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Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





I'll just drop the link for the tau armybuilder here: https://mega.nz/#!oyJlHBZB!Llb4X-GnpgpkW-N_5RFQOa461hncuR9sEVtcVH01r8c

Basic features are in, slot requirements are not.

Enjoy!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 01:31:06


 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Some random musings;

Destroyer/Seeker missiles; The ideal target are going to units that are T6-8 (Not much is higher, few things are worthy at lower T) with a 2-3+ save, with weapons that would normally be firing at AP-3 / -4 and assuming to be wounding on 3's.

So we're wounding on 3's (as for 2+ to wound, you'd need Str 12-14+) and lets imagine 2+ save in cover (at best), AP-4 (very attainable) is reducing this down to a 5+ save, right? This is basically what the Destroyer/Seeker missiles are competing against.

That leads to a damage mitigation (between 44-66%... i.e. 5+ save or no save, after the 3+ to-wound).

That means, assuming to-hit roll is equal / auto-hit (97%).. for each mortal wound (which bypasses the to-wound and save / invulnerable save) equates to 2 wounds. (so 2 mortal wound = 2 dmg, 2 regular wounds, about 44-66% get through the to-wound and to-save, = x dmg, so assuming a 2dmg+ weapon)

That means.. each mortal wound (against the big toys) is equivalent to a str 7-9 AP -3 / -4 Dmg 2 hit. (Aka big gun hit) Assuming it doesn't have a invulnerable save

That means... if the target does have an invulnerable save, each mortal wound is equivalent to a *Big Gun hit x the invulnerable save chance. I.e. a 4++ would bump the dmg equivalent up to 3 dmg. The same target would take damage from 1 in every 3 regular wound, whilst 3 mortal wounds = 3 dmg.

Thoughts?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hmm.

With Sense of Stone active, you could potentially take a save and sense of stone on a character, save both, then take sense of stone again on a crisis bodyguard.
   
Made in us
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





changemod wrote:
Hmm.

With Sense of Stone active, you could potentially take a save and sense of stone on a character, save both, then take sense of stone again on a crisis bodyguard.


Sense of stone roll doesn't count as a save roll. Only Armor and Invul saves are save rolls.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm thinking the best way to make the most of a riptide is this:

Burst cannon and twin plasma, take the +1 bs and -1 rend items, give them some drone babysitters to tank lascannon shots.

 Coyote81 wrote:
changemod wrote:
Hmm.

With Sense of Stone active, you could potentially take a save and sense of stone on a character, save both, then take sense of stone again on a crisis bodyguard.


Sense of stone roll doesn't count as a save roll. Only Armor and Invul saves are save rolls.


Did you miss an and or is this a non-sequitur?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Interesting review of seeker/destroyer missiles. I'm not sure I follow or agree with all of your numbers, but your conclusion essentially puts seekers in line with hunter killers. That seems about right to me.

The real question, though, is whether they're worth it or not. Destroyer missiles are a moot point since you have to buy them along with your Stormsurge. Seekers are probably worthwhile, at first blush. That extra damage against a tough target early on can make a big difference, and now that you can shoot all your weapons all the time, they can be fired ASAP.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




MilkmanAl wrote:
Interesting review of seeker/destroyer missiles. I'm not sure I follow or agree with all of your numbers, but your conclusion essentially puts seekers in line with hunter killers. That seems about right to me.

The real question, though, is whether they're worth it or not. Destroyer missiles are a moot point since you have to buy them along with your Stormsurge. Seekers are probably worthwhile, at first blush. That extra damage against a tough target early on can make a big difference, and now that you can shoot all your weapons all the time, they can be fired ASAP.


Skyray probably isn't very good though: It's main armament can cause 6 wounds total, which is kinda wimpy even with the ability to ignore invuls.

After that you have some basic S5 shots and a Markerlight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 15:25:34


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I agree with that. The skyray got neutered. As an upgrade, the missiles seem useful but not as a main armament
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

changemod wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
Interesting review of seeker/destroyer missiles. I'm not sure I follow or agree with all of your numbers, but your conclusion essentially puts seekers in line with hunter killers. That seems about right to me.

