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Combat Speed is a specified speed for the vehicle (generally 6", iirc, for ground vehicles). If you only move 3", you're not moving at Combat Speed (unless you are in a really slow vehicle). Actually, IIRC, DS counts as Moving at Cruising Speed... but that might be a hold-over memory from a previous Edition.

Here's another scenario, you decide you tank shock. You don't place it on a unit but it is still tank shocking, and it scatters onto a unit does that unit get tank shocked?

No, as it satisfies none of the rules for Tank Shocking. You didn't pivot to face your direction of Scatter (as that is determined randomly), you didn't declare the intention to move the distance of Scatter (as that, too, is determined randomly) and, lastly, if the unit passes its test, and moves out of the way, how do you determine how far into the terrain this air-dropping vehicle buries its nose?

Here's the scenario: You have a Landraider off board, Your opponent has a line of models at your board edge. Can you tank shock through them? Why or Why not?

Yes, because:

A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board

So you park the LR (in this case) at the board edge those fools are standing on. You declare your movement distance (let's say 6") and drive forward over these fools from the edge of the board (because Tank Shock tells us we can ignore the rule about moving through enemy units). They make the Morale test. They pass, but because of terrain, 4 of them can't remain in coherency and would end up under the LR, and so get squished. The LR rolls on to the limit of the 6" declared movement. There's no other units in the area, so no one else needs to test. The rest of the unit you just drove over remain in coherency at the board edge where they started, provided they follow the other rules with Tank Shocking for not being within 1" of the tank.

Then, they assault your rear armor their next Turn and blow your LR away with a meltabomb and bayonets, but that's besides the point.

The model is never on the table to create the tank shock. If the model cannot be placed due to models it mishaps and is not placed. The first placement of the model is nothing more than a marker which is then moved via scatter. It's the exact reason skimmers still mishap.

Tank Shocking from Reserves tells us it doesn't need to be on the table...

... unless you mean DSing a tank on top of models, then I would agree that you cant TS, because of that reason as well. Also because it can only move in one direction, which in this case is straight down.

Hollismason wrote:
You have to resolve the deep strike first. Just as you would resolve moving a unit onto the board.

This is incorrect. If you are tank shocking on from reserve, you don't get to move the vehicle and then also make the tank shock. The movement on is your tank shock.

Doing it from Deep Strike would be the same.

By your logic then you cannot in fact tank shock from reserve, which you in fact can.

Yes, I already pointed that out. Twice.


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 Psienesis wrote:
Does matter if this is the actual rule:

To perform a Tank Shock, first, turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it and, after pre-measuring, declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed. The vehicle must move at least Combat Speed. Note that, because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a Tank Shock.

Don't have the book in front of me to verify, so taking it on faith that that is the verbatim rule. It states the vehicle must move at least its Combat Speed. Unless the vehicle has a Combat Speed of 0 or less, you cannot declare a move of 0.

The vehicle's Combat Speed is irrelevant, because the Deep Strike rules say that you count as having moved at Combat Speed. How far the vehicle actually moved is irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Please explain to me how a tank pivots while off the board in order to move onto the board and tank shock..

It can't. That's the problem.

Yet we know that tanks can in fact tank shock from reserve as it is clearly stated. So by your method how does a tank , tank shock from reserve.

I already covered that. You need to add a rule in order for it to actually work.

Looking at deep strike rules. If your deep strike would come into contact with models it looks like you'd be rolling on the mishap table and not deep striking at all.

I just want to say that I think it would be awesome if it actually worked that way. It should work that way. It "makes sense" for it to work that way. Anyone who has played Dawn of War knows it works that way.

That being said, I'm not sure if the rules allow it.

The spinnoff of this is do you have to worry about scattering onto models with a Skimmer during DS? That one I think has a better RAW argument. It clearly states in the rules to simply move a skimmer back the appropriate distance if it is "forced" to move onto friendly/enemy models, and I'm pretty sure the only way to ever force a Skimmer to do so would be via DS.

 insaniak wrote:
I already covered that. You need to add a rule in order for it to actually work.

The rules already in place here look at this order and tell me if you don't agree with it or put a order of events that disallow it.

I have a Venom in reserve w/ the required wargear (Actual Verbatim Rules are italicized)

I roll for reserves

I pick the venom

I declare it's Tank Shocking

Tank Shock from Reserve
A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.

It is now tank shocking.

I move it onto the board with deep strike because as you can see from the underlined it has to be moved onto the board after you declare it is tank shocking.

I use deep strike:

Deep Strike Rules
Mishaps:

These are negated by the following rules from Tank Shock :

A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enemy models cannot be moved through. Remember, though, that friendly models still cannot be moved through, so the Tank’s movement will be stopped if any friendly models are in the way.

If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position (it makes no difference whether the unit is Falling Back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board. Any models that cannot manage this are crushed and removed from play as casualties with no saves allowed. Crunch!

It's tank shocking so those rules apply when it is moving.

I declare it's facing per the Tank Shock rules and declare 0 , it has reached it's destination and it has moved at combat speed which meets this requirement.

Once the Tank has been ‘aimed’ and the intended distance declared, move the Tank straight forwards until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared

That's if it hits.

It it scatters onto a unit same thing.

It's a Tank Shocking Deep Striker.

Show me another sequence of events that does not follow that sequence that still allows a vehicle that is in NORMAL reserve to tank shock because the order is the same.

1. I have a normal tank in reserve
2. There is a unit at my board edge
3. I declare it is tank shocking
4. I move it on board.
5. I declare it's direction while moving it on board.

Otherwise by your logic that sequence of events does not work, but we know it does because we know that Tank shock allows you to move through Enemy units and if you end your move on top of them they have to be placed at least 1 inch away and can be tank shocked again

Hollismason wrote:
I have a Venom in reserve w/ the required wargear (Actual Verbatim Rules are italicized)

I roll for reserves

I pick the venom

I declare it's Tank Shocking

Tank Shock from Reserve
A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.

It is now tank shocking.

I move it onto the board with deep strike because as you can see from the underlined it has to be moved onto the board after you declare it is tank shocking.

You missed the step where you have to turn it to face the way that it is going to move.

Otherwise by your logic that sequence of events does not work, ...

That's correct. As I already pointed out, the rules say that a vehicle can tank shock from reserves, but give us no way within the rules to actually do so.

That's actually not the first step as has been stated I mean it's there in black and white, I dunno how you can refute the actual words without getting into a semantic argument over the actual word move.Tank Shock absolutely covers instances where you move through enemy units and enemy units you did not intend to move through as well as ending your move on top of enemy units. All of which cover those rules.The only disallowance for tank shock is it has to move in a straight line and it has to move at least combat speed up to 6 " which would in fact be 0 to 6.You're method breaks the sequence of events and goes against RAW directly by stating that the model is pivoted first, but it's not pivoted first when it tank shocks from reserve, it moves onto the board declares it's pivot and distance then proceeds. It's still tank shocking when it's declared it's always tank shocking it never stops then starts to tank shock and that fundamentally is why I think RAW it works.

There is a preponderance of evidence in my favour. I have first hand written documentation and the sequence of events layed out in written form.

You just say " It doesn't work" with actual little evidence. It's not my job to prove I can't do something, it's my job to prove that you can't say I can't do something.

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not the first step as has been stated I mean it's there in black and white, I dunno how you can refute the actual words without getting into a semantic argument over the actual word move.

The fact that it says '..., first turn the vehicle on the spot...' suggests that it kind of is the first step.

...but it's not pivoted first when it tank shocks from reserve, it moves onto the board first then follows those rules.

What are you basing that on?



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Hollismason wrote:
You just say " It doesn't work" with actual little evidence.

I'm saying it doesn't work because you're skipping the first thing that the tank shock rules tell you to do, with no rule in evidence to actually tell you to skip that step.

 insaniak wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
That's actually not the first step as has been stated I mean it's there in black and white, I dunno how you can refute the actual words without getting into a semantic argument over the actual word move.

The fact that it says '..., first turn the vehicle on the spot...' suggests that it kind of is the first step.

...but it's not pivoted first when it tank shocks from reserve, it moves onto the board first then follows those rules.

What are you basing that on?

When a unit tank shocks from reserve it has to be declared that it is tank shocking then move onto the board. The sequence of events changes if the vehicle is coming in from reserve.

A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.


Also here's the big one : There's no rule that states it has to be on the board when it pivots at all.

So yeah that's why it is actually allowed. If I have a Tank offboard on a chair and I say it's tank shocking I can physically turn that tank in the direction I want it to go in when I move onto the board. The only rule is it has to follow a straight line and distance I declare


To perform a Tank Shock, first, turn the vehicle on the spot to face the direction you intend to move it and, after pre-measuring, declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move, up to its maximum speed. The vehicle must move at least Combat Speed. Note that, because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a Tank Shock.
Once the Tank has been ‘aimed’ and the intended distance declared, move the Tank straight forwards until it comes into contact with an enemy unit or it reaches the distance declared – no other changes of direction are allowed in a Tank Shock.


No where in there does it say it has to be on the board. If I set up a tank on the edge or on a chair the only thing I have to follow is the facing and the inches moved when it moves onto the board from reserves. It simply states Pivot the model and declare the inches. Then move it.

Hollismason wrote:
When a unit tank shocks from reserve it has to be declared that it is tank shocking then move onto the board. The sequence of events changes if the vehicle is coming in from reserve.

Why?

A Tank that moves onto the battlefield from Reserve may attempt a Tank Shock. This must be declared before the Tank moves onto the board.

And? That's exactly the same as what happens when you declare a tank shock with a vehicle that is already on the board... You have to declare it before the vehicle moves.

You can't pivot something that's not on the board,

That's correct. And why I pointed out that tank shocking from reserves isn't actually possible as the rules currently stand.

...there for it has to be on the board or coming onto the board then pivots even it if is like a millimeter of it's hull.

Except that there is no rule telling you that you can do something else (in this case, move onto the board) before doing the thing that the tank shock rules tell you to do first (ie: turn the vehicle to face the direction it is intending to go).

Moving just onto the board and then pivoting would be one way to resolve it. As would 'placing' the vehicle just off the board and pointing out the direction it is going to move when it comes on. Neither of those options are actually present in the rules, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
The only rule is it has to follow a straight line and distance I declare

Unless your chair is the same height as the table, that's going to cause some problems when it comes time to actually move it.

Although I suppose it might be handy if your opponent has left some of his units on the floor.


Edit: You're also opening a big 'ol can of worms with the 'nothing says it has to be on the table' argument. There are any number of things that could be applied to. Like, say, shooting with my Ordnance Barrage from reserve... because nothing says it has to be on the table. So as long as my miniatures case is close enough to the table, they should be good to go, no?

Ignore that can't please that was a mistype and it is late.


You absolutely can pivot it before it moves onto the board. Let me go dig up the reserves rules.

Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.

This rule is that allows Flyers to come in at a angle instead of having to move onto the board straight then pivot, something that is incredibly important as if they had to pivot you would not be able to make that last turn, let me know if that clears things up.

I actually think this is in the flyers section as well.

So you absolutely can say I declare this tank is Tank Shocking from reserve, pivot it then move it onto the board which applies as well for a deep striking unit.

That's why I like you Insaniak you always are fun to go back and forth with as it pushes me to explore the rules even further.
I'm pretty sure that statement clears things up. Let me know if it doesn't.

Wait no it doesn't you actually would have to declare infinite ? This got weird fast.

This is a non argument. If you deepstrike onto a target you automatically mishap. You don't take shock anything. The mishap happens first before the movement phase even beings, which automatically causes you to leave that spot you picked. Tank shocking isn't some get out of mishap free card.

Dude, seriously read the thread. Don't just come in and be like " WHATS UP I'M TEEN DOG, I DON'T NEED YOUR RULES BRAD"

I like that each new Codex release comes with our very own set of "Hollismason digs up the broken bits" threads

I didn't make one for the Greyknight codex. I'm sure there's something broken in there but I haven't read it yet.

Hollismason wrote:
This rule is that allows Flyers to come in at a angle instead of having to move onto the board straight then pivot,

Flyers are allowed to come on at an angle because nothing says that they have to come on perpendicular to the board edge. Not because you perform an imaginary pivot just off the table. That woudl actually limit the angle at which flyers would be able to move on, rather than allowing them a free angle of entry.

So you absolutely can say I declare this tank is Tank Shocking from reserve, pivot it then move it onto the board which applies as well for a deep striking unit.

Aside from the fact that the tank is not physically placed in order to pivot it, sure. You don't pivot the tank before moving on from the board edge. You just move on as if the tank was there.


And this still doesn't help you with deep striking, because you still have to break the tank shock process in order to perform the deep strike placement.

 insaniak wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
This rule is that allows Flyers to come in at a angle instead of having to move onto the board straight then pivot,

Flyers are allowed to come on at an angle because nothing says that they have to come on perpendicular to the board edge. Not because you perform an imaginary pivot just off the table. That woudl actually limit the angle at which flyers would be able to move on, rather than allowing them a free angle of entry.

So you absolutely can say I declare this tank is Tank Shocking from reserve, pivot it then move it onto the board which applies as well for a deep striking unit.

Aside from the fact that the tank is not physically placed in order to pivot it, sure. You don't pivot the tank before moving on from the board edge. You just move on as if the tank was there.


And this still doesn't help you with deep striking, because you still have to break the tank shock process in order to perform the deep strike placement.

I just literally quoted the reserve rules that states how a vehicle moves on from reserve, it's treated as

Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.

There's also no rule that states, it has to be on the board to pivot. Otherwise by your sequence of events a tank moves always at a straight angle directly onto the board and cannot under any circumstance tank shock where as my way does allow it to adhere to the rules and doesn't BREAK any rules.

That's the key issue here, your way breaks the rules, I've shown explicitly that a vehicle can tank shock with the rules as is with no unnecessary rules.

