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In a van down by the river

Additionally when discussing model kits it's also skewing the results to compare a copyrighted item to one that cannot be copyrighted; WW2 vehicles and their appearances are historical fact and thus a company cannot claim copyright to the Sherman tank in any scale. At best they can copyright their particular kit design, which while not nothing isn't really much given that there's innumerable ways to lay out a sprue. This is WHY that market is so crowded and additionally why the prices are lower as competition can exist and that's usually to the benefit of the consumer.

When you look at models that are part of a unique IP and thus protected by copyright, you see the prices jump up. Warlord Games sells their Bolt Action models for somewhere between £1 a model and £2. Go over to their Gates of Antares range which is the same general scale but copyrighted and the price goes to between £2 and £4 a model typically. While GW certainly can push the envelope when you look at the new Chaos Terminators (£7 a model), their basic troops do seem to fall into a similar range (new CSM: £3.50 a model). Not having played GoA I can't say if the overall cost of the army is much lower due to a lower typical model count, but on a "how many things do I get" basis they're comparable.

So, as mentioned previously, you're paying for the IP. If you just want to push toy soldiers and tanks around, historical models will offer much better currency-to-product conversion rates because you're not paying the IP tax. If you want to use the Adeptus Astartes to fight Abbadon the Despoiler, then there's going to be the higher rate for dealing with the (effective) monopoly on that IP. Given that the intent of granting companies said monopolies and their higher return rates is to theoretically encourage more people to create more things, it's kind of the way the system is set up to work.
   
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Fixture of Dakka






 Azreal13 wrote:
Sorta missed the point there chap.


By comparison to the sort of details I see on model kits - traks assembled from dozens of individual links, aerials, grab rails, machineguns and spotlights, brass-etch spaced armour etc - those kits are indeed pretty resilient. I mean, how many early Rhino models do you see with intact grab rails and antenna?

Even the 1:72 Airfix kits I've built had very flimsy propellers, radio aerial masts and odd bits sticking up with contact points much, much smaller than anything on those three characters you posted. The nearest comparison would be the antennae and probes on a Land Speeder,and they're three or four time thicker than anything on the model kits I've built.
   
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Devon, UK

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. I've transported many large, resin minis to and from my local club and played games with them with no damage (at least nothing so traumatic that I can recall.)

If I can do that with heavy resin models with delicate pieces (Mierce's Krull as point of reference) then I don't accept the issue with any plastic scale model.

Not to mention that "more expensive but less detail!" smacks of marketing double speak rather than any sort of cogent argument.

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Regular Dakkanaut




GW has always been expensive- things are merely getting worse.

And no, it wouldn't matter if I ran a Fortune 500 company; $60 for ten basic infantry, $30 characters and so on would still be ripoffs.
   
Made in gb
Heroic Senior Officer





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

The new chaos SM characters are only £15 each.
It looks as though they might be listening to the complaints.
Though, the command squad is >£50, so maybe not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/18 20:55:38


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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
I've always said comparing GW to other hobbies is an empty pointless comparison.


And I've always said that you're absolutely wrong.

A fast food hamburger costs $0.99.

A fast food cheeseburger costs $1.09.

Who gives a if the cheese adds 10% value or not, both options are so cheap that I'm not even looking at the price before choosing which one I want. Same thing with miniatures. No matter what miniatures I'm buying it's still so cheap that it doesn't make any difference what I'm getting. And at the end of the day that's what decides whether or not something is expensive.


And that's clearly a personal judgement for each individual. So while to you they may not be expensive, to others they are. That's not even taking into account the difference between value and cost. I think the most expensive single model GW sells in the UK is about £100. I'm quite capable of spending £100 in one go on a model if I feel like it - I won't end up unable to pay my bills and mortgage. But if I don't think that £100 represents good value I'm not going to spend my money on it. £22.50 for a single character model, for example, is ridiculous, because I don't think it represents good value, not because I can't physically afford it. That's before you start looking at the total cost of an army, which is where value and cost collide for a lot of people to form a perfect storm of resentment.

To use your burger analogy, GW are selling $10 burgers at $45 each. I can afford that but Id feel like a chump paying so much more than something's actually worth.
   
