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I think that idea is very misleading. 40k fluff can be anything. Tyranids can very obviously pull vast types of mineral deposits from the earth and its supported by the psycho-reactive minerals that the swarm lord uses for its bone sabres. They match no known material in this galaxy. Their projectile bio weapons have living creatures grow, get launched from their growth hive, and harden to the point of being stronger than diamonds, then explode from within with terribly destructive acid all within less than seconds.

Their hive fleets dont travel through the warp, but instead can manipulate, create and harness gravity to literally launch themselves at ridiculous speeds through space. That's all very clear evidence of them turning matter to energy and back to matter or transferring energy to something else. And they can do this to an insane degree. The swarmlords unknown mineral blades can be made using resources found in this galaxy. And it can be made, used, reabsorbed into a hive fleet and be created in a different section of the galaxy, in a different hive fleet. They literally are the pinnacle of evolution. The only thing holding them back is imagination. And maybe the cost of energy for growing all these things. Energy has to be spent to convert energy after all. No process gets around that

And even if one species cant take 100% of all resources in the universe.. neither can the rest. You cant take dirt and make it metal. The mechanicus have tech that they've forgotten that's in many ways more advanced than the necrons. Theres stories of this all the time.

Also, I'm not sure where you got that summoning quote, it's cool and all, but theres more than one way to summon daemons. Just in the eisenhorn series, its proven one guy can vat-grow a body to house a bound daemon without having to sacrifice anything but time. Some daemons can show up literally with just enough devotion paid to them. Khorne Daemonkin have warbands that dont allow psykers, but by being so zealous in their bloodshed can open holes in the warp for daemons to pour out and join them in combat directly.

Theres even one warband who specialize in fighting tyranids. They have faught their way inside a hive mothership, killed it from within, and pulled forth daemons from inside the ship. Which is right in the middle of the shadow of the warp.

I cannot stress this enough.. you do not need all of those things to summon daemons. It's just the most common method used. You can create daemons in other ways. Helldrakes are a great example. It's literally a fighter craft and pilot spending too much time in the warp, and they become fused together into flying metal dragons.

Also, not all chaos is back stabby. The word bearers and world eaters primarchs are the bro-est of bros. Angron literally threw himself under the foot of a warhound titan and heft it to keep Lorgar from being crushed to death. And when Lorgar found out Angron was dying to the butcher's nails in his head, he turned his brother into a daemon prince and made him immortal. And dont forget that Khorne is also the god of honor and justice, too. All the chaos gods also embody the positive traits of sentient life, it's just the entire galaxy has SO much negative about it that it's the prominent mirror for the majority of sentient beings psyche.

I think you might be taking this sci-fi fantasy game a little too seriously if you're dismissing a Faction because they ain't eating entire planets...

But, as mentioned, it would take a LOOOOOONG time to eat an entire planet, and the Tyranids rely on quickly moving and consuming to overwhelm their opposition. It's entirely possible that there's Hive fleets outside the galaxy that are specifically designed to harvest literally everything and that they're waiting until it's "safe" to do so.

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Do you have some sources for necrons being able to use every type of mass for something? Because even when it comes to 40k, the only race that could really believably accomplish something like that would maybe be the old ones. I'm not saying I dont believe you, I've just never heard of necrons being able to do this. And I only have one necron player in my gaming group.

And yes, for sure, chaos can be fickle. But theres really only one backstabby chaos god. Maybe sometimes Slaanesh. But Tzeentch is the biggest jerk not from the eldar race in 40k. Papa Nurgle loves you, and isn't a betraying sod. Khorne is the god of honor, and has never broken an oath, and specifically has a beastie to hunt down those who betray him. (Karanaks lore is pretty cool) and Kharn in fluff kills all those who scorn the blood God, who are unworthy of being one of his servants, who are worthy offerings to the skull throne, or who attempt to take his skull. If you show loyalty to him and to Khorne, and live for that work, your skull is safe from his axe. Also, with warpsmiths and daemon princes and stuff like that, a vast number of them probably willingly go to their fates. Daemon princes are immortal. Theres some that are entire planets in size. And many of them would consider the sacrifice of others of their kind for a massive creation the same as the jive mind sacrificing gaunts. Plus, you know.. being immortal, they aren't killed in that sacrifice. They're becoming one with it.

