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I wasn't making a restriction, I was making a replacement. , I think that the total sum of deep strike replaces the rules for Moving on from Reserves.

Specifically the heading

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn................................................................ Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.


This is what (1) Refers to


Moving On From Reserve
................................... Deep Strike Rules..........................................

This is what (2) replaces


As per what I previously underlined.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves(1) and then deploy them as follows: (2)

Hollismason wrote:
That's the subsection from Deep strike and further statements are made that Deep strike is movement further within the rules.

Could you quote that for me?
Because all I see is that the first time deep strike counts as movement is in the shooting phase.
Which, makes it very hard to tank shock during the movement phase.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
That's the subsection from Deep strike and further statements are made that Deep strike is movement further within the rules.

Could you quote that for me?
Because all I see is that the first time deep strike counts as movement is in the shooting phase.
Which, makes it very hard to tank shock during the movement phase.

It's already been quoted multiple times that it counts as moving at combat speed, it's also stated multiple times in the reserves portion of the book as well. I'm not like a rule quoting monkey, the sections have both been quoted multiple times verbatim the thread. In fact I had this same argument with someone in this thread that stated the " It's only movement in the shooting phase".

If you want your answer look at the first paragraph of Deep Strike. Then read the Arriving from Reserves section both imply or outright state it's a movement.

And I pointed out your flaw, thrice now, and it still has yet to be addressed to my satisfaction:
Where are you getting permission to Nest/Inject/Resolve the Deep Strike Rule into the Reserve Rule?

The Core Concept of Sequencing requires us to Resolve the Deep Strike Special Rule in it's entirety, unless informed otherwise. All I want is a Rule which specifically informs us that Deep Strike is one such situation, or evidence that Deep Strike can not be Resolved by following nothing more then the instructions within. Before you point back to the sentence stating Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves then deploy them as follows: as some sort of evidence that it needs out-side instructions to function, I want you to keep in mind that the sentence is:
A) Specifies the act of Rules related to rolling, such as when we Roll the D6 and what it means, and nothing else within in the Arriving from Reserve section let alone any other Reserve Rule
B) Instructions to Deploy as follows, so even if it granted permission to do as you state is needed it would still over-write any Rule that originally related to how the model was deployed
C) Allows a single set of instructions be 'injected' into the Deep Strike Special Rule, and mentions nothing about the Deep Strike Special Rule being 'injected' into other Rules

At this point in time I have one simple request:
Please post another Rule which addresses your point or explain to my satisfaction why I should ignore the fact Deep Strike can be self-resolved in favour of your injection method.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt,
There are two other clauses, which where posted and addressed prior, which contain movement related instructions within the Deep Strike Special Rule itself:
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase.
and
Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

The first is clearly triggered during the Shooting Phase, so it does not prove the concept that Deep Strike is movement by default and can not influence any Rules outside of this phase.
The second all rests on the single word 'further' and it's possible meanings, but dictionary arguments are very poor evidence for Rule Support for a wide range of reasons.
- The word 'further' might not be the best choice but doesn't outright change the meaning of the entire sentence so the only correct answer is that the Models previously Moved.

I also point out:
Both Rules would not need to exist if Arriving from Reserves was Movement by default or that Deep Strike itself was Movement by default.

JinxDragon wrote:
And I pointed out your flaw, thrice now, and it still has yet to be addressed to my satisfaction:
Where are you getting permission to Nest/Inject/Resolve the Deep Strike Rule into the Reserve Rule?

The Core Concept of Sequencing requires us to Resolve the Deep Strike Special Rule in it's entirety, unless informed otherwise. All I want is a Rule which specifically informs us that Deep Strike is one such situation, or evidence that Deep Strike can not be Resolved by following nothing more then the instructions within. Before you point back to the sentence stating Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves then deploy them as follows: as some sort of evidence that it needs out-side instructions to function, I want you to keep in mind that the sentence is:
A) Specifies the act of Rules related to rolling, such as when we Roll the D6 and what it means, and nothing else within in the Arriving from Reserve section let alone any other Reserve Rule
B) Instructions to Deploy as follows, so even if it granted permission to do as you state is needed it would still over-write any Rule that originally related to how the model was deployed
C) Allows a single set of instructions be 'injected' into the Deep Strike Special Rule, and mentions nothing about the Deep Strike Special Rule being 'injected' into other Rules