The real question, though, is whether they're worth it or not. Destroyer missiles are a moot point since you have to buy them along with your Stormsurge. Seekers are probably worthwhile, at first blush. That extra damage against a tough target early on can make a big difference, and now that you can shoot all your weapons all the time, they can be fired ASAP.


Skyray probably isn't very good though: It's main armament can cause 6 wounds total, which is kinda wimpy even with the ability to ignore invuls.

After that you have some basic S5 shots and a Markerlight.
If only it were D3 mortal wounds (and destroyers a chunk higher), would have made all the difference!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Razerous wrote:
changemod wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
Interesting review of seeker/destroyer missiles. I'm not sure I follow or agree with all of your numbers, but your conclusion essentially puts seekers in line with hunter killers. That seems about right to me.

The real question, though, is whether they're worth it or not. Destroyer missiles are a moot point since you have to buy them along with your Stormsurge. Seekers are probably worthwhile, at first blush. That extra damage against a tough target early on can make a big difference, and now that you can shoot all your weapons all the time, they can be fired ASAP.


Skyray probably isn't very good though: It's main armament can cause 6 wounds total, which is kinda wimpy even with the ability to ignore invuls.

After that you have some basic S5 shots and a Markerlight.
If only it were D3 mortal wounds (and destroyers a chunk higher), would have made all the difference!


Eh even then, too much random to an effect with random damage like that and my eyes start to glaze over and start to look somewhere else for genuinely reliable options.

...This is going to be a fun edition for me, huh.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Consider this for a Hammerhead-based army:

Spearhead detachment:
Longstrike - railgun, 2 SMS, 2 seekers - 225
6 Hammerheads - railgun, 2 SMS, 2 seekers - 1230
3x9 Breachers - 216
2x10 Pathfinders - 160

19pts left over for whatever - 2 more Breachers, I guess?
   
Made in ie
Pete Haines





If you deploy Darkstrider in a transport with some troops (e.g. breachers), does the transport get the vanguard move? I assume not, the way it is worded.

It also strikes me, that stealth suits were one of the few Tau units to get a straight buff. Same price, better stats.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 19:18:25


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





They lost Jump-Shoot-Jump. Too early to call if they really lost durability in a general sense, as their guns require them to get into AND stay in a moderately fast infantry's charge range, which is an unhealthy range to be in when there are very fast moving and charging.

Being able to "allocate" wounds at will to nearby drones of all types is a whole other ball of wax, and the drones all have their uses. ML, Gun and Shield Drones are both ablative wounds, with the ML not losing accuracy on the move (and buffable to decent accuracy), Gun drone laying out potentially immense and frankly mindboggling firepower (albeit always at the closest target - your other units might have to "clear a path" for the Drone's targeting systems!), and Shield Drones capable of soaking up a surprising amount of firepower for their points. That's where the Tau battlesuit's durability is going to have to lie, because almost all the suits went up in price, and they're going to need a cozy blanket of drone protection (and maybe a hefty helping of Drone firepower) to do what they need to do.

Sniper Drones still seem like garbage to me, and I'm struggling to figure out where they could ever fit in terms of actually... serving some sort of function. 1-2 pulse shots with only-decent-if-very-buffed accuracy for that many points just doesn't seem like it'll ever actually kill more than the weediest subcommander hero.

But I've yet to really do the math on it, so maybe? Are they actually accurately pointed for their effectiveness? We basically got slightly longer ranged S5 weapons instead of Mortal Wound on a 6 to wound (or was it hit?) that all the other snipers got, and I'm curious if anyone has run the numbers to see if the only remotely cheap Heavy Support option in the T'au Empire arsenal is worth its points.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm curious if anyone has run the numbers to see if the only remotely cheap Heavy Support option in the T'au Empire arsenal is worth its points.
I'd be quite surprised if it was. The advent of 8pt, 4 shot Gun Drones has made flooding things with S5 firepower easier than ever, so the ability to pick out a character with more of the same is unremarkable. There's no AP, so many (or most) characters will get an impressive save against your sniper drones. Even in this era of two billion point Riptides, we can do far better.
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Pathfinders - check
Pulse Accelorator Drone - Check
Mark'O (3 MP, drone controller) - Check

Ball of Marker Droners, Gun Droners, etc. - Check

Each gun drone will be hitting on 4's, 4 shots at 24" range with an 8" movement. Re-rolling 1's isn't far fetched, either!