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Dakka Veteran





The discussion of IP and price is very much on point. Miniatures of historical troops that do not have IP that is owned by the model maker are usually much lower in price than miniatures that have company owned IP. The ones that do not have IP must be priced competatively, or they could be undercut by another manufacturer.

Now some people will say the IP is worth the extra cost. I think that many companies overcharge for the IP. I have seen tons of tournament players with unpainted models. They have no attachment to minis/IP. They would use pieces of paper, if tournaments would let them. Then there are the vast numbers of casual players who start out. Some never build more than 750 points and then quit. Others get influenced by the tournament crowd and build up more points. I think the influence of tournament players is extreme and helps keep the price up.

The overall cost for a full army in many games is very high. If you like an IP, and get a few models because of it, that may be fine. You have some nice things to model and paint, and can get your dose of IP. But when you have to get a whole metric ton of them. I know people who love the IP and are into the hobby who get burnt out hobbying as there are just so many dudes to build and paint.
   
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 spaceelf wrote:
The discussion of IP and price is very much on point. Miniatures of historical troops that do not have IP that is owned by the model maker are usually much lower in price than miniatures that have company owned IP. The ones that do not have IP must be priced competatively, or they could be undercut by another manufacturer.

Now some people will say the IP is worth the extra cost. I think that many companies overcharge for the IP. I have seen tons of tournament players with unpainted models. They have no attachment to minis/IP. They would use pieces of paper, if tournaments would let them. Then there are the vast numbers of casual players who start out. Some never build more than 750 points and then quit. Others get influenced by the tournament crowd and build up more points. I think the influence of tournament players is extreme and helps keep the price up.

The overall cost for a full army in many games is very high. If you like an IP, and get a few models because of it, that may be fine. You have some nice things to model and paint, and can get your dose of IP. But when you have to get a whole metric ton of them. I know people who love the IP and are into the hobby who get burnt out hobbying as there are just so many dudes to build and paint.


The time investment for me is and has always been more impactful than the monetary investment. I've currently spent about 1/3 of my most recent painting commission on an expansion to my genestealer cultists, which was with the 20% discount I get from my seller 180$ and bought me around 650 points. But I now have 8 bikers, 2 quads and 12 large infantry models I need to get painted up, which is going to take me at least a month and a half to get through. If I were buying up neophytes that would be 40$ for 10 models, which each take me about 2 hours to paint. 2$ per hour of entertainment is most certainly a better exchange rate than I tend to get for a AAA video game title - I don't know what AAA video games you're buying, but on the very best ones I usually only get about 20 hours out of them, and they're 60$. Even assuming I never play the game (which I do) I get more out of painting miniatures than I do out of playing video games.
   
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Dakka Veteran




 spaceelf wrote:
The discussion of IP and price is very much on point. Miniatures of historical troops that do not have IP that is owned by the model maker are usually much lower in price than miniatures that have company owned IP. The ones that do not have IP must be priced competatively, or they could be undercut by another manufacturer.

Now some people will say the IP is worth the extra cost. I think that many companies overcharge for the IP. I have seen tons of tournament players with unpainted models. They have no attachment to minis/IP. They would use pieces of paper, if tournaments would let them. Then there are the vast numbers of casual players who start out. Some never build more than 750 points and then quit. Others get influenced by the tournament crowd and build up more points. I think the influence of tournament players is extreme and helps keep the price up.

The overall cost for a full army in many games is very high. If you like an IP, and get a few models because of it, that may be fine. You have some nice things to model and paint, and can get your dose of IP. But when you have to get a whole metric ton of them. I know people who love the IP and are into the hobby who get burnt out hobbying as there are just so many dudes to build and paint.


Why i do not think the prices are good, i do think that the IP GW has is worth it. As people are buying even at the high price. I often think, that with the game you are paying for the IP as that is what keeps people playing. I have had a lot of players say to me that they do not care about how bad the game is, they just like 40k.

Honestly i think if it was not for the IP i would not being playing 40k, its almost amazing how well it can keep players even if they constantly crash, burn and say they will never play again. Some always come back.
Its also a pain when the internet tells new players that everywhere plays 40k, they get there parents to buy them some. Turn up to play and get told, no one plays 40k :( At least kill team was good enough that some of those models can be used.
   