With nids..
It's actually shown that without the hive mind, those other leser tyranids have their own instincts and behaviors, and like I said can evolve on their own (the catachan devil, ect). Or in the case of genestealers, are their own thinking masterminds separate from the hivemind, but working with it.

It's mostly mortal greed that makes chaos backstabby. Personal gain and all that from other aspiring champions. But theres a lot of examples of staunch loyalty in chaos. As well as legions and warbands who aren't edgy and spikey marines.

Theres cases of chaos necrons. Of orks who sell their dakka to humans. Of eldar who fall in love with imperial assassins.

40k is an entire galaxy. If you go by official fluff.. well.. theres a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions. One of the most malicious monsters in 40k (Arhiman) is driven to literally save the souls of his legion and make them normal space marines again. But for everyone in his way, hes a butcher.

No fluff is locked in for every subfaction. There are named characters and named legions and named battles but for every one of those, theres leser known warbands, new foundings, lesser dynasties, forgotten splinter fleets, and all sorts of side stories. Theres chaos without daemons, dark mechanicus who took their true A.I. with them after the heresy to hidden bases, renegades who aren't part of the ruinous powers but turn their backs on the imperium because they hate what its become. Theres necrons who have degraded to the point of being nothing but soulless machines.

Theres old rules that let orks loot tyranid monsters and ride them into battle. You're never locked into a corner with 40k. It's a big galaxy. GW supports "your dudes". You can make up your own dynasty, your own hive fleet, your own warband, your own magos. Anything.

You are being excessively pedantic and I don't mean that to be rude.
What I get from your posts is that you need to know everything with 100% certainty or it's a wash for you. That's something you will NEVER get, in ANY setting.
Particularly in 40k lore but it's bad writing in general. That only happens in those kinds of stories where you know what happened in the beginning and the fun is in figuring out how it happened as they flash back and slowly show it.
It never happens on a whole universe setting. Hell, we have two primarchs who ONLY exist for people to make their own gak up.

You say yourself that Nids have the tech to consume planets, what is stopping you from accepting the possibility that they can and roll with that?
Even if the backstory and all possible future and past events of every tyranid in the galaxy are revealed, you STILL won't know what the hivemind is or what the race as a whole is capable of as there would still be untold trillions of tyranids waiting in the void between galaxies.

Logic dictates that you can melt marshmallows with a light saber, but you're never going to get concrete proof of that happening. And according to some media, all it does is leave a stain on armour as opposed to cut through.
Are you going to insist that you can't melt marshmallows just because it's never been seen and there is lore that makes no sense whatsoever? Of course not, so why be so stubborn on tyranid lore?
Logic dictates that they have the possibility to harvest stars and planets, so the question should not be if they can or not, regardless of what GW says, but why don't they?
Which is a question only you can answer because unless you go merge with the literal hivemind, you won't be getting a 100% factual answer on that. You need to cut the lore/writers some slack.
There are plenty of mysteries that are left unresolved on purpose

And as for chaos, if you are ok with being dissolved to be fed back into the swarm, then you have no reason to be confrontational with sacrifice.
By worshipping a god you offer up your soul to your god and by doing so become immortal.
And you don't need to ascend to become immortal either. Daemons are literally immortal and are in fact a part of their God.
They can be re-absorbed and separated at will and time is obviously a triviality to a chaos god.
So if you manage to ascend in some way, death is really not an issue.

Mortal can be effectively immortal too. Kharn died and was resurrected by Khorne. Lucius has died god knows how often and neither are ascended or even possessed, their gods just really like them.
Death is not the end when subscribing to chaos. I mean, it's a gamble whether or not your plans work out, but sacrificing yourself is not necessarily a bad idea, besides those that do often have larger plans at work and by sacrificing themselves, they can complete their life's work.
Achieving your dreams is not a bad way to go if you ask me, and again, death might only be a step towards a greater goal. The gods have plans aeons in the making, who's to say you won't come back a few million years from now or reborn as a god yourself because of what you set in motion.

And on being sacrificed against your will, well that's on you. Guess you weren't as omnipotent as you thought.
The gods aren't just gonna Thanos you out of existence on a whim, somebody has to capture/kill you and so it's your own fault for not being powerful enough to stop it.
So unless you requirements include not ever being able to lose, backstabbing shouldn't be an issue. It doesn't require a god to want your death.
There are enemies in 40k no matter what faction you choose, that's kind of a core concept of 40k.
Besides, how often is a sacrifice truly required/requested by the gods as opposed to being the brainchild of some wannabe chaos champion.

