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 hungryp wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Personally, if I start a book series HC, I want to finish it HC. Most of the time, I go SC because I start late (like graphic novels). If most people were getting HC, then partway through the editions they switch to only SC (or online order only), it'll upset people. Offer an all-or-nothing on the HCs. That's the issue that I, and a lot of others, have with this. It's flagrant disregard for the customers who care about keeping in one style. It looks poor on the shelf.

If they started HC or SC, and people were allowed to choose from the beginning, I think you'd see a lot less crushed toes.

Yeah, most people I know like their collections the same way. I guess GW can't even take care of their target audience properly.

It is rather otiose to ask us what we want after all...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
[
I was over at my local GW to preorder and in the time that it took for me to add the damn book to cart and go to checkout, the book was sold out. I probably would have ended up having to get a softcover if the manager didn't hold a copy for me out of the extremely small amount of books he was allocated. He barely got a quarter of what Mikhaila was allocated to his two stores--and that's an official GW store getting shorted on their own product.

Do you understand that if a GW store doesn't have the books because the GW HQ keeps them, then that's still profit for... GW!

And that if Mike doesn't have the books to sell, then that's... no profit to Mike?

I really don't get what you're trying to say here. Both those things are obvious and no ones said otherwise...

Unless you can actually read Kanulwen suggesting that GW's manager was worse off than Mike... When GW's manager is benefiting from the copies sold by the company in relative terms, belonging to the company making the profit and will continue to be paid a salary. Whereas Mike, as an independent retailer, gains nothing from direct only sales and loses potential revenue.

You know, basic economics... Or maybe you don't know.

No I get that, but I don't think that was Kans point. I think his point was that there's so few printed even official stores get hardly any.

So...as opposed to, I don't know, doing something rational - like printing more...they cut the supply allocated to independents (and likely to their own retail stores) in hopes that it will end up with more sales through the website.

This isn't a situation where there is a real shortage of product. The supplier (GW) has full control over how many of them they produce. If they made 2000 of the previous book and sold out within a very short time...make 2500 of this one. It is really simple stuff for a manufacturer to deal with. It would be something else entirely if there was complex manufacturing or other issues in play...but it is a book. They have the layout, they have the supplier, they just need to change a line item on their PO for the printer.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
[
I was over at my local GW to preorder and in the time that it took for me to add the damn book to cart and go to checkout, the book was sold out. I probably would have ended up having to get a softcover if the manager didn't hold a copy for me out of the extremely small amount of books he was allocated. He barely got a quarter of what Mikhaila was allocated to his two stores--and that's an official GW store getting shorted on their own product.

Do you understand that if a GW store doesn't have the books because the GW HQ keeps them, then that's still profit for... GW!

And that if Mike doesn't have the books to sell, then that's... no profit to Mike?

I really don't get what you're trying to say here. Both those things are obvious and no ones said otherwise...

Unless you can actually read Kanulwen suggesting that GW's manager was worse off than Mike... When GW's manager is benefiting from the copies sold by the company in relative terms, belonging to the company making the profit and will continue to be paid a salary. Whereas Mike, as an independent retailer, gains nothing from direct only sales and loses potential revenue.

You know, basic economics... Or maybe you don't know.

No I get that, but I don't think that was Kans point. I think his point was that there's so few printed even official stores get hardly any.

So...as opposed to, I don't know, doing something rational - like printing more...they cut the supply allocated to independents (and likely to their own retail stores) in hopes that it will end up with more sales through the website.

This isn't a situation where there is a real shortage of product. The supplier (GW) has full control over how many of them they produce. If they made 2000 of the previous book and sold out within a very short time...make 2500 of this one. It is really simple stuff for a manufacturer to deal with. It would be something else entirely if there was complex manufacturing or other issues in play...but it is a book. They have the layout, they have the supplier, they just need to change a line item on their PO for the printer.

No I agree with you... I was just saying what I assumed Kans point was, I agree they should just print more.

Gotta give it up to my FLGS, when i asked them about this they seemed pretty surprised too... Fantasy isn't big at our store but they've always fallen all over themselves to make sure me and my crew have whatever we want / need.

So they are going to hit the website on my behalf and try to order it up for me. Very classy. Seriously appreciate it.

I told them that if they can't get the 2 for me (one's a gift) that i preordered in hardback that i would understand it was not in any way their fault, and that was GW, and not to sweat it, that i appreciated them going the extra mile for me as a valued customer.

THey probably wont' be able to get it for me, but even still, the fact that the shop manager himself is going to go online and personally try to get my hardcovers for me is pretty awesome.

Now our independent trade partners have an excellent opportunity to direct customers to our fantastic direct order website!

 ImAGeek wrote:

Spoiler:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
[
I was over at my local GW to preorder and in the time that it took for me to add the damn book to cart and go to checkout, the book was sold out. I probably would have ended up having to get a softcover if the manager didn't hold a copy for me out of the extremely small amount of books he was allocated. He barely got a quarter of what Mikhaila was allocated to his two stores--and that's an official GW store getting shorted on their own product.

Do you understand that if a GW store doesn't have the books because the GW HQ keeps them, then that's still profit for... GW!

And that if Mike doesn't have the books to sell, then that's... no profit to Mike?

I really don't get what you're trying to say here. Both those things are obvious and no ones said otherwise...

Unless you can actually read Kanulwen suggesting that GW's manager was worse off than Mike... When GW's manager is benefiting from the copies sold by the company in relative terms, belonging to the company making the profit and will continue to be paid a salary. Whereas Mike, as an independent retailer, gains nothing from direct only sales and loses potential revenue.

You know, basic economics... Or maybe you don't know.

No I get that, but I don't think that was Kans point. I think his point was that there's so few printed even official stores get hardly any.

So...as opposed to, I don't know, doing something rational - like printing more...they cut the supply allocated to independents (and likely to their own retail stores) in hopes that it will end up with more sales through the website.

This isn't a situation where there is a real shortage of product. The supplier (GW) has full control over how many of them they produce. If they made 2000 of the previous book and sold out within a very short time...make 2500 of this one. It is really simple stuff for a manufacturer to deal with. It would be something else entirely if there was complex manufacturing or other issues in play...but it is a book. They have the layout, they have the supplier, they just need to change a line item on their PO for the printer.

No I agree with you... I was just saying what I assumed Kans point was, I agree they should just print more.

I get that that is his point. It is just a very, very dumb point to make. The answer to not having enough stock is not to cut off your trade partners...it is to create more stock. You know, like regular manufacturers and publishers do.

To somehow think that it is justifiable because the one before, and the one before that sold out online so fast is...asinine. We aren't dealing with a commodity that they couldn't just have more added in at a moments notice. Heck, they could even just skip shipping stuff on the slow boat from the UK to the US, have their Chinese print shop ship directly to the US and probably still have gotten them with time to spare - even if the original print order was submitted months ago.

The whole End Times methods really point to GW not having much faith at all in what they are doing, and to planning on canning the whole of it once they make their bank off this round...otherwise, you know - I have heard from several of my friends in manufacturing that it is actually a good thing to have stock on hand to actually sell to customers who want to buy it.

I was at my flgs today asking the store owner about this.
He was pretty upset and said his sales rep and the other sales rep are angry too because all the store owners are angry and it makes no sense.

What's even more ridiculous is if I want the French version of the hardback he can order that but not the English version. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Mikhaila, this is good news!
See it as an opportunity to push other systems with companies that are devoted to their customers.
And with the new Star wars movie around the corner, i think that X-wing, Imperial assault and the upcoming
Armada will do well.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Mikhaila, this is good news!
See it as an opportunity to push other systems with companies that are devoted to their customers.
And with the new Star wars movie around the corner, i think that X-wing, Imperial assault and the upcoming
Armada will do well.

No, not good news, but I understand what your trying to say. We actually do a lot already with Flames of War, Warmahordes, All quiet on the Martian Front, Historical games, and quite a few other miniature lines. Xwing sells great and we have a big group for it, you just can't get restocks right now. So we have all of this going on, plus magic, boardgame nights, and painting classes. And thats the game half of the store. Comics takes up the rest of the space. So a lot going on with non GW games and models.

but.....GW is still 15% of my business. (Down from 30% a few years ago). Just trimming it away hurts, as it isn't made up in the other lines quickly, or ever for the amount you lost. Growing those other games takes more than just disgruntled GW gamers.

Healthy game stores need to have a lot of different lines of products to appeal to lots of people. GW's still in the mix for now, because so many people still want GW models.

However, I think i'll be painting up more Martian Tripods at this weekends painting class.

It's stuff like this that make me think their huge money sink into the new website consisted of a bonfire of cash.

 mikhaila wrote:

Spoiler:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Mikhaila, this is good news!
See it as an opportunity to push other systems with companies that are devoted to their customers.
And with the new Star wars movie around the corner, i think that X-wing, Imperial assault and the upcoming
Armada will do well.

No, not good news, but I understand what your trying to say. We actually do a lot already with Flames of War, Warmahordes, All quiet on the Martian Front, Historical games, and quite a few other miniature lines. Xwing sells great and we have a big group for it, you just can't get restocks right now. So we have all of this going on, plus magic, boardgame nights, and painting classes. And thats the game half of the store. Comics takes up the rest of the space. So a lot going on with non GW games and models.

but.....GW is still 15% of my business. (Down from 30% a few years ago). Just trimming it away hurts, as it isn't made up in the other lines quickly, or ever for the amount you lost. Growing those other games takes more than just disgruntled GW gamers.

Healthy game stores need to have a lot of different lines of products to appeal to lots of people. GW's still in the mix for now, because so many people still want GW models.

However, I think i'll be painting up more Martian Tripods at this weekends painting class.

I understand the dilemma, but the way GW is treating its "business partners" it will only become less and less over the following years.
At least at the group i venture, people also play malefic, warmachine and infinity, still trying to warm them up for Bolt-action and all quiet on the western front.

Getting extra copies printed and shipped isn't quite as quick or easy as some people think, you don't just ring up the printers in China and tell them to fire up the presses for another 5000 or whatever - these are small runs of minimal value to them, they fit around the big runs. Then there is shipping. By sea.

I see mention about other companies, but they are as bad or worse when it comes to supply - Hawk currently ran out if U.cM command cards , which are essential. Fantasy Flight can't keep any expansions in stock for long so you go without or pay crazy reseller price - Falcon currently £50 plus on ebay and that's on a bad day, Wyrd have certain sets out for order for months on end...... Warlord have entire sets disappear from their site...... GW just has a more vocal internet fan base IMO.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Getting extra copies printed and shipped isn't quite as quick or easy as some people think, you don't just ring up the printers in China and tell them to fire up the presses for another 5000 or whatever - these are small runs of minimal value to them, they fit around the big runs. Then there is shipping. By sea.

I see mention about other companies, but they are as bad or worse when it comes to supply - Hawk currently ran out if U.cM command cards , which are essential. Fantasy Flight can't keep any expansions in stock for long so you go without or pay crazy reseller price - Falcon currently £50 plus on ebay and that's on a bad day, Wyrd have certain sets out for order for months on end...... Warlord have entire sets disappear from their site...... GW just has a more vocal internet fan base IMO.

Do those other companies cut their suppliers off or do they provide them with stock when available?

No, they usually apologise for and explain the delay.

The Division Of Joy wrote:

 Padre wrote:

Some of the "white knights" around here will spout anything to defend their beloved GW.

And some people on here are so incapable of reason that they dismiss any other opinion of white knighting.

It's a limited edition, so I'm suprised they were ever allowed through FLGS. The SC is there so people can play with the rules, the HC is meant to be a collectors item, why shouldn't a company keep those in house?

They are over-priced, but since you don't need a HC to play the game, noone is forcing you to buy it. However, if you want it, they GW are being clever by maximising revenue. It'll sell out, so maximise the profit and release the normal edition to all so the game isn't compromised.

If someone could have an adult debate on this without the white knight comments this place would be better.

Thank you, Division of Joy, for that unwarranted, immature attack.

I was referring to Captain Vyper's "riff-raff" comment.

I also see from your follow-up posts, and other posters points, that you appear not to have originally understood the posts and context in which I was posting.

..."incapable of reason..."? Hmmm - here's looking at you, kid.

Speaking as a FLGS owner its frustrating when you get releases like SoB: Exterminatus, but its just one of those things.

Obviously most people want the hardbacks if they can, we can get a limited quantity through the direct channel, but otherwise our intention is too just discount the softbacks offered under this sort of release model as heavily as is possible both online and in store on pre-release weekends to make the SB versions more appealing.

I know that there are lead times with printing. However, there must be small presses in the UK that could make more copies on short order. Given how much GW is charging for the books, they could still make a tidy profit.

Further, given that the first book came out in September and sold out quickly, they have had several months to order more hardbacks. They obviously did not do so. Sadly, this is GW and we have come to expect this sort of thing from them.

Well, recently I ordered Shield of Baal: Exterminatus from the website, and when I got into the store it hadn't come in yet, and the store owner offered to let me switch over to softcover and they'd keep my order when it came in.

...An offer I took enthusiastically, as why would I want to lug hardback books everywhere when I already need to haul two figure cases through public transport? Plus, mildly cheaper.

I definitely understand annoyance from people who got the Nagash and Glottkin books before it was announced softcover versions would be available and want to keep their collection all the one format. Otherwise though, quick releases for the softcover format seems like a good thing. Shame they didn't do that to begin with.

spaceelf, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the publishing industry, I'm not, but I do know a couple who are between them a published author and illustrator of childrens books.

They ran a kickstarter not so long ago and from the discussions I had with I did get a small insight, all the costs of publishing are essentially in setup, the different between 100 copies and 1000 was about £100 IIRC in the case of this couples work. Obviously they were not producing a large format full colour hardback, nor in the quantities which GW are dealing, but I would assume the scale of cost is comparable.

My point is that a small UK based print run would probably not be economically worthwhile, despite the fact there are so many people clamming for them.

Of course, by the same logic what they are doing with such limited hard back runs in the first place doesn't make sense either, but that's probably why they've outsourced the printing to China, so increasing lead times.

