Gladius says there are multiple Hive Minds

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**pm713**

Oooo people who know people who know people who know people who worked at the stores. That's a very reliable and clear insight to GW's inner workings alright. It doesn't mesh with my talking with managers though - they know as much as we do at most. Until the last minute anyway.

**roboemperor**

pm713 wrote:
Oooo people who know people who know people who know people who worked at the stores. That's a very reliable and clear insight to GW's inner workings alright. It doesn't mesh with my talking with managers though - they know as much as we do at most. Until the last minute anyway.

What does that have to do with the fact that developers get smacked for trying to do anything without GW approval?

**Overread**

roboemperor wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oooo people who know people who know people who know people who worked at the stores. That's a very reliable and clear insight to GW's inner workings alright. It doesn't mesh with my talking with managers though - they know as much as we do at most. Until the last minute anyway.

What does that have to do with the fact that developers get smacked for trying to do anything without GW approval?

You are aware that the branching stories in Battlefleet Gothic 2 has one where the Tyranids win - one where the Necrons win, Chaos and Imperials too? They are all happening in the same place at the same time - they can't all win. Yet they are in the game and approved by GW.

Heck the wars and campaigns in Warhammer Total War 2 are the same.

They are games based on the lore and setting. They aim for the feel and asthetics and most of the technical details being correct. Furthermore don't overlook the fact that the info we get on the tyranids, even in their own campaign, is only deductions by humans. They can be wrong.

Suffice it to say that the technical details of the Tyranids have never been spelled out ,but all the lore we have thus far supports the view of one singular Hive Mind concept. It's only through outside intervention that small "independent appearing" groups of tyranids have been formed; yet as we've only scant understanding of them, it might not even be how its presumed to work.

In the end all the lore barring 1 game in 1 mission (that might not be pure cannon since not all the races can win the Gladius battle at once either) agrees with the single Hive Mind approach.

**roboemperor**

Overread wrote:
You are aware that the branching stories in Battlefleet Gothic 2 has one where the Tyranids win - one where the Necrons win, Chaos and Imperials too? They are all happening in the same place at the same time - they can't all win. Yet they are in the game and approved by GW.

Why do you people keep repeating this over and over? The stories are said flat out upfront as noncanon what if stories and each campaign is a what if story of that faction being victorious. What do the existence of these series of what if noncanon stories have anything at all to do with GW setting boundaries to what developers can do with their IP and smacking them down if they betray anything?

Are you saying GW's allowance of noncanon what if stories is evidence that they don't give a **** about what developers do with their IPs? What relevance do noncanon what if stories have with the topic at hand?

**Insectum7**

^So the video game is both absolutely canon, but alao not canon.

**roboemperor**

Insectum7 wrote:
^So the video game is both absolutely canon, but alao not canon.

So lets see

One video game outright upfront tells you that it's a non canon what if story.
Other video games like DoW and Gladius don't say it's a noncanon what if story. And in DoW's case there's even a canon. Space Marines won all but Soulstorm, which the Orks won.

Your logic is to somehow group all videogames into the same category as bfga2 because.......?

EDIT: If you feel someone is being impolite, please don't escalate.

**Kayback**

Andersp90 wrote:
Codex Tyranids, 8th edition, page 7:

"THE HIVE MIND

The Magos Biologis of the Imperium categorises each Tyranid hive fleet as a separate force, an individual entity that competes with other hive fleets for resources. Indeed, each is self-sufficient, appearing to exhibit different strategies and developing unique creatures to overcome its prey. However, the truth is more complex, for each hive fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage. The Tyranids’ numbers are vast beyond counting, swarms so large that they block out the very stars, yet each and every creature is but a single cell in the living body of a single super-organism.
Every thought and action, every spark of life in the Tyranid race, is bound and interlinked into a single unfathomable consciousness, a great entity that stretches across hundreds of light years of space. This gestalt sentience is known as the Hive Mind. It holds all Tyranids in a psychic bond that enables them to act in perfect synchronicity. Under the influence of this ancient consciousness, the Tyranids have fed on countless planets and devoured civilisations since time immemorial."

The tyranid codex > low budget pc game.

The thing is though, in universe ideas can be wrong. Those Magos Biologis may be completely wrong and not break cannon.