And even then, you obviously have a measure of control over your fate. Willpower is a BIG concept when dealing with chaos.
I mean, the gods are damn near omnipotent so you only really have the illusion of control, but at the same time all bets are off and they play with fire.
They engineered the current state of the galaxy and are thriving because of it, but the emperor screwing them over in the first place wasn't really part of their plans, and yet it worked out in their favour.
At the same though he might well be on the verge of becoming a literal god now that would be diametrically opposed to them and a real threat.

So they seem to know the broad strokes of events, but individuals can very much influence the details and their plans have to change accordingly.
So that same event that requires you to die might end up in your favour and setting you up for godhood.
It doesn't get any better than becoming a God, and we have seen birth been given to new gods in the lore and hints of this happening right now, ie it's a very real possibility if that is really what you want.
When hypothesizing about chaos, time and reality are not static and the scales of plans /events are off the charts.

If you think you understand the gods of chaos, you understand nothing.

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Sacrificing could mean anything. Who knows what happens to the minds and souls of every single ritual. Daemons are stated to be immortal, unkillable. And comes back again and again in many instances of the lore. Same deal with norn queens. If everything else can be broken down, why not the hive fleet ships as well? It's all the same vagueness.

Also, that quote you used doesn't lend evidence to me that necrons can use 100% of all mass/energy in the universe. It just says they use science to such a degree it looks like magic. Same could be said of the mechanicus setting loose a living fire that burns in space and sets alight nebula.

The same link also says how stagnant and fractured crypteks are as well, and how hard they have to work just to maintain their own facilities. And how they may need help gaining materials as well. So necrons aren't immune to the same thing the imperium is going through. Only it's much worse for them as they're older and in drastically fewer numbers.

Human tech was once probably comparable to necron tech in what science they had during the first expansion of humanity, but every single race but the tau and chaos are pretty stagnant. With only recently the imperium getting new swag because Cawl.

As far as tyranids being able to do similar things like devour stars and gas giants, they totally can. It's just a biomass loss to do so compared to what biomass they gain. They're more into being efficient with biomass.

Oh and chaos necrons are totally a thing. Chaos can corrupt even rock and stone. Doesnt need a soul. But if it has a soul, its easier to corrupt. Necrons themselves aren't anti-warp, they just have the strongest anti-warp tech due to the war in heaven.

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After all this, I won't be satisfied with anything less than a pic of roboemperor playing Gladius in full cryptek cosplay...

Word of god is somewhat meaningless here. GW makes lore up to sell new kits and contradicts themselves.
Then you have a bazillion different writers who each have a different vision of how the universe works and contradict each other.
And to top it all off, most stories are just that, stories as told from somebody within the universe and thus subject to that persons interpretations and hearsay.
This reddit post has a few quotes from black library authors straight up telling you that is no such thing as canon for 40k.

So I'm sorry, but you won't be getting any kind of confirmation from GW and even if you do, you can easily dismiss it if it doesn't suit your headcanon an consequently, you're going to have to make up your own mind whether or nor a faction is capable of X or Y.

Yeah, the link you provided doesnt say directly or indirectly that they can turn anything into anything, or that they could make necrodermis from dirt or water. That same source also says they're stagnating as well, if you read down.

Are you sure you're getting accurate examples of their ability and not just assuming some of your own opinion? I also want to point out it's a wiki page, so it's own accuracy isn't nessisarily top tier. All technology has its limits. Necrons are no different. Else they would have been able to fix their living bodies while they were still the necrontyr. They were still slaves to more powerful beings, even with their technology, after all.

I would also like sources on necrons being so numerous in the galaxy, as humanity is mind bogglingly vast and spread across all of the galaxy, and the necrons just.. weren't ever the galaxies dominant race. As they were rising, the old ones (who were the galaxies masters) made the krork and advanced the eldar to stop them from becoming too big a threat. Even the eldar, who would be the galaxies next dominant race still never spread across to the degree that humans have. Only the orks are more numerous than humanity. And necrons had pitiful lifespans and breeding problems throughout their history even before the war in heaven. So I'm pretty suspicious of that without direct proof.

