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 jasper76 wrote:

I think if you watch the video, he is obviously a bit concerned that he has been (wrongly) called a racist, and he's appealing to liberal students not to fall for the race = religion fallacy.

And yet he reinforces that notion with his joke about Jewish women.

Anyway: You can't argue that you support the free exchange of ideas when your primary means of expressing your own is a heavily produced TV show.

 dogma wrote:

Anyway: You can't argue that you support the free exchange of ideas when your primary means of expressing your own is a heavily produced TV show.

I'm afraid you've lost me here. Why would expressing ideas through a produced TV program innately make you unsupportive of the free exchange of ideas? Don't make no sense, Jack!

 jasper76 wrote:

I'm afraid you've lost me here. Why would expressing ideas through a produced TV program innately make you unsupportive of the free exchange of ideas? Don't make no sense, Jack!

Because the producers of the show directly control not only what you express, but the manner in which you express it? Double points for control over who you have as a guest, and what they're allowed to say.

 dogma wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

I'm afraid you've lost me here. Why would expressing ideas through a produced TV program innately make you unsupportive of the free exchange of ideas? Don't make no sense, Jack!

Because the producers of the show directly control not only what you express, but the manner in which you express it? Double points for control over who you have as a guest, and what they're allowed to say.

Yeah, I guess its possible that Bill Maher doesn't have creative control over his own show, or what he says on his own show.

I don't believe it's true, but its possible.

Except guests on his show are pretty damn politically diverse and are given ample time to discuss whatever the topic may be, whether they agree with Maher or not.

But you know, it could also not be that. I guess we'll never know for sure.

Nope........... Sorry Bill, but on UC campuses....Free Speech equals anything that goes contrary to what I think.
I got in trouble for my indian costume on campus and asked to remove it by a CA. Why? Because it is offensive.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Except guests on his show are pretty damn politically diverse and are given ample time to discuss whatever the topic may be, whether they agree with Maher or not.

Political diversity does not necessarily indicate the absence of production.

Maher begins the show with far more preparation than any of his guests could possibly have, and has a whole team of producers supporting him during discussion. I know this because all talk-show hosts have these advantages over their guests. Advantages which are compounded by the panel format in which each guest has no explicit knowledge of how any other guest will act, or even which issues will be raised.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
my indian costume

Considering how obvious this one is I can't tell if you did it just to bait campus or made it up just to bait us, as I can't imagine you are this oblivious.

Finally had a moment to watch the video, what happened to Maher's face? Botched plastic surgery? At first I thought it was age, but it doesn't appear to be normal aging as it seems like a layer of plastic was put on his face. It could be the effects of some medication as well.

I guess [the video] was ok, but it still seemed like "I just wanted to come out there and give everyone a free blow job and some weed but everyone is mean to me for no reason", but then he can't not be a self involved douche.

 Ahtman wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
my indian costume

Considering how obvious this one is I can't tell if you did it just to bait campus or made it up just to bait us, as I can't imagine you are this oblivious.

It was just to be fun. All I had was face paint, a feather and a headband. And somehow Im racist and appropriating their culture.
Another buddy got called out when he had "Dia De los Muertos" skull on his face.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:


It was just to be fun. All I had was face paint, a feather and a headband. And somehow Im racist and appropriating their culture.
Another buddy got called out when he had "Dia De los Muertos" skull on his face.

You should have just worn a Patagonia and some Sperry's and gone as "White Privilege."

I am so confused by that joke

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I am so confused by that joke

Patagonia and Sperry are brands. The former involves overpriced coats, and the latter involves overpriced footwear.

 dogma wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Except guests on his show are pretty damn politically diverse and are given ample time to discuss whatever the topic may be, whether they agree with Maher or not.

Political diversity does not necessarily indicate the absence of production.

Maher begins the show with far more preparation than any of his guests could possibly have, and has a whole team of producers supporting him during discussion. I know this because all talk-show hosts have these advantages over their guests. Advantages which are compounded by the panel format in which each guest has no explicit knowledge of how any other guest will act, or even which issues will be raised.

Very well.

Maher colludes with his producers to stymie the opinions of his quests because he has so much more prep time than the many experts and professionals that are oftens guests because he doesn't support the free exchange of ideas. You know this because you expertise also extends to an intricate knowledge of not just Maher's production methods, but all political talk shows because of course it does.

Gotcha.

 dogma wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I am so confused by that joke

Patagonia and Sperry are brands. The former involves overpriced coats, and the latter involves overpriced footwear.

I don't know about anyone else, but Patagonia appears to be the new North Face in my area.

Sperry's really aren't that overpriced. Quality shoes for $80ish bucks isn't that bad.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Maher colludes with his producers to stymie the opinions of his quests because he has so much more prep time than the many experts and professionals that are oftens guests because he doesn't support the free exchange of ideas.

Why would Maher stymie the opinions of his quests? Quests can't have opinions.

Anyway, that's not the argument I made. You are deliberately putting words in my mouth. A tactic Maher uses with great frequency.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

You know this because you expertise also extends to an intricate knowledge of not just Maher's production methods, but all political talk shows because of course it does.