This leaves plenty of wriggle room for retcons that technically aren't retcons but are better understandings or newer discoveries.

**pm713**

roboemperor wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Oooo people who know people who know people who know people who worked at the stores. That's a very reliable and clear insight to GW's inner workings alright. It doesn't mesh with my talking with managers though - they know as much as we do at most. Until the last minute anyway.

What does that have to do with the fact that developers get smacked for trying to do anything without GW approval?

Considering how unreliable your 'sources' are it means that it's starting to seem like you can't deal with being wrong more than anything else.

**roboemperor**

pm713 wrote:
Considering how unreliable your 'sources' are it means that it's starting to seem like you can't deal with being wrong more than anything else.

Lets see
I say GW is incredibly protective of their IP
You respond by saying gamestore managers are kept in the dark
I point out that has absolutely nothing to do with GW being incredibly protective of their IP. Your comment neither confirms nor denies this. It is totally off topic.

And now you accuse me of being incapable of being wrong.

I've had enough. I'm not gonna waste any more of my time reading posts of condescending people who fail at basic logic, throw nonsequitors out, and insults anyone who points out the flaws in their terrible "arguments". Both you and Insectum7 are on my ignore list now.

**Overread**

We aren't saying that GW isn't legally protective of their IP. We are saying that GW isn't strict in the consistence of specific details regarding certain aspects of their own lore.

Furthermore even where they are, there are elements in the style of information being presented through the lore which makes some deductions unreliable. Such as the note that most Tyranid specific details are written by Imperial Scientists rather than from the Tyranids point of view. The scientist can be wrong - indeed when you consider how Imperial science is conducted they've a greater chance of being wrong about Xenos stuff than being right.

It's a bit like how Victorian Scientists and "rich naturalists" could be. They could collect vast amounts of empirical data, however there were certain flaws in their thinking which affected some results. A notable one being that many were very religious, which influenced the conclusions and questions they would use in their science. Granted because they were Victorians and not from the 41st millennium, they were sane rather than insane so by and large valid science did win through in the end.

Finally when it comes to 3rd party created content it doesn't have to remain true to the specifics of the lore, just true to the specifics of the aesthetics of the lore. By their very nature many will break bits of lore for their own internal stories (eg Gladius, BFG1 and 2, Dawn of War Dark Crusade all have multiple races winning the same war).

**pm713**

roboemperor wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Considering how unreliable your 'sources' are it means that it's starting to seem like you can't deal with being wrong more than anything else.

Lets see
I say GW is incredibly protective of their IP
You respond by saying gamestore managers are kept in the dark
I point out that has absolutely nothing to do with GW being incredibly protective of their IP. Your comment neither confirms nor denies this. It is totally off topic.

And now you accuse me of being incapable of being wrong.

I've had enough. I'm not gonna waste any more of my time reading posts of condescending people who fail at basic logic, throw nonsequitors out, and insults anyone who points out the flaws in their terrible "arguments". Both you and Insectum7 are on my ignore list now.

"I talked around people who know people who know people who know people that worked in game stores.

They all unanimously say
1. GW is greedy as hell
2. GW is incredibly protective of their IP and everyone must be within the boundaries they set for them.

So any of you who says GW sells their IP to anyone is making a baseless claim."

That is what you said and what I was referring to.

The relevance is quite clear and you need to chill out.

**roboemperor**

Overread wrote:
We aren't saying that GW isn't legally protective of their IP. We are saying that GW isn't strict in the consistence of specific details regarding certain aspects of their own lore.

No, that's what YOU are saying not "we". And it's plausible which is why I haven't been refuting it.

Overread wrote:
Furthermore even where they are, there are elements in the style of information being presented through the lore which makes some deductions unreliable. Such as the note that most Tyranid specific details are written by Imperial Scientists rather than from the Tyranids point of view. The scientist can be wrong - indeed when you consider how Imperial science is conducted they've a greater chance of being wrong about Xenos stuff than being right.

Only the quest is in the perspective of a scientist. The other stuff is in the perspective of an omniscient narrator.

Overread wrote:
Finally when it comes to 3rd party created content it doesn't have to remain true to the specifics of the lore, just true to the specifics of the aesthetics of the lore. By their very nature many will break bits of lore for their own internal stories (eg Gladius, BFG1 and 2, Dawn of War Dark Crusade all have multiple races winning the same war).

