Claustrophobia 1643 Kickstarter by Monolith

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**JohnHwangDD**

ced1106 wrote:
> What makes this one "great"?

Here ya go! : https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36932/claustrophobia/forums/63

OK, but the top result for "Why I got rid of Claustrophobia" isn't really selling me on the game.

FWIW, I played a lot of Super Dungeon Explore as an asymmetrical 1v1 game (it's labeled as a 1vM game, but plays considerably better "heads up" 1v1).

The real issue is that my group wasn't excited over it

**Monkeysloth**

Ya, it's not a dungeon crawler. It's more like one player is hunting the other and actually trying to prevent you from beating a scenario unlike games like Decent and Conan which are more RPG boargames that is easier for one side to win then the other.

You do have tiles that are randomly drawn but that's really the only crawler aspect as it's more of a skirmish game where one player has a fixed unit size and the other can summon in more and more, but very week, units who's board layout is random and need to be explored.

**JohnHwangDD**

I'm not understanding how this isn't a dungeon crawler.

What, specifically, makes this not a dungeon crawler? Is it that it's a 1v1 game? Are there no co-op dungeon crawlers?

**ced1106**

> Is it that it's a 1v1 game?

That's pretty much it. It's more like Song of Gold and Darkness, Frostgrave, or Space Hulk than HeroQuest or (gasp) Dungeons and Dragons. (:

Before Descent, it was clearer. The dungoenmaster was not an adversary or opponent. He was an administrator or benevolent dictator. The players usually played one character each.

Descent brought in the concept that the Overlord was an active opponent. The game mechanics changed to make the game fair with Conquest tokens that the Overlord spent as a resource and made decisions. He actually had choices, unlike, say, HeroQuest who told the dungeonmaster where to put which miniature.

fwiw, Zombicide quietly removed the convention of "one player, one character", since its scenarios are designed for six characters.

If you haven't played Dungeons and Dragons, yeah, the line between dungeoncrawler and skirmish game may not be clear.

**JohnHwangDD**

Oh, I'm pretty clear on the conceptual distinction between "dungeon crawler" and "skirmish game". Coming from someone who played 1E D&D, it seems to me that you provide a very unsatisfying and inaccurate description of a "dungeon crawler".

A dungeon crawler is:
* smallish party of high-detail heroes
* massed enemies, culminating in a boss fight
* randomized/arbitrary dungeon

Descent is irrelevant, as even back in 1E, a "Killer DM" could be a ruthless adversary limited only by the rules that generate an encounter.

Back in 1E, players could certainly play multiple characters, especially henchmen.

The number of players and the degree to which the DM opposes the players, and/or is automated, is not what defines a dungeon crawler.

At its core, Zombicide is definitely a dungeon crawler. Same with Space Hulk and the D&D games.

A "skirmish game", that's generally terminology for a small wargame where each figure represents 1 thing, for a 1:1 figure:thing ratio (unlike strategy games where a figure or block might represent 100s or 1000s).

Frostgrave is a skirmish game, like Infinity, Malifaux and Warhammer 40,000.

**Monkeysloth**

For me a dungeon crawler is:
* smallish party of high-detail heroes
* massed enemies, culminating in a boss fight
* randomized/arbitrary dungeon
* "heroes" replenish supplies or become more powerful via found items or leveling.
* Not 1v1 (at least by design) or allow for more the one hero.

So psudo RPGs. If it doesn't have those last two it's a wargame.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Dungeons have to be underground,

and for that real classic feel have at least one huge monster in a room it could not possibly get to given the entrance tunnels provided

**JohnHwangDD**

Monkeysloth wrote:
* Not 1v1 (at least by design) or allow for more the one hero.

So psudo RPGs. If it doesn't have those last two it's a wargame.

I agree that the heroes should power-up by found gear and/or "levels", which I probably should have specified.

I still disagree with the 1v1 exclusion, though.
____

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Dungeons have to be underground,

and for that real classic feel have at least one huge monster in a room it could not possibly get to given the entrance tunnels provided

Why can't the "dungeon" be the interior of a large building, a winding town, or HUUUGE spaceship?