I made claims regarding general talk-shows in reference to Maher's show (which is more damning), and further singled out the panel format.

I never used the word "intricate", as my knowledge is based on observation and second-hand testimony.

 dogma wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

I think if you watch the video, he is obviously a bit concerned that he has been (wrongly) called a racist, and he's appealing to liberal students not to fall for the race = religion fallacy.

And yet he reinforces that notion with his joke about Jewish women.

Anyway: You can't argue that you support the free exchange of ideas when your primary means of expressing your own is a heavily produced TV show.

The difference is, there actually is a "Jewish race" or ethnicity.

Islam on the other hand is composed of a huge range of ethnicities that span the globe.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
my indian costume

Considering how obvious this one is I can't tell if you did it just to bait campus or made it up just to bait us, as I can't imagine you are this oblivious.

It was just to be fun. All I had was face paint, a feather and a headband. And somehow Im racist and appropriating their culture.

Because it was, and also a mish-mash of cultures to boot. Considering that Indians don't really dress that way either it seems more like an outsiders idea of an Indian than an actual Indian. Would you be as confused by this if you went black face? Pretending to be another ethnicity/culture isn't a costume, and made worse by doing so in a country with a history of not so nice treatment of those cultures. It isn't limited to people of color either, pretending to be from Appalachia by acting as if you are inbred and carrying a banjo isn't much better. There are a myriad of costumes that are 'fun' that aren't foolish or degrading. If you wanted to provoke people that is fine, but it seems you both picked an idiotic costume and want to be incensed when called on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The difference is, there actually is a "Jewish race" or ethnicity.

Well, not really. Semitic is shared by other groups and not just by people who practice Judiasm. There are also people who practice Judiasm who are not Semitic.

 dogma wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Maher colludes with his producers to stymie the opinions of his quests because he has so much more prep time than the many experts and professionals that are oftens guests because he doesn't support the free exchange of ideas.

Why would Maher stymie the opinions of his quests? Quests can't have opinions.

Anyway, that's not the argument I made. You are deliberately putting words in my mouth. A tactic Maher uses with great frequency.

That's it, use my typo as a deflection. You're methods are evolving.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just saying what you are implying. You know, like what you do. Fun, isn't it?

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

You know this because you expertise also extends to an intricate knowledge of not just Maher's production methods, but all political talk shows because of course it does.

I made claims regarding general talk-shows in reference to Maher's show (which is more damning), and further singled out the panel format.

I never used the word "intricate", as my knowledge is based on observation and second-hand testimony.

You implied that you have extensive knowledge of Maher's production methods. You claim that Maher begins his show with significantly more preparation than his guests (who are often experts at the topic being discussed) on top of the team of producers supporting him. Obviously, this implies that you have a far greater working knowledge of the how Real Time is produced, which of course proves your theory that Maher doesn't support the free exchange of ideas.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
You implied that you have extensive knowledge of Maher's production methods. You claim that Maher begins his show with significantly more preparation than his guests (who are often experts at the topic being discussed) on top of the team of producers supporting him. Obviously, this implies that you have a far greater working knowledge of the how Real Time is produced, which of course proves your theory that Maher doesn't support the free exchange of ideas.

If this is actually the case, I'm sure we'd all love to hear some fun stories from backstage at Real Time!

Please, delight and enthrall us with them, won't you?

 dogma wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

I'm afraid you've lost me here. Why would expressing ideas through a produced TV program innately make you unsupportive of the free exchange of ideas? Don't make no sense, Jack!

Because the producers of the show directly control not only what you express, but the manner in which you express it? Double points for control over who you have as a guest, and what they're allowed to say.

Can I get a source on this? Because at the moment, it seems like you are making a broad generalization of talk shows.

Need information. Please back it up.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just saying what you are implying. You know, like what you do. Fun, isn't it?

Yes, you are. You are using words which have clearly distinct meanings from those I chose, for what seems to be the purpose of misrepresenting my initial statement.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

You implied that you have extensive knowledge of Maher's production methods.

No I didn't. I stated that I have knowledge of the production methods used by other talk-shows and lumped Maher into that group, because he is a talk-show host. He might be special, but I doubt it.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
...which of course proves your theory that Maher doesn't support the free exchange of ideas.

I'm sure he supports it in theory.

 Ahtman wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
my indian costume

Considering how obvious this one is I can't tell if you did it just to bait campus or made it up just to bait us, as I can't imagine you are this oblivious.

It was just to be fun. All I had was face paint, a feather and a headband. And somehow Im racist and appropriating their culture.

Because it was, and also a mish-mash of cultures to boot. Considering that Indians don't really dress that way either it seems more like an outsiders idea of an Indian than an actual Indian. Would you be as confused by this if you went black face? Pretending to be another ethnicity/culture isn't a costume, and made worse by doing so in a country with a history of not so nice treatment of those cultures. It isn't limited to people of color either, pretending to be from Appalachia by acting as if you are inbred and carrying a banjo isn't much better. There are a myriad of costumes that are 'fun' that aren't foolish or degrading. If you wanted to provoke people that is fine, but it seems you both picked an idiotic costume and want to be incensed when called on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The difference is, there actually is a "Jewish race" or ethnicity.