The only rule for tank shock is it has to move at combat speed, the direction it's pivoted in and has to follow a straight line.

Also this applies to fliers as well, there is no actual rule that states you get a free pivot with a flier when moving it on from reserves at a angle, there is no special rule for flying in at a angle then pivoting, something that is incredily common

So following your logic all vehicles must first enter the battle field be on the field then Pivot and move in a direction yet we know specifically this is not the case.

Hollismason wrote:
I just literally quoted the reserve rules that states how a vehicle moves on from reserve,

Yes, you did. There was nothing in there about performing an imaginary pivot with a model that hasn't yet been placed.

You just move on from the edge as if the model was sitting just off the board. No pivoting involved.

There's also no rule that states, it has to be on the board to pivot.

More to the point, though, is that there is no way to pivot a vehicle to face the direction it wants to go if that vehicle is not yet actually 'in play'.

The facing of your models is completely irrelevant until they are actually on the board.

Otherwise by your sequence of events a tank moves always at a straight angle directly onto the board...

Please quote the rule that requires you to move on perpendicular to the board edge.

... where as my way does allow it to adhere to the rules and doesn't BREAK any rules.

Except for the one that requires you to pivot the vehicle to face the direction it is going to move.

Insaniak may I ask HYWPI, with regards to tank shock from reserve and tank shock from deep strike? Allow both? Disallow both? Allow one but not the other?

Just curious about how you would apply your rules interpretation to play.

*note I am not making a RAW argument or any other argument.

You cant ever tankshock from deepstrike, as you cannot nominate a distance in inches to mvoe (you only count as moving Combat, not any specific distance, meaning 0 is not valid) and if you actually scattered onto any unit capable of being tank shocked, you mishap before you arrive which is before you have moved at all.

Drager wrote:
Insaniak may I ask HYWPI, with regards to tank shock from reserve and tank shock from deep strike? Allow both? Disallow both? Allow one but not the other?

I would probably allow both. From regular reserves simply because the rules are quite clear that it's supposed to be allowed, and from Deep Striking just because it sounds like fun and is unlikely to be a game-breaker... Deep Striking Raiders into the middle of enemy units seems like a fairly surefire suicide technique, and Blood Angels Land Raiders are rarely seen on the table due to their flyers being so much of a better option, and I would be very surprised if their ability to Deep Strike makes it into the next codex anyway.

Insaniak - how are you resolving the deepstrike, when before the model arrives (whcih is the point at which you determine if the unit has been tank shocked; you cannot tank shock a unit if you have yet to arrive, as you havent fulfilled the requirement to actually move into the unit) any unit it "contacts" forces a mishap, which will at best result in the DS unit returning to reserves?

I am with Nosferatu1001,
Tank Shock clearly requires Movement and Resolving the Arriving via Deep Strike Sequence is not Movement in and of itself. Unlike the other Reserve Rules, which contain instructions to Move the Model as part of the process, Deep Strike simply requires the Models to be placed with a specific formation after determining if they will Mishap. I would even go as far to state that Deep Strike contains zero instructions related to Moving the Model, as it requires two clauses to create the very same effect that Movement would create by default.

These two Restrictions would not exist if the Arriving via Deep Striking process was itself Movement.

 insaniak wrote:

Drager wrote:
Insaniak may I ask HYWPI, with regards to tank shock from reserve and tank shock from deep strike? Allow both? Disallow both? Allow one but not the other?

I would probably allow both. From regular reserves simply because the rules are quite clear that it's supposed to be allowed, and from Deep Striking just because it sounds like fun and is unlikely to be a game-breaker... Deep Striking Raiders into the middle of enemy units seems like a fairly surefire suicide technique, and Blood Angels Land Raiders are rarely seen on the table due to their flyers being so much of a better option, and I would be very surprised if their ability to Deep Strike makes it into the next codex anyway.

I think this is interesting

• • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.


I gotta go to work but I kind of think this is important as you'll note that you pick the direction you wish to face. Also, the actual placement.

Another thing a Pivot is not actually required to deep strike a direction is.

No, it states you first pivot. It isnt optional.

Secondly the "it" in the first sentence is the *unit*, ie the first model placed is a marker to where you want the unt to arrive. The unit has not yet arrived - it cannot have done, otherwise this sentence is a nonsense (and would result in a unit half on, half off the board. A nonsense)

How are you getting around never being able to determine if you Tank Shock a unit, as you will always mishap first? You can NEVER tank shock a unit from DS without some way to bypass mishap, as mishap occurs first.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it states you first pivot. It isnt optional.

Then, wouldn't the game break, if the tank is already on the table, and is already "aimed right" at the intended target, as you wouldn't need to pivot?

EDIT: well... I guess you can get around that by simply pivoting a full 360 degrees.