Your claim isn't supported (3rd party can be lazy regarding to the lore) except by reddit quotes. My claim (GW is incredibly protective of their IP) isn't supported except by a couple of people who worked with them. So the discussion cannot move forward until we get an official quote directly from GW or a game developer.

But you're wrong about the other parts. Dark Crusade has space marines as the canon victor. Soulstorm has Orks as the canon victor. THe first two DoW and and DoW II have space marines as the canon victor. BFG2 is directly stated upfront to be just a what if story so there is no canon victor. None of the game's campaigns ever happened. And Gladius is like DoW before the sequels selected a canon victor.

**Tyran**

Gladius is canon, but being canon in the 40k IP is kinda meaningless because of how large is the IP and GW doesn't have a canon policy beyond "everything and nothing is true". 40k is designed to be an open sand-box for both the player and the writer, with no "correct" interpretation of the lore.

If you want to prefer Gladius' lore over a Codex, that is valid. What is not valid is trying to impose your preferences over everyone else.

**roboemperor**

Tyran wrote:
What is not valid is trying to impose your preferences over everyone else.

Where have I been doing that? Show me where I did that

I heard from people who worked with GW that GW is incredibly protective of their IP.
I shared that here.
A now ignored user threw a nonsequitor into the discussion.
I pointed out his comment was a nonsequitor
Overread posted some stuff but some of it was incorrect.
I pointed the incorrect parts out. Which is specifically using a game that outright upfront states they are noncanon what if story as proof of anything.
A 2nd now ignored user insulted me.
I responded to that
The first now ignored user insulted me.
I put those two users on my ignore list.
Overread once again comes in with a coherent argument.
You accuse me of trying to force my preferences on others.

**Tyran**

Well at the very least you are extremely defensive.

**pm713**

Excuse you robo, I pointed out that your "source" of low level managers separated from you by two layers of other 'people' was ridiculous which is a valid point.

You're the one claiming that GW is both protective of their IP and retcons it whenever they want.

**Andersp90**

Kayback wrote:

The thing is though, in universe ideas can be wrong. Those Magos Biologis may be completely wrong and not break cannon.

The magos biologis represents the IoM, and how its understands the tyranids. The next few paragraphs are from the point of view of an all-knowing 3rd person narrator.

The tyranids codexes has always been represented this way: "the IoM thinks that xxxx.. but in reality xxx..".

I dont understand where this notion, that the tyrnaid codexes are told only from the point of view of the imperium, comes from (people who has never read a tyranid codex?).

**Overread**

Andersp90 wrote:

I dont understand where this notion, that the tyrnaid codexes are told only from the point of view of the imperium, comes from (people who has never read a tyranids codex?).

It never was.

3rd edition Codex only has a few actual solid pages of lore and its all Imperium based.
Same for the 4th edition - though there's more of a split between Imperial studies and Narrator but it shifts back and forth the whole time with a heavy focus on the Imperium. Suffice to say it strongly suggests that the information presented relates to the Imperium.

I don't think in either there's even a quote by another Xenos force relating to the Tyranids. It's not until the 5th that we actually see some relation to the Tyranids from a different aspects. By and large the Imperium remains the main voice - again the Imperium gets hit the most in general - but we start to see more Eldar and Tau influences too. This was the first Codex with a real meaty lore segment.

The more recent have erred closer to a more narrators voice approach, but almost always in relation to other species and the Imperium. Again we see this general view that what we know of the Tyranids is what other races (mostly the Imperium) knows of them rather than what the Tyranids know of themselves. Hence why we've no idea what that huge planet they are building is for. If another race were doing it we'd know what it was for or know that its purpose was intrigue being deliberately kept secret.

**Andersp90**

Overread wrote:
Andersp90 wrote:

I dont understand where this notion, that the tyrnaid codexes are told only from the point of view of the imperium, comes from (people who has never read a tyranids codex?).

It never was.

3rd edition Codex only has a few actual solid pages of lore and its all Imperium based.
Same for the 4th edition - though there's more of a split between Imperial studies and Narrator but it shifts back and forth the whole time with a heavy focus on the Imperium. Suffice to say it strongly suggests that the information presented relates to the Imperium.