This is fun. Is anyone else having fun? I'm having fun.

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Fully awake and unite.. meaning the silent king coming back from outside the galaxy? Meaning all of the scarabs and other constructs counted? Meaning all of the original soul bound living metal dudes, or newly created warriors? Meaning all of the c'tan shards coming under control? Wasnt there old fluff of then turning humans into necrons, and that's how they got one of the unit types? Would that mean when they wake up, they start turning other races into necron warriors too? Or does it mean their numbers are vast because the automated processes have churned out fresh warriors while they slept? Theres a lot of unknowns there to make a matter of fact statement like that.

Also, your own quote shows each cryptek specializes in one type of science and hyper focused on it. Turning a whole foe into a speck of star dust is taking an amount of mass and spending an unknown amount of energy to get back an amount of mass several millionths of a percent smaller than it was. That's vast losses in energy for a result you could get by just blasting plasma at them.

Transmuting to liquid adamantium also isn't hard when space marine armor is made of plasteel, ceramite and.. adamantium.. they're just liquifying them. Thats still not "anything into anything". And even if they could make something like.. base carbon (which makes up most life forms) into a specific other type of material via their own scientific process, theres no evidence they can turn that same carbon based form into literally any other form. And it's still pointing towards specific actions being able to come to specific results. Especially when they go out of their way to say that crypteks super focus on their specialization of choice.

Whereas chaos can change anything into anything else, and explicitly has fluff that supports chaos beings like daemons of tzeentch changing anything into any other random thing they feel like. Even basic troops like flamers of tzeentch will have random outcomes based on the mood of the lord of change ag the time.

I also just want to go back to the "if the necrons unite" bit..

If all of humanity stops and works together, from every space marine faction, mechanicus, guard, noble house and such stops playing power struggle games and politics and bands under the emperors flag again, and contact is reestablished with all lost colony worlds, and technology is shared, humans will waffle stomp the galaxy again.

If the eldar reunite the craft worlds, dark city, exodites, corsairs and harlequins together for one purpose, they could save their species and rid the galaxy of 24% of the chaos gods, and lock out the other races from being the dominant superpower in the galaxy. While using clone technology and dark eldar science to grow their numbers.

If all of chaos unites under a common leader, who's backed by all 4 gods, and theres no more petty power plays, it will play out like the end times of age of sigmar with abaddon in place of archaeon the everchosen.

If every ork rallies around gazzy, and unites all orks across the galaxy, it will play out like the beast did and eventually the return of the krork and they'll outplay every single other species.

But that's a lot of "ifs".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and.. if the tyranids are only small "tip of the iceberg" fleets that we have seen just far, everyone will get eaten by them eventually.

The only ones who cant really affect the galaxy in meaningful ways are the tau. At least not yet.

There is also something you may not have considered yet. Tyranids may be engineered by the old ones as a sort of reset button. Clean the galaxy of all life, then start over. The tyranids would then act as a giant dna database, having absorbed all life. In that scenario there is not much to gain from destroying planets and such, you only need to cleanse it of life, not inorganic material that can be used for the next cycle.

 Roknar wrote:
There is also something you may not have considered yet. Tyranids may be engineered by the old ones as a sort of reset button. Clean the galaxy of all life, then start over. The tyranids would then act as a giant dna database, having absorbed all life. In that scenario there is not much to gain from destroying planets and such, you only need to cleanse it of life, not inorganic material that can be used for the next cycle.

Save everyone by destroying everyone and stashing their DNA in a database for later? By using immense betentacled spacecraft that deploy endless hordes of mindless flesh-drones whose only guns are organically melded into their bodies? With powerful biotic psychic monsters leading the swarms, giant flying worm-things, and no weakpoint to defeat their invasions so it takes a space marine and a deus ex machina? That's how we get rid of the Tyranids! We find the holographic child-computer leading them and tell it to f*** off!

Remove the deus ex machina part and abominable AI hellspawn at the end and it you have a really cool story

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"Foes" is ambiguous and not specific enough to cite a claim it means every single enemy they could come across. It could mean a very specific instance, with their enemy detained in s lab with vast resources towards doing this, or it could mean a super weapon on the battlefield that eats huge amounts of power to accomplish, or it could mean one guy made a glove and waves his hands. Theres no specifics for you to claim the sweeping degree of their abilities.