The huge monster might have been brought in as a larva or baby, and fed and grown to monstrous proportions.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

You can certainly crawl other locations, even outside, but a dungeon crawl (for me) needs an underground dungeon

**ced1106**

> Oh, I'm pretty clear on the conceptual distinction between "dungeon crawler" and "skirmish game". Coming from someone who played 1E D&D, it seems to me that you provide a very unsatisfying and inaccurate description of a "dungeon crawler".

I don't care. Buy whatever game you want.

**Col Hammer**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
You can certainly crawl other locations, even outside, but a dungeon crawl (for me) needs an underground dungeon

I think that is a needlessly restrictive description to the game type.

Then we would have to use way too many other terms to describe game types like "Space ship crawl", "Cavern crawl", "Mansion crawl", "Secret laboratory crawl" and so on, and so forth, and what have you...

To me, the term Dungeon crawl just implies exploration of unknown territory (either randomly generated rooms or at least randomly generated contents of the rooms). Where the game takes place is not that important to the term. It can be a dungeon or it can be something entirely different.

EDIT: This game has that exploration aspect, so I would term it as Dungeon crawl. GW's Blackstone fortress also has the exploration aspect, so I would call it also a Dungeon crawl (even when the dungeon is in fact a space station).

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

Greetings Faithful Backers,

Many of you are curious about the specific changes we’ve made with this new version of Claustrophobia. How does this 1643 version differ? Let’s take a deep dive into the dark and shed a little light, shall we?

“Hell yes!” you say? Your pun did not go unnoticed. Great job! Now, let’s go!

Evolution of the Game System

Croc and Laurent Pouchain started working on the changes to the game system in the spring of 2017. From the start, we weren’t trying to compromise or sabotage what worked well with Claustrophobia. Rather, we wanted to adjust or correct any issues we spotted, with hindsight, over the past 10 years. The reflection focused on the following points:
• Would it be possible to add a little more control in Claustrophobia? if so, would it make the game better?
•What could be improved, polished or removed?

If you have already played Claustrophobia, you know the importance of control and that it is possible to build a medium or long term strategy in the game. If you are new to the game, you will also notice that chance (dice, tiles, cards), in part, affects the outcome of the game. Adding a little more control helps guide players in a direction that may not seem natural at first. Building a strategy for several turns, and being able to adapt to random draws, offers then more control.

Offering more control has another advantage. We found with the previous version, sometimes, being the human player got a bit…bleak. There were times when it seemed hopeless and that giving up was the best option. Of course, Claustrophobia is a survival game in which the human player starts at the height of their power. But this power declines throughout the game and the human player will have to manage this decline in order to secure victory. There is nothing more frustrating than seeing a game of Claustrophobia abandoned before the end because the human player gives up after losing half of their team. This is especially tragic because this is the time when the game often generates the most fun and tension.

On the infernal player side, the test games showed a tendency to repeat the same action sequences and the same patterns of playing and attacks. We wondered, how can we encourage them to better use the tools at their disposal to vary their game sequences? Croc and Laurent explored many ideas. They came to realize that the heart/core of the game works very well and that it is difficult to maintain this balance between simplicity and effectiveness. The changes they made were therefore minimal in order to keep what works.

The Game of the Human Player

Simplification of the Benefits Card Effects

Some cards, which were objects or effects, were too complicated and slowed down the game or generated misunderstandings. Upon reflection, these cards have been simplified to remove ambiguity and to focus on the features’ boosts or the uses of talents and gifts. The idea is that the player spends less time understanding what the cards are for and more time actually using them.

A New Use For Advantage Cards

These cards now allow you to change the value of an activation die. In a difficult situation, this allows the human player to make sure that a fighter is activated.

Instinct Card

In fact, we’ve done away with the title and advantage cards have become instinct cards. The human player can draw them during the game by assigning certain values to the condemned warriors. They must decide how best to use of these fighters. In the short term, the human player will want to exploit assets such as speed, strength or defense. But they will also want to think ahead and build a stack of cards allowing them to better adapt to future events and situations.

Each fighter can only benefit from a single instinct card per turn. The human player must choose whether to use the card for its effect or to change the value of an activation die. This provides additional control and options, and the player is encouraged to strategize by planning ahead for future turns.

The Infernal Player's Game

Originally, the board of destiny offered 10 actions to the infernal player. They were, more or less, complex and useful depending on the circumstances. But we discovered some were used much more than others.

