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The numbers some others seem to be dredging up are national crime statistics collected and reported by local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies.

The numbers you are presenting as proof are a Wikipedia article. You know how Wikipedia works right? Wikipedia can be fairly accurate as long as stuff is cited, but the problem is that you have to find sources to cite. Just by nature of Wikipedia, and the internet as a whole, it will be much easier to find online sources for schootings that happened post-introduction of the internet. There are some dedicated folks on Wikipedia, but I honestly doubt that they are sitting at the library going through microfilms of newspapers to update the article on school shootings.

So I, and many others, are just going to go ahead and put our faiths in the nationally reported and federally maintaned statistics about juvenile violent crime instead of relying on an internet article that relies on other internet articles as a source which happens to find more internet sources for events that happened after the internet was invented.

Even if the Wikipedia article was 100% correct, the fact that 75 more children murdered someone in a 26 year span (which is a 500% increase and not a 600% increase, so maybe you should have less confidence in your own schooling) does not negate the fact that ~3,000,000 fever children commited violent crimes during that same timespan.

Which is basically what you are arguing:

You: Stuff is worse now.
Everyone else: 3,000,000 less kids commited violent crimes in the last 25 years, so it's better.
You: But 75 more kids shot up a school, so it's worse.

It just doesn't make sense.

If you truly care about facts, here is a good starting point if you are willing to actually read and do some research:

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2014/2014042.pdf

 DarkLink wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So we now know that children shot up schools at a pretty similar rate over the past 40 years.

How does that prove that kids are worse now ever since we stopped beating them as much? Especially considering that the overall rate of childhood violent crime is decreasing decade by decade?

actually do the math and remove the ones from their list that involve 18 year olds or older doing the shooting and you will see a sharp increase, furthermore the other graph which showed kids being arrested, when most school shootings of late the kids were not arrested but killed or commited suicide, if you compare my list to the other list and they say violent crimes have reduced, you have to wonder about that.

Why are you assuming that list is comprehensive? You're also neglecting the fact that school shootings account for approximately 0.0003% of homicides (and homicides only account for about 0.006% of all deaths)*. Even if school shootings are up 600% or whatever, overall homicide rates have dropped 50%, which simply means that school shootings account for about 0.004%. Those are some pretty scary numbers, there.

*The leading causes of death in the USA, in order, are as follows: heart disease, cancer, chronic lower respiratory diseases, accidents, stroke, alzheimers, diabetes, influenza/pneumonia, nephritis/nephrotic syndrome/nephrosis, and suicide, which account for about 73.5% of all deaths.

but you missed the discussion, we are not talking about all homicides but those committed by kids, and while there is not a comprehensive list for all murders committed by kids, there is one for school shootings, and then you have the numbers, you say murders are down, and yet school shootings are up and then some, those numbers do not corroborate with each other, if murders being committed by kids was dropping it would also lead to reason school shootings committed by kids would also be dropping, but they are not, they are climbing, and increasing at an alarming rate.

Asterios wrote:

but you missed the discussion, we are not talking about all homicides but those committed by kids, and while there is not a comprehensive list for all murders committed by kids, there is one for school shootings, and then you have the numbers, you say murders are down, and yet school shootings are up and then some, those numbers do not corroborate with each other, if murders being committed by kids was dropping it would also lead to reason school shootings committed by kids would also be dropping, but they are not, they are climbing, and increasing at an alarming rate.

I'm surveying the toilets in Office Building A.
There are 100 fewer people a week pooping in Office 101.
There are 50 fewer people a week pooping in Office 102.
There are 20 more people a week pooping in Office 103.

Despite Office 103 punishing the toilets at an increasing rate, the pooping rate for Office Building A is still down.

You need to learn statistics or stop posting...

 d-usa wrote:

Asterios wrote:

but you missed the discussion, we are not talking about all homicides but those committed by kids, and while there is not a comprehensive list for all murders committed by kids, there is one for school shootings, and then you have the numbers, you say murders are down, and yet school shootings are up and then some, those numbers do not corroborate with each other, if murders being committed by kids was dropping it would also lead to reason school shootings committed by kids would also be dropping, but they are not, they are climbing, and increasing at an alarming rate.

I'm surveying the toilets in Office Building A.
There are 100 fewer people a week pooping in Office 101.
There are 50 fewer people a week pooping in Office 102.
There are 20 more people a week pooping in Office 103.

Despite Office 103 punishing the toilets at an increasing rate, the pooping rate for Office Building A is still down.

You need to learn statistics or stop posting...

I do know statistics, furthermore, as you said the reports in Wikipedia are vetted by the post scripts, furthermore you love pointing out statistics, yet fail to mention those statistics are based on reported crimes and arrests made, and don't realize the number of crimes that go unreported which are increasing with the increase of illegal immigration and their fear of law enforcement, furthermore the increase of murder/suicide incidents where there is no arrest made, and yet these are not taken into effect, I go by what I see, you say violent crime is dropping, I don't see that.

its just like the unemployment rate, everyone says its going down, when it is not, its based on those who are collecting unemployment, which does not last forever, statistics are based on what they know, not what is fact.

also since you love reading here read this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/millions-of-crimes-go-unreported/

and here:

http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/more-than-3-million-violent-crimes-in-us-go-unreported-every-year?news=844943

and here:

http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/if-violent-crime-rate-is-at-40-year-low-why-is-us-spending-s100-billion-a-year-on-police?news=844525

Violence is a tool. It happens to be a pretty serious tool with incredibly serious consequences, if it's a tool of reflex or of first resort something's gone horribly, horribly wrong somewhere along the line.

As to school shootings they get a lot of press because a morbid public is fascinated with listening to talking heads speculate about what might have driven someone they've never met to do something so drastic with absolutely no basis in fact. I don't know about the rest of you but Monte Cook hid no secret messages in my D&D books telling me to go out and shoot people. I don't see the point in dwelling on it or claiming school shootings are on the rise; what's the conclusion? What are you going to do about it? Make the government take the flourine out of the water so nobody goes crazy? Tax people into the ground to generate yet another caste of public employees that do an ineffective job because the workload is insane? Take away privately-owned guns and put us in a country where the only people who have guns are the police?

Man, they made sure that the kid was as unlikable and hittable as they could.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Man, they made sure that the kid was as unlikable and hittable as they could.

If they hadn't how would you get to air? You can get to air slapping Joffrey Baratheon, but if you can't make the kid at least that bad the 'empathy' part of the brain kicks in again and people notice that a family that's deteriorated that far is fethed up and then the show goes off air because any potential target audience thinks its barbaric.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Man, they made sure that the kid was as unlikable and hittable as they could.

that's what I told other people if they saw the show they would have been tempted to slap that kid, me I would have had him kicked out of the house before it got to that point.

Asterios wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

Asterios wrote:

but you missed the discussion, we are not talking about all homicides but those committed by kids, and while there is not a comprehensive list for all murders committed by kids, there is one for school shootings, and then you have the numbers, you say murders are down, and yet school shootings are up and then some, those numbers do not corroborate with each other, if murders being committed by kids was dropping it would also lead to reason school shootings committed by kids would also be dropping, but they are not, they are climbing, and increasing at an alarming rate.

I'm surveying the toilets in Office Building A.
There are 100 fewer people a week pooping in Office 101.
There are 50 fewer people a week pooping in Office 102.
There are 20 more people a week pooping in Office 103.

Despite Office 103 punishing the toilets at an increasing rate, the pooping rate for Office Building A is still down.

You need to learn statistics or stop posting...

I do know statistics, furthermore, as you said the reports in Wikipedia are vetted by the post scripts, furthermore you love pointing out statistics, yet fail to mention those statistics are based on reported crimes and arrests made, and don't realize the number of crimes that go unreported which are increasing with the increase of illegal immigration and their fear of law enforcement, furthermore the increase of murder/suicide incidents where there is no arrest made, and yet these are not taken into effect, I go by what I see, you say violent crime is dropping, I don't see that.

its just like the unemployment rate, everyone says its going down, when it is not, its based on those who are collecting unemployment, which does not last forever, statistics are based on what they know, not what is fact.

also since you love reading here read this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/millions-of-crimes-go-unreported/

and here:

http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/more-than-3-million-violent-crimes-in-us-go-unreported-every-year?news=844943

and here:

http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/if-violent-crime-rate-is-at-40-year-low-why-is-us-spending-s100-billion-a-year-on-police?news=844525

So the new summary is:

You: Stuff is worse.
Everybody else: No it isn't rates are going down.
You: No, my neighborhood is bad.
Everybody else: It's the lowest it has been in 2 decades after declining during that time.
You: But school shootings!
Everybody else: 3,000,000 less violent crimes.
You: But 75 more school shootings [insert random wrong statistical calculation for emphasis]
Everybody else: Here are statistics showing how wrong you are.
You: Numbers that don't exist prove me right!

Your hole is getting deeper

 d-usa wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

Asterios wrote:

but you missed the discussion, we are not talking about all homicides but those committed by kids, and while there is not a comprehensive list for all murders committed by kids, there is one for school shootings, and then you have the numbers, you say murders are down, and yet school shootings are up and then some, those numbers do not corroborate with each other, if murders being committed by kids was dropping it would also lead to reason school shootings committed by kids would also be dropping, but they are not, they are climbing, and increasing at an alarming rate.

I'm surveying the toilets in Office Building A.
There are 100 fewer people a week pooping in Office 101.
There are 50 fewer people a week pooping in Office 102.
There are 20 more people a week pooping in Office 103.

Despite Office 103 punishing the toilets at an increasing rate, the pooping rate for Office Building A is still down.

You need to learn statistics or stop posting...

I do know statistics, furthermore, as you said the reports in Wikipedia are vetted by the post scripts, furthermore you love pointing out statistics, yet fail to mention those statistics are based on reported crimes and arrests made, and don't realize the number of crimes that go unreported which are increasing with the increase of illegal immigration and their fear of law enforcement, furthermore the increase of murder/suicide incidents where there is no arrest made, and yet these are not taken into effect, I go by what I see, you say violent crime is dropping, I don't see that.

its just like the unemployment rate, everyone says its going down, when it is not, its based on those who are collecting unemployment, which does not last forever, statistics are based on what they know, not what is fact.

also since you love reading here read this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/millions-of-crimes-go-unreported/

and here:

http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/more-than-3-million-violent-crimes-in-us-go-unreported-every-year?news=844943

and here:

http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/if-violent-crime-rate-is-at-40-year-low-why-is-us-spending-s100-billion-a-year-on-police?news=844525

So the new summary is:

You: Stuff is worse.
Everybody else: No it isn't rates are going down.
You: No, my neighborhood is bad.
Everybody else: It's the lowest it has been in 2 decades after declining during that time.
You: But school shootings!
Everybody else: 3,000,000 less violent crimes.
You: But 75 more school shootings [insert random wrong statistical calculation for emphasis]
Everybody else: Here are statistics showing how wrong you are.
You: Numbers that don't exist prove me right!

Your hole is getting deeper

no as in a few years ago crime was very low or non existent in my neighborhood in the past few years it has increased, my neighbor's house was robbed by a 12 and 13 year old kids, a couple of 14-16 year olds went thru my neighborhood shooting randomly at houses, a 15 year old attacked a mother and her little child at gun point, and so on, and that's just on my block which was a nice neighborhood one time, it is going downhill rapidly, and then I see you spouting FBI statistics and wonder where they are pulling those numbers from.

in fact in 2012 Stockton had a murder rate of 1 per 8,839 residents.

here you need this shovel more then me.

also if crime is dropping why is police budgets all over increasing?

So, your town is indicative of all other places in the country?

@Asterios....

I don't care what part of the US you live in, nor what you think of immigrants, etc.

A dead body is a dead body, and I cant think of too many instances where cops ARENT called due to the presence of a cold meat bag comprised of formerly "human" components.



What I'm saying is, regardless of whether a kid shoots someone else, then themselves, or whatever, the "crime" is reported. Nobody outside of John Wayne Gacy, Jefferey Dahmer or someone of that level of crazy is going to live with a dead body. There's not hundreds to thousands of unreported dead things lying around just hoping to get noticed.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, your town is indicative of all other places in the country?

no, but why is my town different? what makes us unique? unique so much are rates are much higher then average and yet I feel much safer here then other places?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
@Asterios....

I don't care what part of the US you live in, nor what you think of immigrants, etc.

A dead body is a dead body, and I cant think of too many instances where cops ARENT called due to the presence of a cold meat bag comprised of formerly "human" components.



What I'm saying is, regardless of whether a kid shoots someone else, then themselves, or whatever, the "crime" is reported. Nobody outside of John Wayne Gacy, Jefferey Dahmer or someone of that level of crazy is going to live with a dead body. There's not hundreds to thousands of unreported dead things lying around just hoping to get noticed.

actually they are finding dead bodies quite a bit, sometimes buried in the yard and so on, so yeah there is, furthermore, its also a stated fact with several sources which state over 3 million assault crimes go unreported each year.

Please for the love of god (and I'm atheist) just take some introductory courses in Critical Thinking, Morals, Ethics, Logic and Statistics this is painful to read.

Asterios wrote:

in fact in 2012 Stockton had a murder rate of 1 per 8,839 residents.

here you need this shovel more then me.

also if crime is dropping why is police budgets all over increasing?

So Stocking is a gakhole, we get it.


1. police budgets for the most part are going down.
2. Where they are going up is usually due to a couple of things
a. increased hiring to assuage fears, as well as additional public relations
b. MRAPs are expensive as feth.




Outside of a select few areas of the US, crime IS dropping. I know it's hard to see that through your armored blinds and reinforced concrete, but it is. Places that are going to be "bad" are areas where there's a whole lot of negativity going on as a whole (Detroit and Flint, MI being prime examples), but those places aren't really indicative of the whole country any more than Stockton is.


By your logic, the entire US is being overrun with hipster d-bags, because I see them everywhere around Tacoma and Seattle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
its also a stated fact with several sources which state over 3 million assault crimes go unreported each year.

Riddle me this Batman... how the feth do you get a "concrete number" like 3 million for "unreported" crimes annually?? They are UNREPORTED!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cheesecat wrote:
Please for the love of god (and I'm atheist) just take some introductory courses in Critical Thinking, Morals, Ethics, Logic and Statistics this is painful to read.

Statistics is a painful class (I know, Im in it right now)... but this thread is making me feel good about that class

Asterios wrote:

no as in a few years ago crime was very low or non existent in my neighborhood in the past few years it has increased, my neighbor's house was robbed by a 12 and 13 year old kids, a couple of 14-16 year olds went thru my neighborhood shooting randomly at houses, a 15 year old attacked a mother and her little child at gun point, and so on, and that's just on my block which was a nice neighborhood one time, it is going downhill rapidly, and then I see you spouting FBI statistics and wonder where they are pulling those numbers from.

You're neighborhood is Office 103.

in fact in 2012 Stockton had a murder rate of 1 per 8,839 residents.

here you need this shovel more then me.

I'm in Office 101 and 102 with the rest of the guys that understand how statistics work, I don't need it.

also if crime is dropping why is police budgets all over increasing?