Also, I never said they can turn only space marines into liquid adamantium. I gave an example of vague writing and pointed out how some feats of power can be exaggerated by looking at established facts and noting a strong connection.

If you use vague examples, you have to treat them like vague examples, not solid fact. And you cant take a word like "foes" and just add meaning to include "everything they ever deal with" and have any kind of factual basis for the arguement.

With the liquid adamantium example, vague writing can say they can turn their foes into that, while specifics could mean "they liquified a space marine by molecular dehiscence, and him and his adamantium armor melted", or it could mean "they changed the very molecular makeup of the organic matter of a random fungal ork into inorganic super alloy".. for some reason. The point being that we dont know specifically how or in what variables they do that, so you cant claim a specificity to it.

Also, the necrons have never destroyed gods. They shattered the essence of c'tan, who are a type of powerful creature in the galaxy, who they worship as gods. But they're not on the same scale of the real gods in the galaxy. They can make technology that can calm the warp in areas, but chaos can still form there. Daemons can still be summoned, and those technologies can be overpowered, or even used in chaos' favor. Just look at the Blackstone fortresses or noctilith crown

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roboemperor wrote:
And since "trasmit" in computer science is simply "copy and delete original"...

Um. I have never seen that definition associated with that term in computer science in all my years working with computers. Transmit just means the movement of data. Everything on the internet is copied to the requesting system and rarely ever deleted from the source, but is still considered transmitted. Not to mention, deleting an AI on transmit means you cannot mass produce AI with this definition. Sorry, but it actually makes it easier to replicate AI if it is not deleted after transmission.

As a side note, a while back I was making a fan-dex of Gundam Wing converting the Mobile Suits to battlesuits (Super-Heavies weren't really a thing when I started it). One of the units is something called a "mobile doll" and is an AI-operated Mobile Suit. If I had ever got around to actually building the models for it, those units which had this conversion would have been using the Drone bodies as the heads to help mark them out.

Phew!

Just one question though... Are there any recent video games featuring the Tau as a playable race? As far as I'm aware, you're limited to Dawn Of War: Dark Crusade, Battlefleet Gothic, and the ancient Fire Warrior...

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Crispy78 wrote:
Phew!

Just one question though... Are there any recent video games featuring the Tau as a playable race? As far as I'm aware, you're limited to Dawn Of War: Dark Crusade, Battlefleet Gothic, and the ancient Fire Warrior...

The one that followed Dark Crusade had Tau as well, Soulstorm. They started on a moon in an area that gave the Orbital Strike upgrade.

They also allowed a commander in the Dawn of War 2 Retribution co-op multiplayer Last Stand missions.

Nothing beyond that, I know of so far, which leave the BFG last one, I believe, for the big names. There may be some mobile version I don't know of, but there is a huge emphasis on the Imperium only otherwise.

Have to admit, Tau are really good in Dark Crusade and Soulstorm, though. Not turrets, but a lot of fun to use otherwise.

roboemperor wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

roboemperor wrote:
And since "trasmit" in computer science is simply "copy and delete original"...

Um. I have never seen that definition associated with that term in computer science in all my years working with computers. Transmit just means the movement of data. Everything on the internet is copied to the requesting system and rarely ever deleted from the source, but is still considered transmitted. Not to mention, deleting an AI on transmit means you cannot mass produce AI with this definition. Sorry, but it actually makes it easier to replicate AI if it is not deleted after transmission.

As a side note, a while back I was making a fan-dex of Gundam Wing converting the Mobile Suits to battlesuits (Super-Heavies weren't really a thing when I started it). One of the units is something called a "mobile doll" and is an AI-operated Mobile Suit. If I had ever got around to actually building the models for it, those units which had this conversion would have been using the Drone bodies as the heads to help mark them out.

Data doesn't "move" in computers. When you "move" a file from a USB to a hard disk, the computer copies the file, pastes the file in the hard disk, and then deletes the file on the USB.
When you defrag your hard drive, your computer copies a file, pastes that file to its new address, then deletes the original file.
When you download something, you aren't moving a file. You are copying and pasting a file on the internet.
etc. etc.