The idea was, therefore, to simplify these options so that players would spend time thinking about how best to plan out their actions rather than understanding how they work in the current situation on the gaming table. Though they spent a lot of time deciding, eventually, players ended up just doing the same thing too often.

Turn-based Programming: "The calm before the storm"

The 1st action allows you to use a die during one turn to throw an extra die on the following turn. We are with a turn alternation with 2 dice then 4 dice for the infernal player, which goes in the direction of a repetition of the game patterns. This action has been replaced with the possibility of holding back a die on an action one for a next turn to build a medium-term strategy.

Dice of Destiny & Board of Destiny

The remaining actions on the board are divided into 2 categories: those that use combinations of odd or even dice, and those that require sums to reach from 7 to 12+. The dice have been modified as follows:
• The notion of even/odd has been replaced by a simpler color to be understood at a glance.
•The maximum value of the dice was reduced from 6 to 3

Actions considered "less useful" have been removed from the board of destiny. We ended up with a board with only 6 actions and dice optimized for the programming of the board. The goal was to make it easier for the infernal player to focus on their strategy.

Specialized Demons

Each demon now has an action like the ones on the board of destiny. This allows you to specialize the board according to the demons used.

New Possibilities

Going from 10 to 6 actions on the board of destiny might, at least initially, suggest a decrease in game possibilities. In practice, though, the mechanics behind "The calm before the storm" are directly integrated into the game system and the removed actions are replaced by actions on the demons trays. Instead of "generic" actions that were not used in some of the scenarios, we end up with specific actions created by the game designers, which are easier to trigger and to use.

The result? The infernal player’s board of destiny now has the equivalent of 8 or 9 actions (depending on the number of demons in the scenario) which are easier to implement and more effective.

Greetings Faithful Backers,

As you know, we announced well in advance of the campaign just how many copies of the game would be available at each hub. We wanted to allow people time to prepare for launch so they would be able to secure their copy. However, it seems that we underestimated demand for our hubs in Asia and Oceania.

Now, we were very hesitant to reallocate supplies destined from one hub to another, but after so many reached out to us and some reflection within the team, we have decided to remove 300 units from our North American hub and add 200 to Oceania and 100 hundred to Asia. We did not want to go back on the numbers we promised to each hub, but since there seems to be more than an adequate supply at our North American hub, and so many who still want this game who are relying on our hubs in Asia and Oceania, we think this is the right thing to do. Our North American backers have had a few days to jump in, so we don’t feel that removing 300 hundred units at this point is unfair to them.

The fact is, we definitely over-estimated demand in North America, so we feel it’s best to open these up to those clamoring for them. Claustrophobia, you see, is a popular/famous board game in Europe. It would seem it is a little less so in North America, which perhaps explains the different rate of sales between North American and Europe. Again, this is new approach for us and a unique campaign. Thanks for coming along with us and all your positive encouragement.

We hope this helps those who want to secure a game to do so. Thanks for all your feedback. The new supplies should be showing up in the pledges in approximately two hours. We can’t give you the precise time, but two hours’ from this update is our aim.

so the remaining stock of 1900 for the USA, 560 for Europe, 0 for Autralasia and 0 for Asia will become

1600 for the USA, 560 for Europe, 200 for Australasia and 100 for Asia

so if you've been thinking of backing check the numbers and don't miss your slot (unless you're in the USA then you look as if you'll be able to back up to the last day)

**Monkeysloth**

Not selling as quickly in the US so it's smart to move that product elsewhere.

**frankelee**

Well my prediction for when they'd sell out is a bust. Actually at this rate they're going to have a few hundred copies left over.

Campaign has very sexy graphic design, but not very sexy models. Also what happened to that "expansive" feeling to designing a game and advertising. I get that it's "Claustrophobia" but their video is a little room tile with a just a few models on it, being played in a black void. I remember HeroQuest had a cover with everybody fighting and the commercial was a bunch of kids playing game in a room that looked like it was in a dungeon too. It was like aspirational-level fun they were selling.

Also a shame it was a little delayed, having this arrive in December would be like a nice little Christmas present for yourself. As far as that goes, I wonder if they're getting much credit from potential buyers for having that short turnaround, which really is the justification for pricing it more like a standard direct-release board game. Maybe we've become a bit accustomed to the wait to mind as much, or maybe the short turnaround is still too long, having to wait two months for a game is still a lot longer than two days on Amazon for comparable value.