I guess that is true (the 4th edition codex has a fair bit more lore than 2nd and 3rd though).

In 5th and onwards, we start to get more informtion from a 3rd person narrator (information unknown to the IoM etc).

**Tyran**

Kayback wrote:

The thing is though, in universe ideas can be wrong. Those Magos Biologis may be completely wrong and not break cannon.

This leaves plenty of wriggle room for retcons that technically aren't retcons but are better understandings or newer discoveries.

You are misunderstanding the text. It is not written from the Magos Biologis POV, but from third person narrator. The narrator knows more than the IoM or the other races, but still leaves a lot of mystery and unanswered questions.

**Andersp90**

Tyran wrote:
. It is not written from the Magos Biologis POV, but from third person narrator. The narrator knows more than the IoM or the other races, but still leaves a lot of mystery and unanswered questions.

Yes, that was my point.

**Kayback**

Andersp90 wrote:
Tyran wrote:
. It is not written from the Magos Biologis POV, but from third person narrator. The narrator knows more than the IoM or the other races, but still leaves a lot of mystery and unanswered questions.

Yes, that was my point.

Bah fuzzy recollection. I haven't read the Tyranid codex in a while, I thought it was written in the voice of the in-universe IoM findings.

**Lord Zarkov**

When discussing what counts as canon, always worth remembering this quote - the only time GW have ever declared an ‘official’ canon policy:

Marc Gascoigne, then head of BL wrote:"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about “canonical background” will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history…

Here’s our standard line: Yes it’s all official, but remember that we’re reporting back from a time where stories aren’t always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let’s put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex… and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a “big question” doesn’t matter. It’s all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is “Yes and no” or perhaps “Sometimes”. And for me, that’s the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be “sometimes” or “it varies” or “depends”.

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It’s a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me."

**Niiai**

I have played through the campains of 3 of the rases now on gladius. I can conclude that I find the writing to be really bad.

**Gregor Samsa**

"Since each of us was several, there was already quite a crowd."

The idea of a hive mind is referencing the distribution of consciousness. Much of the science is undecided on what that means/how that functions. Is intelligence the sum total of a brain? or is it also present in the micro aspects of the neurons which comprise it.

I think framing the Hive Mind as either One or Many is a misreading. If consciousness is distributed, One is Many.

**Tyran**

Devastation of Baal pushes the idea that the Hive Mind is one being with endless bodies.

**roboemperor**

We have official things saying
Tyranids eat minerals solely for the microorganisms that reside on the minerals. They can't digest minerals.
Tyranids eat minerals and mineral content is what they also look for in selecting planets to devour.
Tyranids eat metal and target AdMech facilities for already refined metals.
Tyranids can't eat metal which is why AdMech beat the Tyranids in a war of attrition on Lucifer
Tyranids can't reproduce without a Norn Queen, Dominatrix, or Tervigon
Tyranids can reproduce from any Tyranid
Tyranids avoid necrons
Tyranids don't avoid necrons

You get the point. So the Hive Mind being multiple or single is not gonna be resolved until repeatedly future official things shoot it down as a total impossibility.

**Andersp90**

roboemperor wrote:

You get the point. So the Hive Mind being multiple or single is not gonna be resolved until repeatedly future official things shoot it down as a total impossibility.

The fact that the hive mind is "one" has been specified in every tyranid codex since 5th edition, with every tyranid brain, acting like a single neuron in an impossibly vast super organism.

Its even stated in 6th and 8th edition, that the fleets compete with each other, despite being part of the same single consciousness. So Gladius doesn't bring anything new to the table.

5th:

6th:

**Overread**

I have to say I rather like how GW has changed the instinctive behaviour rules in the game to reflect it a bit better. In the past Tyranids without synapse were almost useless - hunkering down or even more likely to retreat. It also meant opponents fast learned to focus on the synapse threat above all else.

Today taking out the synapse removes some control options, but your gaunts remain very effective killers - as they should be. They remain powerful fighting units, just lacking the overarching guidance and strategic control offered by higher lifeforms.

**pm713**

Personally I preferred the idea they tear each other apart because they're ultra aggressive but have no control.