Will we get another run of HB, I doubt it somehow, afterall they've moved on to the next one, and increased the supply with the SC versions. So there is a supply, its just not whats preferential to everyone. I'd expect that the quantitiy available of future releases will be bigger though, much like the quantity of Deathstorm was higher then Stormclaw.

If they've increased soft cover supply, that inherently shows they can have more books printed - if they wanted to.

A bit of background on colour book printing:

No-one sane prints colour in the UK if they want any profit (except DC Thomson). It's Far East + 3 months shipping on a boat if you want best cost price. In recent years Poland and Italy can rival Far East when you factor in cheaper (and quicker) shipping.

Some big book publishers print initial runs in the Far East, then reprint in the EU for speed of decision/turnaround time (ie commit to the reprint when needed, not anticipating i 3 months out), balanced with some economy.

No matter how and where you print, you have to want to. I have in the past organised limited editions with delibrately low print runs, expressly so they sell out. 1,000 copies of Philip Pullman books was insane, but it meant we sold 3,000 x £30 in one day with zero risk. On top of this, putting them all in one place to drive traffic is an age-old tactic (which I wish I'd done more).

So GW has no resupply issues, it doesn't want to print more from the off. It wants direct sales, to move habits to buying from them, and the quantity will be forecast so it definitely sells out and they're not sat on any stock. Odd to do if they're missing out on some sales, maybe, but the logic is zero risk and a quick bung of cash.

 JohnnyHell wrote:


Odd to do if they're missing out on some sales, maybe, but the logic is zero risk and a quick bung of cash.

Exactly, which is consistent with the company being in a tight spot financially. There are longer term impacts from moves like this with GW because of the network effect impacting sales of their products. You don't want to sit on surplus stock of the rulebooks, and as a result piss off some of your customers, who don't buy/buy less miniatures and wind up playing less/not playing which negatively impacts both your marketing and the overall value of all of your products.

That's the crux of the gamble, for sure.

It could always be worse, if you haven't experienced one of Battlefront's sales or releases since Vietnam you are missing out.

Paying for product and then waiting month after month after month to actually get it.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
Getting extra copies printed and shipped isn't quite as quick or easy as some people think, you don't just ring up the printers in China and tell them to fire up the presses for another 5000 or whatever - these are small runs of minimal value to them, they fit around the big runs. Then there is shipping. By sea.

I see mention about other companies, but they are as bad or worse when it comes to supply - Hawk currently ran out if U.cM command cards , which are essential. Fantasy Flight can't keep any expansions in stock for long so you go without or pay crazy reseller price - Falcon currently £50 plus on ebay and that's on a bad day, Wyrd have certain sets out for order for months on end...... Warlord have entire sets disappear from their site...... GW just has a more vocal internet fan base IMO.

Hawk is currently a victim of their success (at least I think), the plastic starters being shipped right around the same time as the new faction created demand they weren't ready for. I'm not certain if you were trying to order direct, but I know in the US at least the primary distributor seems to chronically under order stock.

For the record, the UCM command cards are pretty weak too . There's a reason there's a movement in UCM players to keep a minimal commander and just buy more toys.

To add to the mystery....

I was told that they printed all the books at once, but also printed less of each book in the series. So book 5 will have the lowest print run.

Because no one likes to read the end of the story......

The end of the story that may lead to 9th edition? Maybe they'll have a nice fat HC edition to go along with 9th editon explaining it all.

 mikhaila wrote:
To add to the mystery....

I was told that they printed all the books at once, but also printed less of each book in the series. So book 5 will have the lowest print run.

Because no one likes to read the end of the story......

The end of the story that may lead to 9th edition? Maybe they'll have a nice fat HC edition to go along with 9th editon explaining it all.

9th edition will probably be just copy/paste of these books all together with two pages of rules that contradict each other. With the obligatory section on the HHHHHHHHobby.

 Theophony wrote:


9th edition will probably be just copy/paste of these books all together with two pages of rules that contradict each other. With the obligatory section on the HHHHHHHHobby.

You forgot that it will have an even smaller print run.

Mario wrote:

 Theophony wrote:


9th edition will probably be just copy/paste of these books all together with two pages of rules that contradict each other. With the obligatory section on the HHHHHHHHobby.

You forgot that it will have an even smaller print run.

And no-one will be supplied any, let alone enough to pass on to customers...

 Padre wrote:

Mario wrote:

 Theophony wrote:


9th edition will probably be just copy/paste of these books all together with two pages of rules that contradict each other. With the obligatory section on the HHHHHHHHobby.

You forgot that it will have an even smaller print run.

And no-one will be supplied any, let alone enough to pass on to customers...

But we will get "leaked" pictures with too much flash that were taken by someone having a seizure.