Apart from the "is crime dropping because police budgets are increasing" possibility, as well as crime including more than just violent crime, probably a mix of the following:

1) Inflation = more money spend on wages just to keep up.
2) Increased tax revenue = more money available to spend, so you spend it to justify taxing people.
3) Increased policing for profit = more money spend on police to make more money.
4) Increased populations and growing cities = a growth rate that is higher than the drop in crime rate still results in a net increase in the number of crimes, requiring more policing.
5) Corruption.
6) Spend it or loose it.

 d-usa wrote:

1) Inflation = more money spend on wages just to keep up.
2) Increased tax revenue = more money available to spend, so you spend it to justify taxing people.
3) Increased policing for profit = more money spend on police to make more money.
4) Increased populations and growing cities = a growth rate that is higher than the drop in crime rate still results in a net increase in the number of crimes, requiring more policing.
5) Corruption.
6) Spend it or loose it.

7) MRAPs... seriously, can't forget MRAPs. And, you know they deserve their own category

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Asterios wrote:

in fact in 2012 Stockton had a murder rate of 1 per 8,839 residents.

here you need this shovel more then me.

also if crime is dropping why is police budgets all over increasing?

So Stocking is a gakhole, we get it.


1. police budgets for the most part are going down.
2. Where they are going up is usually due to a couple of things
a. increased hiring to assuage fears, as well as additional public relations
b. MRAPs are expensive as feth.




Outside of a select few areas of the US, crime IS dropping. I know it's hard to see that through your armored blinds and reinforced concrete, but it is. Places that are going to be "bad" are areas where there's a whole lot of negativity going on as a whole (Detroit and Flint, MI being prime examples), but those places aren't really indicative of the whole country any more than Stockton is.


By your logic, the entire US is being overrun with hipster d-bags, because I see them everywhere around Tacoma and Seattle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:
its also a stated fact with several sources which state over 3 million assault crimes go unreported each year.

Riddle me this Batman... how the feth do you get a "concrete number" like 3 million for "unreported" crimes annually?? They are UNREPORTED!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cheesecat wrote:
Please for the love of god (and I'm atheist) just take some introductory courses in Critical Thinking, Morals, Ethics, Logic and Statistics this is painful to read.

Statistics is a painful class (I know, Im in it right now)... but this thread is making me feel good about that class

the 3 million is what is reported by several news agencies. furthermore the increase of police budgets is reported by the US Gov. site

and yes D-Bags are taking over the world, they are everywhere and they meet at the local Starbucks.

and I repeat statistics are only based on what is know and assumed, it is not based on facts, nobody asked me or my neighbors about the bullet holes in our houses put there by 15 year old kids, and no they were not reported since why bother, the cops won't do anything.

its like what I said about unemployment rates dropping, they only use one of the statistics for that and not the true statistic which has the unemployment rate much higher at around 22% or so according to the government site.

watching a report now how Sacramento is voting to install a shotspotter surveillance system, like we have here in Stockton. its a virus man its spreading soon the rest of the country will be messed up like Stockton.

Asterios wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, your town is indicative of all other places in the country?

no, but why is my town different? what makes us unique? unique so much are rates are much higher then average and yet I feel much safer here then other places?

.

This is a normal curve

Most of america is withing the 68% when it comes to crime, being relitively low.
Stockton is ALL the way to the right, the high end of the curve. Notice how small that 2.15% is? It is small and does not represent america.
God, I suck at statistics, an I understand this.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, your town is indicative of all other places in the country?

no, but why is my town different? what makes us unique? unique so much are rates are much higher then average and yet I feel much safer here then other places?

.

This is a normal curve

Most of america is withing the 68% when it comes to crime, being relitively low.
Stockton is ALL the way to the right, the high end of the curve. Notice how small that 2.15% is? It is small and does not represent america.
God, I suck at statistics, an I understand this.

actually the Bell Curve is very unreliable to say the least.

but everybody still ignores the fact that in the past 26 years shootings in schools committed by kids 17 or younger increased by 500% over the previous 29 years., but then that must be a fluke since statistics say crime is going down, and I repeat where?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Look at that sexy bell curve, gets my standard deviations all worked up.