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I think its silly to try to justify a luxury item by any metric other than what that money and what that object mean to you. You can go through mental gymnastics to justify it to yourself or to someone else, but really its forgone conclusion at that point and you're really just trying to make yourself feel better about your choice. People talk about the hours of entertainment they'll get out of a GW model kit as if that volume for the cost is only a good thing. What if for the same amount of money you could get a product that gives you the same amount of enjoyment, but you only need 10 minutes for that pay off? How about the zero sum opportunity cost that says beyond a certain point every extra hour you spend on hobbying costs you something, because you could either resume productivity or do more of those minor household chores that save you money or just better yourself.

I think GW's prices are pretty ridiculous because I've worked in a manufacturing industry producing similar enough parts in a role where I know what all this should cost GW to produce. At the volumes and quality they produce their prices are excessive. They're already more profitable than most manufacturers when they sell at their wholesale price. GW's wholesale price is more than most companies retail price, relative to costs.

Trying to justify the prices by pointing to discounts is silly. Discounts from GW are rather meaningless. Remember the same year GW announced they'd start to allow online retailers to sell their products in the US for upto 20% off, the average product price climbed almost 20%. People go nuts for the big boxed games for how much they save, but the way manufacturing works, that isn't a volume discount its a unit price. When GW sells "$320" worth of minis in a $160 box, what they're really doing is profitably selling you minis that cost them less than $100 at $320 the rest of the time.

People point to all these other things and say look at the value. I'd turn that around, ask yourself "What price is too high?" -ask yourself how many more times over the actual cost to make a thing you're willing to pay before you feel cheated? -Can you eve feel cheated by any price?

Don't get me wrong companies should feel free to price things however they want and turn whatever profit they can. Its about consumers knowing enough to know they're getting screwed, even if they're perfectly willing to accept it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/07 21:08:49


 
   
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Yeah, sorry, but when a box of 10 CSM cost $60, that's gonna chase people away. You can't even say it's new scuplts that go up in price, I play IG and yet those same old crappy guard scuplts get bumped up. Shoot, they don't even give you all the special weapons that the rules say the squad can use. Want to use meltas or plasmas? Go spend more money.

I've bought my fair share of Lemans and a couple of baneblades, but I've proxied all my guards because there's no way I'm paying $23+ for 10 old models that lack half the special weapon options.

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This will be a debate for much time yet. I don't think we'll see when it proves to be too much until much of the old guard give up on it or just stop buying.

For many of us we have a ton of models already so all we do is pick up a thing or two here or there. So the cost feels low, starting an army from scratch to like 2k, that is costly and the real barrier for many new entrants into the game.
   
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London

Can anybody point to a time where people weren't complaining about GW prices?
   
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Fort Worth, TX

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Can anybody point to a time where people weren't complaining about GW prices?


1974.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
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"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
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 Tannhauser42 wrote:
 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Can anybody point to a time where people weren't complaining about GW prices?


1974.
When the Shadow War Armageddon came out people were happy with the price for the amount of terrain... and again with the pricing of the Killteam Killzone sets. Complaints were about the lack of availability.

The starter set for AoS and 40k the complaints were less price and more just generally entry level accessibility.
   
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Heroic Senior Officer





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

Box sets make the price of models easier to bear. Half-price with extras is nice.
But, it is relative. Spending £95 for a small army can seem reasonable, if you can offload the other half of the set.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/07 14:39:16


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IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
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Dublin, Ireland

Can anybody point to a time where people weren't complaining about GW prices?


I always thought their old terrain kits (manifactorium, bunker kits, sector imperialis etc) were quite good value.

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
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London

 aka_mythos wrote:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:
 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Can anybody point to a time where people weren't complaining about GW prices?


1974.
When the Shadow War Armageddon came out people were happy with the price for the amount of terrain... and again with the pricing of the Killteam Killzone sets. Complaints were about the lack of availability.

The starter set for AoS and 40k the complaints were less price and more just generally entry level accessibility.


People were still complaining about GW prices then. Perhaps not about that particular kit, but plenty of moaning about price adjustments.
   
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Dakka Veteran




There were times GW had some very good prices. I actually remember back when I felt the kits were semi reasonable in cost. ( same as current kits )

Like when you got 20 guardsmen for the cost of around the 10 now, when a land raider was around 50 american dollars and so were predators and whirlwinds. ( Same kits as now mind you )

Pretty much every model in the line has gone up by a third of its price from when I started, in some cases more. Some got cheaper, like Ogryns for instance. Most had huge increases.