25pts on pathfinders, another 8pts on the PAD, plus pathfinder wargear.

===

Also, compare a commander with 3 missile pods (add in ATS for additional -1AP or a shield) and compare that in points and damage output to a Broadside.

A single XV88 costs (a bunch?) more, hits 1/2 it's 8 str7 shots and 1/2 it's 8 str 5 shots (/ other secondary weapon instead).

Final thought of the day - 3 man XV8 Crisis suit squads, 9 flamers. Approx 200pts. Deepstrike...

... Must deploy 9" you say, so out of range; can you advance and then flame? Is there a penalty/restriction... do 3 markerlights negate that penalty (I'm honestly not sure) because if it works; 9D6 str4 shots is really reasonable/reliable. Just some musings

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





On the one hand, unfortunately the Pulse Accelerator only boosts units with the Infantry keyword, which the drones unfortunately lack.

On the other hand, sneak a peak at that Cadre Fireblade's Volley Fire, which only requires that "Models in <Sept> units within..." a certain range "...may fire an extra shot with ... pulse carbines" when shooting within half range.

The rules seem ambiguous to me, but worst case scenario, you've just boosted your fire-warror's-points of gun drone's shot count by 1. And if we got an extra shot with EACH pulse carbine, add another shot on, giving our Drones the potential to have 5 or 6 roughly 75% accurate Pulse shots per fire-warrior's-points of Gun Drone.

The real puzzle will be dismantling or moving around whatever your opponent tries to put in front to soak up the immense hail of pulse fire possible.
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Sniper Drone




BertBert wrote:
I'll just drop the link for the tau armybuilder here: https://mega.nz/#!oyJlHBZB!Llb4X-GnpgpkW-N_5RFQOa461hncuR9sEVtcVH01r8c

Basic features are in, slot requirements are not.

Enjoy!


Hmm - was going to add it to the op, but the link says File Not Available. I've not used the site before - is it limited by country?
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
They lost Jump-Shoot-Jump.


Source for this?

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Sniper Drone




 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Unusual Suspect wrote:
They lost Jump-Shoot-Jump.


Source for this?

I think it's more that it doesn't appear anywhere. Coupled with the intentional ignoring of multiple queries on the Facebook Tau focus.

I feared its loss way before the rules leaked. First, trying to speed the game up isn't helped by having an army where half the models (exaggeration) get to move twice, in particular spending potentially ages trying to hide them. Second, although it was an awesome idea (my favourite thing about the army tbh), there is a strong argument that it suits the lightning fast Eldar even more than the Tau, so if they were to reintroduce it at a later date I suspect that's where we might see it.

We can hope, but I'm pretty resigned to losing it now.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

xerxeshavelock wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Unusual Suspect wrote:
They lost Jump-Shoot-Jump.


Source for this?

I think it's more that it doesn't appear anywhere. Coupled with the intentional ignoring of multiple queries on the Facebook Tau focus.

I feared its loss way before the rules leaked. First, trying to speed the game up isn't helped by having an army where half the models (exaggeration) get to move twice, in particular spending potentially ages trying to hide them. Second, although it was an awesome idea (my favourite thing about the army tbh), there is a strong argument that it suits the lightning fast Eldar even more than the Tau, so if they were to reintroduce it at a later date I suspect that's where we might see it.

We can hope, but I'm pretty resigned to losing it now.


All our Jet Pack units have a Jet Pack keyword which, so far, has not been seen anywhere in leaks. Unless GW is putting in keywords with no function, that will do something and JSJ is the most likely candidate for what that will be.

I highly doubt that GW is going to remove a facet of the army which is iconic and has been a part of the army since its very inception in 3rd edition.

As for units moving twice, there is already that in the game in the form of psychic powers repositioning units.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's also a hard rule to balance. The Tau already have a lot of ability to defeat assaults via firepower, and almost all their suits have fly and so can unengage and still shoot, so giving them an extra move would make it simply too hard for assault armies to get to them.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





xerxeshavelock wrote:
BertBert wrote:
I'll just drop the link for the tau armybuilder here: https://mega.nz/#!oyJlHBZB!Llb4X-GnpgpkW-N_5RFQOa461hncuR9sEVtcVH01r8c

Basic features are in, slot requirements are not.