Asterios wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, your town is indicative of all other places in the country?

no, but why is my town different? what makes us unique? unique so much are rates are much higher then average and yet I feel much safer here then other places?

.

This is a normal curve

Most of america is withing the 68% when it comes to crime, being relitively low.
Stockton is ALL the way to the right, the high end of the curve. Notice how small that 2.15% is? It is small and does not represent america.
God, I suck at statistics, an I understand this.

actually the Bell Curve is very unreliable to say the least.

Well, good to know, I can tell my stats teacher all his research is bunk.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, your town is indicative of all other places in the country?

no, but why is my town different? what makes us unique? unique so much are rates are much higher then average and yet I feel much safer here then other places?

.

This is a normal curve

Most of america is withing the 68% when it comes to crime, being relitively low.
Stockton is ALL the way to the right, the high end of the curve. Notice how small that 2.15% is? It is small and does not represent america.
God, I suck at statistics, an I understand this.

actually the Bell Curve is very unreliable to say the least.

Well, good to know, I can tell my stats teacher all his research is bunk.

actually a lot of schools stopped using the bell curve since it was unreliable, not sure how, but that's the story they are giving.

 d-usa wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Look at that sexy bell curve, gets my standard deviations all worked up.

It's still too early for me to be having flashbacks... but PTSD is definitely a thing (we just left the worst block of instruction: probability rules)

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Statistics is a painful class (I know, Im in it right now)... but this thread is making me feel good about that class

Totally agree I'm horrible at math, the only thing I really have a talent for is visual arts, cooking and consuming media and art, boy I'm going far in life.

Asterios wrote:

actually the Bell Curve is very unreliable to say the least.

Now you are just precious.

but everybody still ignores the fact that in the past 26 years shootings in schools committed by kids 17 or younger increased by 500% over the previous 29 years., but then that must be a fluke since statistics say crime is going down, and I repeat where?

On Friday 10 people each punch you in the face 1 time.
On Saturday 1 person punches you 6 times.

On what day were you punched more often?

Asterios wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, your town is indicative of all other places in the country?

no, but why is my town different? what makes us unique? unique so much are rates are much higher then average and yet I feel much safer here then other places?

.

This is a normal curve

Most of america is withing the 68% when it comes to crime, being relitively low.
Stockton is ALL the way to the right, the high end of the curve. Notice how small that 2.15% is? It is small and does not represent america.
God, I suck at statistics, an I understand this.

actually the Bell Curve is very unreliable to say the least.

Well, good to know, I can tell my stats teacher all his research is bunk.

actually a lot of schools stopped using the bell curve since it was unreliable, not sure how, but that's the story they are giving.

The bellcurve is still very much alive an well. But sure, continue to ignore the facts.
Screw it, there are naked women out on my lawn so im going to go look at that.

Asterios wrote:
actually a lot of schools stopped using the bell curve since it was unreliable, not sure how, but that's the story they are giving.

Can you be honest for once in this thread and just say you made that story up and you have no idea what you're talking about.

 d-usa wrote:

Asterios wrote:

actually the Bell Curve is very unreliable to say the least.

Now you are just precious.

but everybody still ignores the fact that in the past 26 years shootings in schools committed by kids 17 or younger increased by 500% over the previous 29 years., but then that must be a fluke since statistics say crime is going down, and I repeat where?

On Friday 10 people each punch you in the face 1 time.
On Saturday 1 person punches you 6 times.

On what day were you punched more often?

and yet you still ignore the facts, that shows in the past 26 years 76+ more shootings in schools were committed by kids 17 and under then in the 29 years before, and you say its the same, tell me where did you learn to count?

My god guys, have you seen what he has done? He has gotten people on dakka who normally disagree and fight to join hands.......