Well, not really. Semitic is shared by other groups and not just by people who practice Judiasm. There are also people who practice Judiasm who are not Semitic.

Heh. Yeah that was more or less what I was thinking of, Semitic ethnic groups.

 dogma wrote:


Yes, you are. You are using words which have clearly distinct meanings from those I chose, for what seems to be the purpose of misrepresenting my initial statement.

No I didn't. I stated that I have knowledge of the production methods used by other talk-shows and lumped Maher into that group, because he is a talk-show host. He might be special, but I doubt it.

I'm sure he supports it in theory.

You're right, you never said that directly, but you certainly implied it, so obviously that's what you meant. You should be used to this, it's your go-to tactic in OT threads... fun, isn't it?

Also, unless you're responding using a typewriter, stop double spacing after a period.

 cincydooley wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
You implied that you have extensive knowledge of Maher's production methods. You claim that Maher begins his show with significantly more preparation than his guests (who are often experts at the topic being discussed) on top of the team of producers supporting him. Obviously, this implies that you have a far greater working knowledge of the how Real Time is produced, which of course proves your theory that Maher doesn't support the free exchange of ideas.

If this is actually the case, I'm sure we'd all love to hear some fun stories from backstage at Real Time!

Please, delight and enthrall us with them, won't you?

I will be waiting with bated breath for Dogma to elaborate on this as well.

Well, this thread has gone FUBAR. Time to delete it from my subscribed threads.

It's somewhat immaterial if Bill Maher can be said to be a paragon of free speech due to his employers and whether or whether they do not censor content.

The basic fact is that Bill Maher made the argument that liberals whitewash some of the offenses to liberal values like women's rights, rights for homosexuals, and free speech that are all too frequently displayed by Islamic culture, because liberals generally also have a competing interest in valuing multiculturism, and for this , a student falsely accused him of racism and bigotry in a petition that gained media attention.

Besides being a display of the ignorant misconception that race and religious ideas are synonyms (this would require that Islam be a genetic condition, rather than a religion/worldview), it was also an assault on free speech principles, which ironically is one of the very criticisms that Maher has against current Islamic culture.

I feel like I should clarify a bit. I think it is ridiculous that they sent you home. You are, after all, an adult and they aren't your guardian. On the other hand I do see why they thought it was a bad idea, and honestly can't see how you thought it was a good idea.

 Ahtman wrote:
I feel like I should clarify a bit. I think it is ridiculous that they sent you home. You are, after all, an adult and they aren't your guardian. On the other hand I do see why that thought it was a bad idea, and honestly can't see how you thought it was a good idea.

Yes, indeed.

 jasper76 wrote:

 dogma wrote:
So he is simultaneously dismissing things which happen online, while also granting them legitimacy by addressing them and asking college students to weigh in on the matter?

I think if you watch the video, he is obviously a bit concerned that he has been (wrongly) called a racist, and he's appealing to liberal students not to fall for the race = religion fallacy.

It's important to note here that he was indeed wrongly accused by the author of the petition of being a "blatant racist". Anyone who is familiar with Bill Maher at all knows he's not a racist. A jerk? Maybe. A douche? Perhaps. But not a racist. You have to make the unfortunate leap of logic from "Islam is a religion with some bad ideas" to "Islam is a race and that race is bad" in order to come to that conclusion.

Hopefully, things have not sunk that low with American students, and I think he's appealing to American students to show they are better than that. In what medium, I have no idea.

This is just how I interpreted his statements.

Pretty much how I felt, too.

Regardless of whether you agree with him or not I find the idea of banning speakers from universities to be both sinister and patronising to all concerned.

Aren't educational institutions supposed to be all about the free and open debate of ideas and veiw points, even those deemed to be unusual or even dangerous? How exactly is free thought promoted when certain ideas deemed 'unacceptable' are prohibited from scrutiny?

Students aren't children in need of protection from hearing unpleasant or offensive things. If those who created and signed this petition can't handle hearing what Maher has to say perhaps they should consider if they are ready for university yet.

 LuciusAR wrote:
Regardless of whether you agree with him or not I find the idea of banning speakers from universities to be both sinister and patronising to all concerned.

Aren't educational institutions supposed to be all about the free and open debate of ideas and veiw points, even those deemed to be unusual or even dangerous? How exactly is free thought promoted when certain ideas deemed 'unacceptable' are prohibited from scrutiny?

Students aren't children in need of protection from hearing unpleasant or offensive things. If those who created and signed this petition can't handle hearing what Maher has to say perhaps they should consider if they are ready for university yet.

As a policy I agree EXCEPT for commencement speeches. Those are effectively nonvolunrary events, have families who didn't consent to squat, and the commencement has all to do with the commencement speaker.

Again this would be far better if the Dean gave a short speech, the Valedictorian gave a short speech, than they moved that train down the line. You've got five thousand hands to shake - get to it!