Back when Apocalypse first dropped, Remember that ? I do, they had actually really good large model buy in deals. Like buy two, ( cheaper then vindicators and get one free ) etc, etc. It was a glorious time to soak in the savings.

So yeah, was never a time people didn't complain as they will always complain, but the amount has gone up and it's not really a mystery why.
   
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AngryAngel80 wrote:
There were times GW had some very good prices. I actually remember back when I felt the kits were semi reasonable in cost. ( same as current kits )

Like when you got 20 guardsmen for the cost of around the 10 now, when a land raider was around 50 american dollars and so were predators and whirlwinds. ( Same kits as now mind you )

Pretty much every model in the line has gone up by a third of its price from when I started, in some cases more. Some got cheaper, like Ogryns for instance. Most had huge increases.

Back when Apocalypse first dropped, Remember that ? I do, they had actually really good large model buy in deals. Like buy two, ( cheaper then vindicators and get one free ) etc, etc. It was a glorious time to soak in the savings.

So yeah, was never a time people didn't complain as they will always complain, but the amount has gone up and it's not really a mystery why.


Of course it's not a mystery why. Your money isn't worth what they tell you it is and GW won't (they tried and China started mass grey marketing their products). So you are forced to absorb the "real cost" of things vs the very skewed cost of things provided through 3rd world slave economies.

Sure you can get a big screen TV for cheap today, but that's because its made in the millions by slave labor in a nation with no environmental controls or concerns.

GW Makes their models in House. That's gotta cost a fortune. British Labor isn't cheap, unless they are staffing it with certain groups and paying them less than the law requires or not paying the taxes the law requires. It costs more to manufacture in the UK than in the US by quite a margin.

So of course their models are expensive and keep going up. So to does labor costs in Brittan.

That's what you are absorbing. They are a publicly traded corporation who are out to make money. They are not a non-profit in it for the good will and good feels.

So a low production number item being manufactured (taxed) and shipped from one of the more expensive places to do such things in the world, that keeps getting more expensive every year in a publicly traded for profit corporation... is entirely unsurprising. If they made kits in the MILLIONS, tens of MILLIONS in China.. it'd be cheap. Or India I guess. But that is the new-hotness for Heavy Industry outsourced production.. which plastic injection molding isn't.

As for how much prices have gone up. A kit you could buy in 2010 on release for 70 is now close to 170 USD. Oh yeah. Then again..

Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
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I suppose, but GW has been doing work with china. All the kill team kits at least and easy to build stuff are all made in china, least the ones I got. Those kill team boxes aren't super cheap either.

Point is, sure I can get why they are so expensive but model war gaming isn't the new hotness its much the old coolness at this time. As tech grows and grows and the cost difference dwindles between tech items and plastic toys, these prices will need to slide down or there market will fade.

We live in an age of instant gratification and that warhammer isn't, though other systems like Armada and X wing, attack wing can be that more or less.

So they need to rattle this under control or the new blood will dry up as less and less kids care about such things when they are almost born with a tablet in their tiny little hands these days that lead them right to comps and consoles for instant fun over have to work for it fun.
   
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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I suppose, but GW has been doing work with china. All the kill team kits at least and easy to build stuff are all made in china, least the ones I got. Those kill team boxes aren't super cheap either.

Point is, sure I can get why they are so expensive but model war gaming isn't the new hotness its much the old coolness at this time. As tech grows and grows and the cost difference dwindles between tech items and plastic toys, these prices will need to slide down or there market will fade.

We live in an age of instant gratification and that warhammer isn't, though other systems like Armada and X wing, attack wing can be that more or less.

So they need to rattle this under control or the new blood will dry up as less and less kids care about such things when they are almost born with a tablet in their tiny little hands these days that lead them right to comps and consoles for instant fun over have to work for it fun.


That last bit is more a problem with parenting then how toys and models are marketed.
Ultimately, it's up to the parents to NOT give their babies and children electronics as soon as they can hold them.
My kids haven't grown up with phones or tablets in their hands, and they have very little interest in video games consoles, and the Internet.

Don't go and blame poor parenting and a lack of attention to one's children for the lack of interest in kids today toward analog hobbies. It's up to the parents, and if the parents weren't themselves so involved with their devices, their kids wouldn't be either.
It's actually much cheaper for me to buy a $50 model every month than it is to give my kids a smart device. So, despite the rise.in prices, analog gaming is still way cheaper than electronics, consoles and computers, even if I spend $100 a month on hobby stuff. This gets lost on most folks, because the cost of your smart device is so integrated into ones expenses most folks don't even count it, or notice it.

It's a bad trope, but 'Monkey See, Monkey Do.' This seems to have been forgotten by today's parents.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/09 14:35:12


 
   
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SoCal

If you buy your kids one $50 mini per month, how many years will it be before they can play a single game?

   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you buy your kids one $50 mini per month, how many years will it be before they can play a single game?


Long enough to become adults, get real jobs, and buy as many $50 minis as they want. But hey, if you keep the kids isolated from the larger community and never tell them that 40k is more than a couple of tactical squads on each side maybe they won't know how much they're missing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/09 22:34:24


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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you buy your kids one $50 mini per month, how many years will it be before they can play a single game?


We can play a single game for less than that - we play Shadespire. It depends on what you play. It also depends on the age of your kids. I don't think a 9 year old is going to want to play a 2000pt game that takes over 3 hours including set up.

There's nothing wrong with buying into a game one model.or box at a time. And sometimes it's just about occupying your time with a hobby, like assembly and painting. Not everything needs to revolve around just playing the game.
   
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I'm from the future. The future of space

One thing GW has definitely done better over the last five years is support smaller model count games. You can now get a playable force in a single box for killteam or underworlds and likely for warcry when that comes out as well. Also, 8th and AoS both work quite well for smaller model count games at lower point values.

For me, GW has a variety of price points that I see as range from a very bad deal to a very good deal and everything in between. The barrier to entry is quite low for the games/products meant to be that sort of an entry point. We're no where near the last years of Warhammer fantasy with it's massive regiments or the 6th and 7th ed 40k list with the supplement treadmill in terms of total cost to play a game.

Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
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Advances in 3d printing will be the bane of this industry.
   
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SoCal

 Peregrine wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you buy your kids one $50 mini per month, how many years will it be before they can play a single game?


Long enough to become adults, get real jobs, and buy as many $50 minis as they want. But hey, if you keep the kids isolated from the larger community and never tell them that 40k is more than a couple of tactical squads on each side maybe they won't know how much they're missing.


By the time my son is an adult they'll be $100 per miniature. But average wage will be the same as it is now.

Anyway, he's into Shadows of Brimstone, which is about $50 for an expansion that can last most of a year. The whole GW side of the hobby just comes across ridiculous to me these days. It seems to exist as a runaway tournament scene decoupled from most people's ideas of an enjoyable experience.

@ Ghool, is the Shadespire starter box including all necessary gaming tools really less than $50? I'll have to check that out.

   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you buy your kids one $50 mini per month, how many years will it be before they can play a single game?


Long enough to become adults, get real jobs, and buy as many $50 minis as they want. But hey, if you keep the kids isolated from the larger community and never tell them that 40k is more than a couple of tactical squads on each side maybe they won't know how much they're missing.


By the time my son is an adult they'll be $100 per miniature. But average wage will be the same as it is now.

Anyway, he's into Shadows of Brimstone, which is about $50 for an expansion that can last most of a year. The whole GW side of the hobby just comes across ridiculous to me these days. It seems to exist as a runaway tournament scene decoupled from most people's ideas of an enjoyable experience.

@ Ghool, is the Shadespire starter box including all necessary gaming tools really less than $50? I'll have to check that out.


It was a.total of $140CAD for the base Nightvault box and 2 warbands (base box is $70CAD). Once these 4 are painted we'll be getting some more. And yeah GW has plenty of price points that don't require a fortune to get into and play.
So while it might be sky high prices to collect and army, but that's pretty much a given no matter what minis game or company it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/10 12:55:28


 
   
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Myrtle Creek, OR

NightVault is $60 USD and includes two warbands and the stuff needed to play the base game. On discount, you can pick it up for around $50 USD. Expansion warbands run about $30 USD full MSRP and have 3 - 7 miniatures plus cards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/10 15:11:32


 
   
 
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