That's actually what I said, except data does move in computers through the datalines from memory point to memory point. "Copying" data is the base method of transmitting data. In fact, "Move" was a actual DOS command you had to use if you didn't want to leave the original on the source and go back and delete it with a separate command. Copying was far faster because it left out the step of deleting the original (and was usually wiser to make sure that the copy worked properly, the first three rules of computers are: Backup; Backup; and Always Remember and Never Forget to Backup).

If you drag and drop a file from your hard drive to your USB, you are only copying the data. You actually have to go out of your way to Cut the file first to actually do a delete with the same move. The operating systems treat hard drives a little bit different now in that dragging and dropping on the same drive does actually commit to altering the memory address references more than copying the data, but that's more background stuff.

Either way, "transmit" is not "only copy, paste, and delete", but pretty much just the "copy" portion.

roboemperor wrote:
So when this guy is "transmitting wirelessly" to a new body because his old body is gonna die, what he is actually doing is copying himself into the new body and then deleting himself in the old body.

That's why all sci-fi that has people "upload" themselves into virtual space can never happen. What actually is happening is you are making a copy of yourself in virtual space and then killing yourself in your organic body. So that virtual you isn't really you.

You can never "move" data. Only copy, paste, and delete..

May I introduce you to the Safehold series by David Weber? A good read and may help you out in understanding the concepts properly. They actually had people copying their personalities in to computers to do research in heuristic modes to compress the time needed to process them. They could also download a copy in to an android boy to do dangerous work or sports and then reupload the experiences back in to flesh and blood body. It stops more from an overall downgrade in human technology AND the physical bodies otherwise dying, but death was not a part of copying the human's mind on to the non-organic format.

And no, there is no "only" in copying, pasting, and deleting to move data. One can actually just copy or copy & paste, unless one is using the "move" command (but that's something only really used with Linux and DOS any more). That's all the internet is in the end. Transmitting data copy by copy across the vast interconnected wires and signals. Deleting data has always been an extra step, which is why it is so dangerous and easy to get away with.

Do you really believe that downloading a game requires them to build the game again to download? How do you think CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs work when you cannot delete the data on those discs? You cannot write to those discs to erase the data.

But what do I know, I've only been using computers since 5 1/4" disks were the standard medium and hard drives were just a pipe dream for home owners, restructured my parent's DOS to run the Doom shareware and they weren't cut out of Windows 3.1, building computers for the last couple of decades, and had IT as a profession.

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Not necessarily. Not in a universe that has machines that acquire true sentience and can become corrupted by chaos and have literal spirits. That is to say, you can, but are you 100% sure you're not loosing something in the process of copying your AI?
Also, what the hell lol. Here we are are discussing necron, nids and chaos and suddenly Tau come in out of nowhere snatching the title XD.
And in terms of titans, humans were well capable of making AI titans in a sense.

Humans have been around for quite some time. The men of iron were initially created by man, who then went on to create monstrosities like the mechanivores or sun-snuffers. They had a level of tech that could easily compare to Necrons.
And we know that at least one of the men of iron bots survived, so with tech like that, who knows what else is out there. At the very least there is precedent of AI titans in humans,.
Of course there is not a snowballs chance in hell of seeing anything of this in a video game or even the tabletop.

There is also Pax Imperialis by Gordon Rennie, which is canon, so there are at least 2 survivors actually.

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Wackiness. I think I mentioned an "all drone army" conversion previously, did I not? Google "tau all drone army" and see something awesome.

I still think your hang up with tyranids "not using 100%" of all matter is pretty bonkers, though. A cut off planetary assault force not having the capabilities of what their biofleets can do doesnt exactly prove anything against them. Especially with there being no proof other races -can- use 100% of all mass in the galaxy.

Also, one quick google search shows wraithbone isn't made from nothing, but its solidified warp power that has to be harvested from the warp. So they're taking the same stuff daemons are made out of, making it look pretty, and forming it into psychic living metal that can sort of heal and grow because it's practically alive.

Oh well. Regardless of minor minutia and accuracy, good job picking a team. Hopefully you actually get into the hobby proper someday.

As a side note and a thought on direction, I saw someone model some Legion of Everblight models from WarmaHordes using a whole bunch of other bits to make them look robotic.

The idea of a techno-organic horde in the shape of Tyranids could work. It's not outside of the realm of possibility when you look at the Adeptus Mechanicus (both Imperium and Dark/Chaos).

It could be a modelling nightmare, though.

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