Enjoy!


Hmm - was going to add it to the op, but the link says File Not Available. I've not used the site before - is it limited by country?


The link has been replaced by a new one. This topic will be updated regularly: http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=25576
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




stratigo wrote:
It's also a hard rule to balance. The Tau already have a lot of ability to defeat assaults via firepower, and almost all their suits have fly and so can unengage and still shoot, so giving them an extra move would make it simply too hard for assault armies to get to them.


But this is the problem. Tau as they stand now are increasingly more about unloading loads of dakka to the enemy, instead of working clever and flexibly.
Shoot smart, not hard. That's what the Tau should be about.

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





Backfire wrote:
stratigo wrote:
It's also a hard rule to balance. The Tau already have a lot of ability to defeat assaults via firepower, and almost all their suits have fly and so can unengage and still shoot, so giving them an extra move would make it simply too hard for assault armies to get to them.


But this is the problem. Tau as they stand now are increasingly more about unloading loads of dakka to the enemy, instead of working clever and flexibly.
Shoot smart, not hard. That's what the Tau should be about.


I'd argue that with the new rules there is much more room for playing cleverly, at least compared to how things went in7th.

- Making good use of transports, not being able to disembark after moving
- calling Mont'ka and Kauyon at the right place and the right time
- absorb charging enemies with chaff to expose them to our shooting in the following turn
- using our weaker markerlights efficiently in terms of target priority and shooting sequence
- managing distance and line of sight for our now independent support drones


The new tau seem to be all about creating just the right circumstances in which everything comes together and I'm pretty confident that there is a lot of depth to be explored here. Certainly more than with the "Get everyting into CC as fast as possible"-kind of armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 11:43:13


 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
On the one hand, unfortunately the Pulse Accelerator only boosts units with the Infantry keyword, which the drones unfortunately lack.

On the other hand, sneak a peak at that Cadre Fireblade's Volley Fire, which only requires that "Models in <Sept> units within..." a certain range "...may fire an extra shot with ... pulse carbines" when shooting within half range.

The rules seem ambiguous to me, but worst case scenario, you've just boosted your fire-warror's-points of gun drone's shot count by 1. And if we got an extra shot with EACH pulse carbine, add another shot on, giving our Drones the potential to have 5 or 6 roughly 75% accurate Pulse shots per fire-warrior's-points of Gun Drone.

The real puzzle will be dismantling or moving around whatever your opponent tries to put in front to soak up the immense hail of pulse fire possible.
I honestly looked for that but missed it, as I discounted the first line as it was just the title all in bold.. but thanks & good shout!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Backfire wrote:
stratigo wrote:
It's also a hard rule to balance. The Tau already have a lot of ability to defeat assaults via firepower, and almost all their suits have fly and so can unengage and still shoot, so giving them an extra move would make it simply too hard for assault armies to get to them.


But this is the problem. Tau as they stand now are increasingly more about unloading loads of dakka to the enemy, instead of working clever and flexibly.
Shoot smart, not hard. That's what the Tau should be about.


I dunno if you've played 7th edition, but let me tell you, the Tau basically was a bunch of gundams unleashing torrents of firepower. There wasn't much a difference between shoot smart/shoot hard. It was just "We have the best shooting, so we shoot". Married to a farseer making them invisible for the cheesers out there, but even a pure tau list was not too dissimilar.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





To those holding out for the hope of JSJ's return, I can sympathize but I think pulling the bandaid off now is the better choice.

Keywords do nothing except what the rules allow them to do. We've seen the page in the index for army-wide rules, and there is nothing to be found regarding JSJ.

Keywords are not all about benefits, nor about penalties - they're about distinguishing between classes of units. Some unit abilities, perhaps enemies or perhaps friends, will undoubtedly interact with Jump Pack and Jet Pack key words.

But seriously, clinging to JSJ because "we just haven't seen all the rules yet" is simply untrue (we HAVE seen all the rules, and JSJ ain't there) and presuming the keyword has a universal benefit would actually be extremely RARE for a keyword - aside from Fly, they tend to interact with other bespoke rules for classification purposes (if your target is a Vehicle, deals 1d3 Mortal Wounds to Infantry, etc.) rather than grant benefits all their own.
   