At this point in time I have one simple request:
Please post another Rule which addresses your point or explain to my satisfaction why I should ignore the fact Deep Strike can be self-resolved in favour of your injection method.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt,
There are two other clauses, which where posted and addressed prior, which contain movement related instructions within the Deep Strike Special Rule itself:
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase.
and
Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

The first is clearly triggered during the Shooting Phase, so it does not prove the concept that Deep Strike is movement by default and can not influence any Rules outside of this phase.
The second all rests on the single word 'further' and it's possible meanings, but dictionary arguments are very poor evidence for Rule Support for a wide range of reasons.
- The word 'further' might not be the best choice but doesn't outright change the meaning of the entire sentence so the only correct answer is that the Models previously Moved.

I also point out:
Both Rules would not need to exist if Arriving from Reserves was Movement by default or that Deep Strike itself was Movement by default.

Do we need another example other than the one that we've discussed this is a direct reference to a rule stating to use another rule except X portion of the rule. I'm kind of work right now but I can name a few examples off the top of my head, Interceptor, Specifically interrupts or interjects itself into a sequence.

There's a few others as well, for example multiple rules regarding Vehicles and Transports have some very specific rules that say hold up we talked about that but we're gonna do this.

How does the Interceptor Special Rule inject itself into a sequence and, for that matter, what sequence is it even injecting itself into?!

This is the Interceptor Special Rule, after all:
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.
Underline the section which is leading you to the conclusion of where and how it 'injects' itself into other Rules.

Besides, my request was not to prove the existence of Rules which modify the individual steps of a Sequences. There are plenty of Special Rules which over-write individual Rules/Steps within another Sequence that I know of, so the concept is not foreign to me. A far better example then interceptor, which doesn't do what you claim at all, is Blast Markers. The Blast Marker Special Rule will have us resolve the To Hit portion of the Shooting Sequence using it's own instructions instead of the normal To Hit Rule, clearly 'injecting' itself by making a conflict and over-writing the existing Rule. It contains instructions making it very clear that this is what it is doing however, such as do not roll To Hit. Instead, and roll To Wound and save as normal which inform us when the Rule triggers, what it over-writes in the original sequence and when control is returned to the original Sequence.

So maybe understanding that I am not stating these rules can not exist will put the request back into the context which it was intended:
A Rule which supports the concept that the Deep Strike Special Rule can only function as part of a greater Sequence.

The single sentence that even comes close to that has been dissected and I draw a different conclusion then to yourself. It grants the Deep Strike Special Rule permission to use Rules from the Reserve section of the book, no doubt about that, but I see it limited to Rules related to the Roll itself. I do not see this as instructions to somehow resolve half of the Reserve Rules till we get to the point where we would 'move' the Models and only then jump to the Deep Strike instructions. If anything it states that the 'injection' of a Rule would be one from the Reserve section of the book into the Arrival Sequence created by Deep Strike, not the other way around.

Another problem with that sentence being instruction to use the Reserve sequence, modified, is that it conflicts with any instruction involving Deployment of the models themselves. That would include the sentence When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below as the underlined section indicates the instruction is directly related to Deploying Arriving Models. Not only does that cause a problem, but the three words after instructions involving movement are 'as described below' right before referring a section that is clearly not being used by Deep Strike.

However, if we take it as permission to 'inject' the instructions related to the dice Rolls themselves into the Deep Strike Special Rule?
We can resolve Deep Striking using nothing more then the Deep Strike Special Rules itself... interesting that.

A Rule which supports the concept that the Deep Strike Special Rule can only function as part of a greater Sequence.

In regards to reserves it has to operate with in that sequence.

In regards to other special rules, no because those are special rules that specifically override.

I'm honestly at a loss at what you are actually arguing.

Please post a Rule which proves that concept as simply stating "it has to operate with in that sequence" is re-affirming your assumption, and does not support it.

This is an example of what you can do, for it shows how to Resolve the Deep Strike Special Rule using nothing but quotable Rules within the Deep Strike Special Rule:

1: Evoke the Deep Strike Special Rule
- Always start with the evocation of the Rule.
2: Place the Unit into Reserve as per this instruction: the unit must start the game in Reserve.
3) Notify my opponent that the Unit is actually in Deep Strike Reserve as per this instruction: You must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)
4) Roll for the Unit Arriving as per these instructions: Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves
- This is where you are applying the Rule backwards, resolving Deep Strike as a later stage of Reserves instead of Rolling for Arrival as part of Deep Strike
- The Restriction on when the Roll is made, and the results of a 'success and failure' are the only things directly related to the Roll itself so we only have permission to include these Rules
5) Place a Model and roll for scatter as per: First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position.
6) Place the rest of the Unit as per: Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one.

All using nothing but the Deep Strike Rule, as Roll for Arrival is resolved as an internal part of Deep Strike.
There is no requirement to Resolve Deep Strike as an internal part of Reserves for the above to function....

Hollismason wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
That's the subsection from Deep strike and further statements are made that Deep strike is movement further within the rules.

Could you quote that for me?
Because all I see is that the first time deep strike counts as movement is in the shooting phase.
Which, makes it very hard to tank shock during the movement phase.

It's already been quoted multiple times that it counts as moving at combat speed, it's also stated multiple times in the reserves portion of the book as well. I'm not like a rule quoting monkey, the sections have both been quoted multiple times verbatim the thread. In fact I had this same argument with someone in this thread that stated the " It's only movement in the shooting phase".

If you want your answer look at the first paragraph of Deep Strike. Then read the Arriving from Reserves section both imply or outright state it's a movement.

Sorry, you're not exactly making a clear argument, it's spread over several pages.
Ok, so combat speed, page 162:
Combat speed only comes into effect during the shooting phase, and is then retroactively applied to the movement phase (In that thurn's shooting phase... and count as having moved in the previous movement phase.)
The 3rd paragraph says they cannot move further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle if they are in one.
Ok, so you can argue further implies movement.
Let's assume you're correct.
Resolve this: (and I am a quote monkey for debates, it makes it much easier)

I Death or Glory.
I successfully score an immobilize result. As per the rules, PAGE 92, 2nd Paragraph under Death or Glory, "If the model successfully manages to wreck the vehicle, or inflict a Crew Stunned, Immobilized or Explodes! result, the vehicle halts 1" away from the heroic individual (or blows up there)."

IMO, if your new take on tank shocking doesn't work with the rules for death or glory (part of tank shocking), then you new take is most likely wrong.

Furthermore, can you explain why you think tank shock triggers before Mishap.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Resolve this: (and I am a quote monkey for debates, it makes it much easier)

I Death or Glory. I successfully score an immobilize result. As per the rules, PAGE 92, 2nd Paragraph under Death or Glory, "If the model successfully manages to wreck the vehicle, or inflict a Crew Stunned, Immobilized or Explodes! result, the vehicle halts 1" away from the heroic individual (or blows up there)." IMO, if your new take on tank shocking doesn't work with the rules for death or glory (part of tank shocking), then you new take is most likely wrong.

Furthermore, can you explain why you think tank shock triggers before Mishap.

That is a pretty good take on it.

Where does the vehicle end up if stunned/immobilized? Should it Mishap then, or get a free safe placement? If it mishaps you now have the possibility of a vehicle incapable of moving ending up in Ongoing Reserves... Is it automatically destroyed since it can't move onto the table next turn? Or will the Delayed result somehow mean it DIDN'T take damage since it never arrived and so could never have been hit by DoG?

If it is destroyed, where do the passengers end up? Mishap or free safe placement?

If it explodes, does the explosion hit the brave unit that did DoG? From what point do you measure how many are hit?

For the sake of sanity I'd keep Mishap before Tank Shock - that leaves the fewest absurd questions to solve. So you're technically allowed to try but can never resolve it before mishapping.

I think this one has gone around in circles for long enough.

I would recommend discussing this with your opponent pre-game before trying it at home.