combat until shooting. Meaning you cannot declare 0" as you will, in fact, not have moved Combat Speed or greater.
2) YOu do not move anything until you have finished arriving by deepstrike, whcih is after you check for mishap.
3) You havent actually arrived until after you check for mishap. Mishap interrupts the process before completion, meaning you have NOT arrived by deepstrike as yet, meaning you have not yet moved.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It doesn't arrive until after you check for mishap; meaning it will ALWAYS mishap before you can determine if it has tank shocked any unit.

Yup. That was talking about how I would choose to play it, not RAW.

Ah OK, fair enough

I do think it would make it interesting, as it is still quite a high risk maneuver - bad scatter into a vehicle etc could cause issues

Hollismason,
The inclusion of the word further is completely meaningless from a Rule as Written perspective, to repost:
If we where grading Game Worship on the perfect use of syntax and grammar then maybe that inclusion of the word "further" would have been relevant. However, as we know this company has already played fast and loose with the English language in the past, the inclusion of this one word is not enough to dramatically change the possible meanings behind that single sentence. Given that it really is a Language Debate, which the forum has Tenets against as language is very flexible depending on location and personal interpretations, I'm going to counter that a restriction on Moving 'to a greater distance' can still be applied to a Model which has not Moved, as 1 Inch is a greater distance then 0 Inches.

From a Rule perspective:
There is no reason to have a Restriction preventing the Unit from 'moving further' if it had already Moved, as the default method of movement involves selecting a Unit that has yet to complete a Move that turn.
There is no need to state that it counts as having Moved in the following Shooting phase, as it would have actually Moved instead.

So the question remains:
Has a Unit Moved if it does not utilize any of the Movement related Rules and the Rule does not specifically state that it is Movement or contain instructions stating to move the model?



The default instructions for Arriving from Reserves state to place the model and then move them from their current location.
Deep Strike instructions simply state to place the model in the location indicated by the scatter and remain there, restricted from any further movement.

Including the word further doesn't suddenly make that placement into movement, that requires the instructions within the Deep Strike Special Rule to state we are moving the Model. As the Unit has yet to make any motion that is considered movement by the Rules, it would be entirely possible to select that Unit and then Move them. Had it considered to have Moved prior to that selection it would no longer be legal to select that Unit to move them in any case. That is why the restriction exists, and it's inclusion of the word further doesn't simply make it's existence redundant. It still is a Restriction pointed at a very specific line within the basic Movement Rules, granting a model the ability to move up to their maximum distance.

It is simply a poorly chosen word from a company that has a history of choosing words poorly and without actual instructions to move... meaningless.

Simple question:
If a Model moves 0 inches from where it is placed, not even pivoting which we know does not trigger movement related Rules, and nothing states it has actually moved.
How do you prove it has moved?

Jinxdragon , it really seems like that this conversation has gotten lost in the weeds completely.

Let's step back and just look at the specific way units enter play and whether that is movement. So let's remove everything from the equation but a unit Deep Striking let's also remove mishap because we don't need to discuss that just yet.

So first what happens?

We pick a unit to arrive from reserves.

We roll for reserves.

We then have to move that model onto the board correct?

That's movement.

First it's occuring in the movement phase, which clearly states this is when models generally are allowed to move.

Then we have the statement of the actual rule itself that states it cannot move any further.

Now let's look at the other option : Does it count as moving.

Here's a question then:

If you deepstrike a unit with a heavy weapon, does it snap fire?

If this statement was the only statement made, ignore all other statements, don't quote them just assume that the rest about shooting phase etc.. does not exist and assume this is the only sentence that's there and answer that question.

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.

So let's play pretend and just accept that sentence is the only one. Can we answer that question?

Wouldn't that just be a mishap?

That's the argument presented against it but two rules come into play, the Skimmer rules and the Tank Shock rules themselves. Both which affect this situation, right now the argument is over where Deep Strike is a movement and you are in fact ending your movement with final placement.

This one is tough... Because Hollis is (IMO) correct, you DO have to move the model from off the board onto it and it states that it counts as moving at combat speed. All the while you are invoking a rule that specifically allows you to place your model amongst another unit outside of normal rules (tank shock). Invoking that rule *should* take care of the mishap. So to break it down in my interpretation (note that this is assuming you either WWPed in or rolled a Hit on scatter and you chose to arrive directly within an enemy unit)-
-We have a rule that allows us to tank shock from reserves
-Moving from off the table onto it is in theory movement
-Since we dont typically move distances in the Z axis the Deep Strike rule assigned us a distance "moved" (combat speed)
-You can technically say any number up to the vehicles combat speed, as you are moving vertically
-Pivoting has no relevance as you are already "aimed" when you come in, or if you prefer a visual element, helos when landing in "hot" LZs for recovery of personnel will come in at an extreme angle and whip the nose up at the last second. Imagine this, but with chain snares and it works.
-Landing in the middle of a unit is not a "mishap" as we have invoked a rule that specifically permits us to end movement on top of an enemy unit
-Tank shock as normal

I personally would never do this as it is opening the door to entirely too much arguing and 40k has plenty of that as it is, but from what i can tell it works

Hollismason,
I will review this over the weekend, not in the right mind now, but I see the one section in the rules which would be interesting to poke at in the very least.

Sure, thing look forward to it. I'm looking at some of the new codexes that have deep strike rules as sometimes the special rules get rewritten.

I kinda want this to be a thing... I'm imagining a BA Land Raider dropping from the sky and SPLAT.

What was the resolution on the Skimmer/Deep Strike argument?

That you mishap before you have finished moving, is the answer. It's only not accepted by one poster, for no rules based reason