Switch Theme:

sky high prices  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Major




In a van down by the river

Additionally when discussing model kits it's also skewing the results to compare a copyrighted item to one that cannot be copyrighted; WW2 vehicles and their appearances are historical fact and thus a company cannot claim copyright to the Sherman tank in any scale. At best they can copyright their particular kit design, which while not nothing isn't really much given that there's innumerable ways to lay out a sprue. This is WHY that market is so crowded and additionally why the prices are lower as competition can exist and that's usually to the benefit of the consumer.

When you look at models that are part of a unique IP and thus protected by copyright, you see the prices jump up. Warlord Games sells their Bolt Action models for somewhere between £1 a model and £2. Go over to their Gates of Antares range which is the same general scale but copyrighted and the price goes to between £2 and £4 a model typically. While GW certainly can push the envelope when you look at the new Chaos Terminators (£7 a model), their basic troops do seem to fall into a similar range (new CSM: £3.50 a model). Not having played GoA I can't say if the overall cost of the army is much lower due to a lower typical model count, but on a "how many things do I get" basis they're comparable.

So, as mentioned previously, you're paying for the IP. If you just want to push toy soldiers and tanks around, historical models will offer much better currency-to-product conversion rates because you're not paying the IP tax. If you want to use the Adeptus Astartes to fight Abbadon the Despoiler, then there's going to be the higher rate for dealing with the (effective) monopoly on that IP. Given that the intent of granting companies said monopolies and their higher return rates is to theoretically encourage more people to create more things, it's kind of the way the system is set up to work.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 Azreal13 wrote:
Sorta missed the point there chap.


By comparison to the sort of details I see on model kits - traks assembled from dozens of individual links, aerials, grab rails, machineguns and spotlights, brass-etch spaced armour etc - those kits are indeed pretty resilient. I mean, how many early Rhino models do you see with intact grab rails and antenna?

Even the 1:72 Airfix kits I've built had very flimsy propellers, radio aerial masts and odd bits sticking up with contact points much, much smaller than anything on those three characters you posted. The nearest comparison would be the antennae and probes on a Land Speeder,and they're three or four time thicker than anything on the model kits I've built.
   
Made in gb
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Devon, UK

I'm sorry but I don't buy it. I've transported many large, resin minis to and from my local club and played games with them with no damage (at least nothing so traumatic that I can recall.)

If I can do that with heavy resin models with delicate pieces (Mierce's Krull as point of reference) then I don't accept the issue with any plastic scale model.

Not to mention that "more expensive but less detail!" smacks of marketing double speak rather than any sort of cogent argument.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




GW has always been expensive- things are merely getting worse.

And no, it wouldn't matter if I ran a Fortune 500 company; $60 for ten basic infantry, $30 characters and so on would still be ripoffs.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

The new chaos SM characters are only £15 each.
It looks as though they might be listening to the complaints.
Though, the command squad is >£50, so maybe not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/18 20:55:38


4000 pts - 3500 pts - 3500 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 1000 pts DS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Peregrine wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
I've always said comparing GW to other hobbies is an empty pointless comparison.


And I've always said that you're absolutely wrong.

A fast food hamburger costs $0.99.

A fast food cheeseburger costs $1.09.

Who gives a if the cheese adds 10% value or not, both options are so cheap that I'm not even looking at the price before choosing which one I want. Same thing with miniatures. No matter what miniatures I'm buying it's still so cheap that it doesn't make any difference what I'm getting. And at the end of the day that's what decides whether or not something is expensive.


And that's clearly a personal judgement for each individual. So while to you they may not be expensive, to others they are. That's not even taking into account the difference between value and cost. I think the most expensive single model GW sells in the UK is about £100. I'm quite capable of spending £100 in one go on a model if I feel like it - I won't end up unable to pay my bills and mortgage. But if I don't think that £100 represents good value I'm not going to spend my money on it. £22.50 for a single character model, for example, is ridiculous, because I don't think it represents good value, not because I can't physically afford it. That's before you start looking at the total cost of an army, which is where value and cost collide for a lot of people to form a perfect storm of resentment.

To use your burger analogy, GW are selling $10 burgers at $45 each. I can afford that but Id feel like a chump paying so much more than something's actually worth.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





The discussion of IP and price is very much on point. Miniatures of historical troops that do not have IP that is owned by the model maker are usually much lower in price than miniatures that have company owned IP. The ones that do not have IP must be priced competatively, or they could be undercut by another manufacturer.

Now some people will say the IP is worth the extra cost. I think that many companies overcharge for the IP. I have seen tons of tournament players with unpainted models. They have no attachment to minis/IP. They would use pieces of paper, if tournaments would let them. Then there are the vast numbers of casual players who start out. Some never build more than 750 points and then quit. Others get influenced by the tournament crowd and build up more points. I think the influence of tournament players is extreme and helps keep the price up.

The overall cost for a full army in many games is very high. If you like an IP, and get a few models because of it, that may be fine. You have some nice things to model and paint, and can get your dose of IP. But when you have to get a whole metric ton of them. I know people who love the IP and are into the hobby who get burnt out hobbying as there are just so many dudes to build and paint.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




 spaceelf wrote:
The discussion of IP and price is very much on point. Miniatures of historical troops that do not have IP that is owned by the model maker are usually much lower in price than miniatures that have company owned IP. The ones that do not have IP must be priced competatively, or they could be undercut by another manufacturer.