Made in br
Loyal Necron Lychguard




Lisbon, Portugal

stratigo wrote:
Married to a farseer making them invisible for the cheesers out there, but even a pure tau list was not too dissimilar.


That was in 6th. We had no BBs in 7th

AI & BFG:
40k:
SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in de
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Germany

I think the Tau spirit is still there - synergy between units.

and there are some pretty cool combinations possible!


Dronecontroller Stacking
All auras can be stacked!
3 Crisis suits with Dronecontrollers make Drones in 6'' BF 2+ - for 15 points total!
Add an Ethereal and you have twin linked bf 2+ marker drones. easy to get those 5 hits I'd say.

Tidewall Droneport + Commander
--> probably cheaper BS 2 Marker drones, but also only 4 of them.

Homing Beacons are evil!
Remember how you can only Mantastrike up to 9'' to an enemy unit?
Well, just get a unit of Stealth Suits in there and put down a homing beacon.
The beacon has to be 9'' away from any enemy model aswell, but instead of Manta Striking you can make a low altitude drop, allowing you to place the models within 6'' of the homing beacon.
That can be up to 3'' of enemy units - 9 Flamers I hear you say? (Beacon 9'' away, 6'' bubble --> 3'' distance)

Manta Strike + Kauyon
It nowhere says, that models that entered via Manta Strike count as having moved. It just happens at the end of your movement phase.
Add a Commander to your Mantastriking Crisis suits and let them unleash twin linked hell!
BTW: I think you can Mantastrike into melter range, since 9 '' is all you need for the effect to take place. That makes a great unit to get rid of some nasty tanks/monstrous creatures

XV88 + Kauyon
This has to be truly nasty, effectively doubling the dmg output of our broadsides compared to 7th edition.

Skyrays suck, end of story.
But they are ugly, so it's a good thing we won't see them anymore!


See, there are so many great new things the Tau can play with.
We are still very mobile and can deliver a deadly punch.
Drones got very good with double the shots compared to 7th and offer great protection!




Edit:
IMHO there will be no SJS, because of the wording of the Riptides Nova reactor. Compare it to 7th.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/05 14:48:52


 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator





 Unusual Suspect wrote:
To those holding out for the hope of JSJ's return, I can sympathize but I think pulling the bandaid off now is the better choice.

Keywords do nothing except what the rules allow them to do. We've seen the page in the index for army-wide rules, and there is nothing to be found regarding JSJ.

Keywords are not all about benefits, nor about penalties - they're about distinguishing between classes of units. Some unit abilities, perhaps enemies or perhaps friends, will undoubtedly interact with Jump Pack and Jet Pack key words.

But seriously, clinging to JSJ because "we just haven't seen all the rules yet" is simply untrue (we HAVE seen all the rules, and JSJ ain't there) and presuming the keyword has a universal benefit would actually be extremely RARE for a keyword - aside from Fly, they tend to interact with other bespoke rules for classification purposes (if your target is a Vehicle, deals 1d3 Mortal Wounds to Infantry, etc.) rather than grant benefits all their own.


This.

Keywords are not the new USRs. They are nothing more than words that describe a unit for the purpose of serving as a shorthand when referenced in rules. Keywords themselves have no meaning, no special rules attached to them. For example, Crisis Suits have the "Battlesuit" keyword. Battlesuit itself means nothing in 8th, however it is referenced in relation to special rules and bespoken rules to describe how units with the keyword react with those rules (IE the Devilfish transporting rule states that it cannot transport units with the Battlesuit keyword, rather than Battlesuit having a definition or rule stating it cannot ride in a Devilfish).

Jet Pack, in and of itself, means nothing. It doesn't mean that JSJ is gonna still be a thing. It simply means that those units can be described as having a jet pack and at some point in the future GW can put out an army rule or bespoken rule that affects those models that have that keyword.

Mobile Assault Cadre: 9,500 points (3,200 points fully painted)

Genestealer Cult 1228 points


849 points/ 15 SWC 
   
 
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