**JohnHwangDD**

Monkeysloth wrote:
Not selling as quickly in the US so it's smart to move that product elsewhere.

Indeed. Thing is, in the US, we'rv become somewhat spoilt for choice for overproduced games, where 30-odd plastic minis isn't that compelling for $100 shipped when you have CMoN tossing nearly twice as much plastic at the backer for the same money. Granted CMoN's cardboard isn't as pretty, but you need more minis for the American dollars! Plus CMoN builds much better marketing hype, where this sort of straight presale doesn't have any of that "excitement".

And then there's timing. Within Kickstarter, they're going head to head with CMoN's Project: Elite (crossing Sedition Wars 2 / Zombicide: Invader). On top of that, you've got people like me anticipating a Kingdom Death Black Friday sale. And then there's general X-mas spend.

Failing to launch 3 months ago for guaranteed Xmas delivery was a huge failure.

___

As far as visuals go, this is the all time gold standard:

Nothing like having a 4'x6' dining room table for gaming!

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

1083 for USA
533 for Europe
86 for Oceania
135 for Asia
170 for Latin America

5 days to go

**JohnHwangDD**

Only 8,000 / 10,000 sold with *plenty* available in the US!

I wonder if they're still going to pull the trigger on a 2nd printing.

**AegisGrimm**

As I'm not seeing the info anywhere, does anyone know how many scenarios this version comes with?

I have the original (plus the Furor Sanguinus expansion) and part of the reason the original is popular is that tons of online scenarios were published beyond the rather bland original six.

**frankelee**

It's going backwards now. I guess you can't do away with the speculative pledges even on a fixed campaign where nothing changes.

**JohnHwangDD**

There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.

However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.

**Mugaaz**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.

However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.

I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.

**Monkeysloth**

That's also odd as the game's been out for a long time, there's very little changed in regard to rules and the original can be found pretty cheap still so it's not a mystery how the game will play.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

It could just be the natural churn of backers leaving without new people replacing them as the offering isn't improving in value

odds are a bunch will not even have read the bit that it's all done & paid for and almost ready to ship and will just be treating it as a.n.other kickstarter

**JohnHwangDD**

Mugaaz wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.

However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.

I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.

Not so. I own
* Sedition Wars, which cratered almost immediately.
* a smattering of Relic Knights, which I was lucky to part out and unload immediately after the first play.
* World of Smog: Rise of Moloch, which I cannot sell for what I paid

So don't say nonsense like that when it isn't true.

**Mugaaz**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Mugaaz wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.

However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.

I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.

Not so. I own
* Sedition Wars, which cratered almost immediately.
* a smattering of Relic Knights, which I was lucky to part out and unload immediately after the first play.
* World of Smog: Rise of Moloch, which I cannot sell for what I paid

So don't say nonsense like that when it isn't true.

Theres tons of other examples to the contrary.

**JohnHwangDD**

Mugaaz wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Mugaaz wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.

However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.

I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.

Not so. I own
* Sedition Wars, which cratered almost immediately.
* a smattering of Relic Knights, which I was lucky to part out and unload immediately after the first play.
* World of Smog: Rise of Moloch, which I cannot sell for what I paid

So don't say nonsense like that when it isn't true.

Theres tons of other examples to the contrary.

Perhaps, but you said "almost all", and that is NOT true.

This game will almost certainly NOT be something that flips up. It'll be a half price clearance item, at best. Huge stock far in excess of demand, and a poor value proposition in terms of minis / $$$. And that is why it's shedding backers like crazy:

**PsychoticStorm**

I will have to agree, cancelled my pledge too, nothing strong to hype/ hold me on the product it is an interesting experiment on KS though.

**JohnHwangDD**

KS is for building marketing hype, and KS is for FOMO.

* If your product is a premade presale, there's nothing to hype.

* If your product will have plenty available afterward, there's no FOMO.

* If your presale product won't make Christmas, then there's no pressure

KS was a bad idea for this project all around

**PsychoticStorm**

Maybe?

I am not sure KS is a bad solution for a completed, non stretch goals, product.

I am positive the way they run it from pre KS till now was a bad format.

**Monkeysloth**

I think the no SG stuff would work if they actually did something like Batman or Mythic Battles with a ton of stuff for your $120 instead of a game for $80 that looked like any normal retail box.