Now some people will say the IP is worth the extra cost. I think that many companies overcharge for the IP. I have seen tons of tournament players with unpainted models. They have no attachment to minis/IP. They would use pieces of paper, if tournaments would let them. Then there are the vast numbers of casual players who start out. Some never build more than 750 points and then quit. Others get influenced by the tournament crowd and build up more points. I think the influence of tournament players is extreme and helps keep the price up.

The overall cost for a full army in many games is very high. If you like an IP, and get a few models because of it, that may be fine. You have some nice things to model and paint, and can get your dose of IP. But when you have to get a whole metric ton of them. I know people who love the IP and are into the hobby who get burnt out hobbying as there are just so many dudes to build and paint.


The time investment for me is and has always been more impactful than the monetary investment. I've currently spent about 1/3 of my most recent painting commission on an expansion to my genestealer cultists, which was with the 20% discount I get from my seller 180$ and bought me around 650 points. But I now have 8 bikers, 2 quads and 12 large infantry models I need to get painted up, which is going to take me at least a month and a half to get through. If I were buying up neophytes that would be 40$ for 10 models, which each take me about 2 hours to paint. 2$ per hour of entertainment is most certainly a better exchange rate than I tend to get for a AAA video game title - I don't know what AAA video games you're buying, but on the very best ones I usually only get about 20 hours out of them, and they're 60$. Even assuming I never play the game (which I do) I get more out of painting miniatures than I do out of playing video games.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 spaceelf wrote:
The discussion of IP and price is very much on point. Miniatures of historical troops that do not have IP that is owned by the model maker are usually much lower in price than miniatures that have company owned IP. The ones that do not have IP must be priced competatively, or they could be undercut by another manufacturer.

Now some people will say the IP is worth the extra cost. I think that many companies overcharge for the IP. I have seen tons of tournament players with unpainted models. They have no attachment to minis/IP. They would use pieces of paper, if tournaments would let them. Then there are the vast numbers of casual players who start out. Some never build more than 750 points and then quit. Others get influenced by the tournament crowd and build up more points. I think the influence of tournament players is extreme and helps keep the price up.

The overall cost for a full army in many games is very high. If you like an IP, and get a few models because of it, that may be fine. You have some nice things to model and paint, and can get your dose of IP. But when you have to get a whole metric ton of them. I know people who love the IP and are into the hobby who get burnt out hobbying as there are just so many dudes to build and paint.


Why i do not think the prices are good, i do think that the IP GW has is worth it. As people are buying even at the high price. I often think, that with the game you are paying for the IP as that is what keeps people playing. I have had a lot of players say to me that they do not care about how bad the game is, they just like 40k.

Honestly i think if it was not for the IP i would not being playing 40k, its almost amazing how well it can keep players even if they constantly crash, burn and say they will never play again. Some always come back.
Its also a pain when the internet tells new players that everywhere plays 40k, they get there parents to buy them some. Turn up to play and get told, no one plays 40k :( At least kill team was good enough that some of those models can be used.
   
Made in us
Veteran Inquisitor with Xenos Alliances






I think its silly to try to justify a luxury item by any metric other than what that money and what that object mean to you. You can go through mental gymnastics to justify it to yourself or to someone else, but really its forgone conclusion at that point and you're really just trying to make yourself feel better about your choice. People talk about the hours of entertainment they'll get out of a GW model kit as if that volume for the cost is only a good thing. What if for the same amount of money you could get a product that gives you the same amount of enjoyment, but you only need 10 minutes for that pay off? How about the zero sum opportunity cost that says beyond a certain point every extra hour you spend on hobbying costs you something, because you could either resume productivity or do more of those minor household chores that save you money or just better yourself.

I think GW's prices are pretty ridiculous because I've worked in a manufacturing industry producing similar enough parts in a role where I know what all this should cost GW to produce. At the volumes and quality they produce their prices are excessive. They're already more profitable than most manufacturers when they sell at their wholesale price. GW's wholesale price is more than most companies retail price, relative to costs.

Trying to justify the prices by pointing to discounts is silly. Discounts from GW are rather meaningless. Remember the same year GW announced they'd start to allow online retailers to sell their products in the US for upto 20% off, the average product price climbed almost 20%. People go nuts for the big boxed games for how much they save, but the way manufacturing works, that isn't a volume discount its a unit price. When GW sells "$320" worth of minis in a $160 box, what they're really doing is profitably selling you minis that cost them less than $100 at $320 the rest of the time.

People point to all these other things and say look at the value. I'd turn that around, ask yourself "What price is too high?" -ask yourself how many more times over the actual cost to make a thing you're willing to pay before you feel cheated? -Can you eve feel cheated by any price?

Don't get me wrong companies should feel free to price things however they want and turn whatever profit they can. Its about consumers knowing enough to know they're getting screwed, even if they're perfectly willing to accept it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/07 21:08:49


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Yeah, sorry, but when a box of 10 CSM cost $60, that's gonna chase people away. You can't even say it's new scuplts that go up in price, I play IG and yet those same old crappy guard scuplts get bumped up. Shoot, they don't even give you all the special weapons that the rules say the squad can use. Want to use meltas or plasmas? Go spend more money.

I've bought my fair share of Lemans and a couple of baneblades, but I've proxied all my guards because there's no way I'm paying $23+ for 10 old models that lack half the special weapon options.

Successful Trades: 4
warriorpriest, shank911,TheMostWize,godswildcard 
   
 
Forum Index » Dakka Discussions
Go to: