Gladius says there are multiple Hive Minds

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

pm713 wrote:
Personally I preferred the idea they tear each other apart because they're ultra aggressive but have no control.

Prefer that too, but as far as I'm concern it is very much because of Dawn of War 2.

**Tyran**

That's why older codexes had the Feed, Lurk and Hunt subclasses of Instinct Behaviour, as different Tyranids have different behaviours. Some are extremely aggressive and had the Feed rule, other were the complete opposite and had the Lurk rule and Hunt was for those that liked to fire a lot at range.

**roboemperor**

Andersp90 wrote:
roboemperor wrote:

You get the point. So the Hive Mind being multiple or single is not gonna be resolved until repeatedly future official things shoot it down as a total impossibility.

The fact that the hive mind is "one" has been specified in every tyranid codex since 5th edition, with every tyranid brain, acting like a single neuron in an impossibly vast super organism.

Its even stated in 6th and 8th edition, that the fleets compete with each other, despite being part of the same single consciousness. So Gladius doesn't bring anything new to the table.

Gladius came out after all those codices.

5th edition says Tyranids avoided Solemnance. War in the Museum said they didn't avoid it and Trazyn dodged them. Which is right?

Lore is constantly shifting at the whim of GW writers. Since gladius is more recent than your codices its lore is valid until future material shoots it down, not past material. Your quoting of past material doesn't really do anything.

**Andersp90**

roboemperor wrote:
Andersp90 wrote:
roboemperor wrote:

You get the point. So the Hive Mind being multiple or single is not gonna be resolved until repeatedly future official things shoot it down as a total impossibility.

The fact that the hive mind is "one" has been specified in every tyranid codex since 5th edition, with every tyranid brain, acting like a single neuron in an impossibly vast super organism.

Its even stated in 6th and 8th edition, that the fleets compete with each other, despite being part of the same single consciousness. So Gladius doesn't bring anything new to the table.

Gladius came out after all those codices.

5th edition says Tyranids avoided Solemnance. War in the Museum said they didn't avoid it and Trazyn dodged them. Which is right?

Lore is constantly shifting at the whim of GW writers. Since gladius is more recent than your codices its lore is valid until future material shoots it down, not past material. Your quoting of past material doesn't really do anything.

What you see in gladius is mentioned and explained in both 6th and 8th edition. There is no cannon conflict here?

**roboemperor**

Andersp90 wrote:
What you see in gladius is mentioned and explained in both 6th and 8th edition. There is no cannon conflict here?

Yeah, I misunderstood you. Sorry.

Ok so lets just get some facts out here.

Fact1:
Tyranid Hive Fleets compete with each other.
Gladius Tyranids outright kill each other.

Fact2:
Tyranid Hive Fleets consume fallen hive fleets to obtain genetic data. What they adapted to and why that kind of stuff.
Gladius Tyranids had to connect with Hive Fleet Tiamet to learn how to kill Gladius and disintegrate Gladius.

So from this we can tell, the Hive Mind splits itself apart and then i guess merges back to the real hive mind? Kinda like Chaos God and their Greater Daemons? Independent yet fully subordinate and reabsorbed into the god at the god's whim? I mean, the Hive Minds don't know what the other Hive Fleets know, so that suggests those are two different Hive Minds, yet they are all the same Hive Mind so...?

I don't know. I'm a think about this later.

**Andersp90**

roboemperor wrote:

Gladius Tyranids outright kill each other.

That has also been mentioned in the codex lore - I assume to give a lore reason for tyranids vs tyranids TT games.

Fact2:
Tyranid Hive Fleets consume fallen hive fleets to obtain genetic data. What they adapted to and why that kind of stuff.
Gladius Tyranids had to connect with Hive Fleet Tiamet to learn how to kill Gladius and disintegrate Gladius.

So from this we can tell, the Hive Mind splits itself apart and then i guess merges back to the real hive mind? Kinda like Chaos God and their Greater Daemons? Independent yet fully subordinate and reabsorbed into the god at the god's whim? I mean, the Hive Minds don't know what the other Hive Fleets know, so that suggests those are two different Hive Minds, yet they are all the same Hive Mind so...?

I don't know. I'm a think about this later.

Its hard to tell at this point. In 4th edition (or 5th, I cant remember), it was stated that destroying a hive fleet would not prevent any information gained, from being passed on to the rest of the tyranid fleets/the hive mind. That seems(?) to have been retconned with "valedor"/8th edition.

Each hive fleet might just act as individual thoughts within one greater consciousness. Who knows.

**roboemperor**

Andersp90 wrote:
Its hard to tell at this point. In 4th edition (or 5th, I cant remember), it was stated that destroying a hive fleet would not prevent any information gained, from being passed on to the rest of the tyranid fleets/the hive mind. That seems(?) to have been retconned with "valedor"/8th edition.

Each hive fleet might just act as individual thoughts within one greater consciousness. Who knows.

Share memories but different opinion? Yeah I can see that being one hive mind with multiple personalities or ideas or something.
But not sharing memories and knowledge? No, that's a definite separate entity. Not a single entity with split personalities.

Hive Fleet Hydra prioritizes consuming failed Tyranid invasions to gain data about the defenders of that invasion.

I'm just gonna think there are multiple hive minds that are cloud computing which makes them a "single" entity. As it's the only interpretation that makes sense atm.

**Overread**

Consider that whilst the Tyranid system has infinite possibilities there's clearly limitations on its data transfer within Synapse. Whilst Synapse is very powerful it has clear limitations and restrictions. Hence why every single Tyranid isn't a Synapse creature. Furthermore its likely why Tyranids have their own mind and require direction through Synapse rather than taking all their orders through synapse.

As a result it might well be that Synapse simply cannot allow for the constant transfer of information between hiveships. It's just too much information flying back and forth.

As a result only what is required is transferred at any one time. This allows for there to be inconsistency in terms of different hive fleets having different information. It's simply not within the Tyranids benefit and means to keep all data flying back and forth at all times. This might even be some form of vestigial element that comes from a time when the Hive was smaller and when Norn Queens might even have been individual.

We've also seen that long distances can break Synapse communication. Many Genestealer Cults operate well outside of regular Synapse range, often only gaining sufficient signal when they swell their numbers. Clearly those Stealer broods are alone, operating within their own miniature HiveMind. And yet that Hive Mind never overtly works against the Tyranid cause. Perhaps it is a separate HiveMind with its own strategic focus; however its goals, personality (as much as it has one) and its overall unity remain the same as the core Hive Mind. So we never see proper civil war within the Tyranids. The closest we get are supposed weapons tests between Hive Fleets.

In addition we have seen the Imperium trick tyranids into attacking other broods by changing/modification of the synapse signal. This might suggest, again, a past when there were more Hive Minds and that remains a vestigial element within the Swarm; but never powerful enough to subvert the single unity that they now have.

**Andersp90**

roboemperor wrote:
Andersp90 wrote:
Its hard to tell at this point. In 4th edition (or 5th, I cant remember), it was stated that destroying a hive fleet would not prevent any information gained, from being passed on to the rest of the tyranid fleets/the hive mind. That seems(?) to have been retconned with "valedor"/8th edition.

Each hive fleet might just act as individual thoughts within one greater consciousness. Who knows.

But not sharing memories and knowledge? No, that's a definite separate entity. Not a single entity with split personalities.

Yet, that is what is hinted at in the 8th edition codex, and it is supported by several BL novels ("the devastation of baal", "valedor", "wraith flight" etc).

Here is a quote from Valedor:

Spoiler:

That might not compute with the human mind, but then again, should it? From the devastation of baal:

Spoiler:

The invader was Hive Fleet Leviathan, by Imperial designation, though the governing intelligence of the hive mind made no such distinctions between the component parts of its body. To its incomprehensibly vast intellect, Leviathan was a limb, a foot or an arm. If the hive mind regarded Leviathan as distinct from the other fleets devouring the galaxy in some way, it was by categories too alien for men to understand.
From across the cold gulfs of intergalactic space the hive fleets had come, moving from one feeding ground to the next. The hive mind did not know and did not care what its food called itself, but noted, in its alien way, the strangeness of this prey-cluster; an environment where the realities of the mind and form were intermingled. There was risk there, but good hunting in the dangerous shoals. The galaxy teemed with life, and the hive mind glutted itself on a staggering array of biological abundance.
From the human point of view, the tyrannic wars had raged for close to a half millennium. In that time, hundreds of Imperial worlds had been devoured. Several minor races had been consumed. Thousands of unknown planets outside the Imperium’s notice had been turned from living orbs to rocky spheres that would never bear life again. Had the High Lords of Terra known how devastating the tyranids truly were, they may have acted sooner.
Like the mythical plagues of locusts of Old Earth, the tyranids stripped everything they came across bare. With each feast the hive mind became stronger, absorbing the genetic profiles of everything it devoured and adding their strengths to its own. With every new creature eaten, its repertoire of genetic tricks grew. When it encountered a threat, it adapted. Its methods became more efficient, its fleets more numerous. Its creatures proliferated and multiplied, the essences of the galaxy’s worlds converted into yet more elements of the never-ending swarms. So overwhelming was the threat it posed, the race had been declared Periculo Summa Magna, and was deemed by many departments within the Imperium’s higher echelons as the most serious challenge to mankind’s continued existence.
They were wrong about that, but only by a little. These were dangerous years, well blessed with horrors.
Nevertheless, the hive mind did not advance unopposed. There were brave men and women, heroes all, who stood against it no matter that the odds were impossible, and death was their only reward.
Imperial losses were many. Victory was rare. At many junctures the Blood Angels Space Marines had defied Hive Fleet Leviathan, stealing away its food, and in some cases destroying its splinter fleets in their entirety. The hive mind responded to them as it did to other threats in the prey-cluster, creating new beasts to beat the defences of its prey, improving those it already possessed, and devising new strategies. All to no avail. Though pushed back, the red prey warriors fought on. At Cryptus the Blood Angels performed one last supreme effort, destroying a tendril of the greater whole, in truth a trivial victory at the cost of a rich system.
Nothing could halt Leviathan’s encroachment on the Red Scar. After Cryptus there was Baal, home world of the Blood Angels, lying directly in the swarm’s path.
This was not accidental.
The sages of the Imperium thought the hive mind a non-sentient intelligence. They believed the actions of the myriad creatures in its swarms were performed instinctively, and that the sheer numbers of interactions between them gave rise to complex behaviour. At the very highest level these behaviours were remarkable, but only had the semblance of thought. Ultimately instinct drove the hive fleets, they said, not free will. Similar false intelligences had been witnessed so very many times in social animals across space, after all, from the ants of ancient Earth to the thought-trees of Demarea. The hive mind’s actions could be ascribed to sentient consideration, but the sages insisted they were nothing of the sort.
The biologans held the hive mind to be only a complicated animal, a supreme predator driven by a devastatingly powerful reactive mind, nevertheless devoid of soul. It was an automaton, they said. Unfeeling. It was as unaware of what it did as the wind is unaware of the cliff whose face it scours away, grain by grain. The hive mind was biological mechanics writ large. Mind from mindlessness.
The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man’s feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive.
The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.
And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind’s endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.
The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

Can't remember if someone already mentionned the norn queens. If I remember well, the norn queens are said to "deploy/create" the hive mind while commanding the hive fleet. There must be a link between all the hive ships and the different norns because the Hydra phenomenon means that for each norn queen killed, the hives may spawn others.

From there, I'd say the most suitable approach would be the hive mind is a great global conscionsness of all tryranids but subdivises amongst each hive flleet through the norn queens who whime being part of it have got a certain degree of autonomy.

**Andersp90**

Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Can't remember if someone already mentionned the norn queens. If I remember well, the norn queens are said to "deploy/create" the hive mind while commanding the hive fleet. There must be a link between all the hive ships and the different norns because the Hydra phenomenon means that for each norn queen killed, the hives may spawn others.

From there, I'd say the most suitable approach would be the hive mind is a great global conscionsness of all tryranids but subdivises amongst each hive flleet through the norn queens who whime being part of it have got a certain degree of autonomy.

The hive mind is the gestalt consciousness of every living tyranid organism. It is not created by the norn-queens specifically.

**Iracundus**

A human's digestive system is under control of the enteric nervous system, which operates independently of the brain though there is some communication between the two via nerves. However the human perceives itself as one entity.

Think of that as an analogy for the Hive Mind and its component fleets.

**roboemperor**

Ok so if we put everything together...

The Hive Mind is a solitary mind.

A Hive Mind is created when enough Tyranids are nearby. The best sense I can make of this is that every Tyranid has two parts in their mind. One part is their mindless feral behavior. The other part is a "hive mind node". Which is like a single computer in a cloud. And just like the bigger the cloud the more powerful the cloud, the more of these "hive mind nodes" there are, the more powerful and smarter the hive mind is. So a bigger hive fleet has a smarter and stronger hive mind.

So when two hive fleets get together, the two hive minds merge into a single super hive mind. And when the hive fleets splinter, you have multiple hive minds until the splinter fleets decide to merge again.

So important part is, despite being a "cloud", the Hive Mind is a solitary mind. There is no "consensus driven behavior". The Hive Mind is a dictator, it does whatever it wants, nothing opposes it, and it doesn't need to persuade anything to do what it wants, and its strength is directly proportional to the number of Tyranids that form the Hive Mind.

**Pacific**

I understand it's a fool's errand trying to attribute real-life science to this (and psychic gestalt-intelligences) but if the Tyranid's are meant to represent an evolutionary pinnacle, then it would make absolute sense for them to be represented by competing hives and sub-species. These would continue to compete with each other for available resources, forming ever-more effective forms of predator (while ensuring that some equilibrium is maintained, and they don't become so veracious that all of their natural resources are expended). While a single species would present itself as vulnerable to being tram-lined into an evolutionary cul-de-sac; perhaps by other predators, disease, or in the context of a space-faring species annihilation by space-borne events (asteroids, super novas etc.)

There is a real-life equivalent of this with ants, which I believe do compete as much with each other as other species (sometimes even nearby hives of the same species).

Moving to another sci-fi, there was quite a cool Dark Horse Aliens comic (I think one of the sequels to Earth Hive) which featured the Alien hives becoming fractured after the death of the queen and 'red' and 'black' Alien hives competing for dominance.

Although I suppose the sci-fi element of a super macro-intelligence that directs evolution would surpass the requirement for any kind of natural process taking place, and again we're jumping into 40k really being more of a science-fantasy with psuedo-magical elements. So please ignore everything I have just said

**Tyran**

Ultimately the true nature of the Hive Mind is mostly irrelevant. The Tyranids act as an united front at the galactic scale, the most glaring example being Leviathan teaming up and providing nourishment to Kronos or Hydra being basically a second wave after Leviathan or Leviathan and Kraken working together and almost merging in Valedor.

In some rare occasions Tyranids fight each other, but because of the nature of the Tyranids and how their logistics, production and infrastructure work, there is almost no real loss and in fact it is a win scenario as the superior Hive Fleet gains the resources and best traits of the consumed Hive Fleet (unlike for example human infighting that is always a lose-lose scenario),

Also according to Devastation of Baal the Hive Mind is stronger than the Emperor, and if each Hive Fleet has its own Hive Mind then that's a scary amount of Emperor+ scale entities attacking the galaxy.

**roboemperor**

Hydra is anti-tyranid. It actively hunts Tyranids down. So you cannot call Hydra a "united front".

While Hydra is ultimately on the same side as all Tyranids, it's less united than the other hive fleets. Because it targets Tyranids first. For both genetic data and biomass.

**Tyran**

Hydra actively hunts down defeated or dying Leviathan tendrils and in the process consumes whatever defeated those tendrils, as far as we know it never hunts healthy tendrils.

Thus for the rest of the galaxy, Hydra is basically a second wave.

**BaconCatBug**

Also isn't Kronos building something and keeping everything, even other Tyranids, away from it?

**Tyran**

That is Tiamet, and I don't recall it having interactions with other Hive Fleets.

**Arson Fire**

Dunno about other tyranids, but according to the GSC codex they're apparently happy with allowing genestealer cultists to make pilgrimages to it. They even let most of them leave again afterwards.

**Andersp90**

roboemperor wrote:
Hydra is anti-tyranid. It actively hunts Tyranids down. So you cannot call Hydra a "united front".

While Hydra is ultimately on the same side as all Tyranids, it's less united than the other hive fleets. Because it targets Tyranids first. For both genetic data and biomass.

As Tyran stated, Hydra only seems to seek out defeated hive fleets.

roboemperor wrote:

"So you cannot call Hydra a "united front".

And why do you keep pushing this argument when it has been proven false multiple times now, by both codexes and BL novels?

The whole tyranid vs tyranid was first mentioned in 4th edition, (prob to give a reason for tyranids vs tyranids on TT), and back then it was pointed out that the tyranids/hive mind were one united front.

**roboemperor**

Andersp90 wrote:
And why do you keep pushing this argument when it has been proven false multiple times now, by both codexes and BL novels?

This is the first time I said it, and even now i"m not really saying it.

I said Hydra is ultimately on the same side as other Tyranids. But cannibalizing your own splinter fleets is not a "united front".
i.e. Space Marines murdering Imperial Guardsman is not a "united front" no matter the reasoning despite both being on the same side.

----

Are Tyranids 100% warp powered? If 0 biomass is lost in a full scale intercine war, then that means 0 biomass is used for energy.

**Tyran**

There is a large difference bewteen humans killing humans and Tyranids killing Tyranids.

If a human kills another human, you have one human less.

If a Tyranid eats a Tyranid, you will still have the biomass of two Tyranids because the biomass is recycled. That's how digestion pools work after all, the Tyranids digest everything including their own troops.

**Overread**

When a Space Marine kills a guardsman he expends resources to reduce the Imperiums own resources in war. The best case is they get some "ration lard" stuff from the Guardsman...

With Tyranids one fleet consuming another isn't wasting resources, its changing them from one fleet to another. It's a violent transfer of biomatter which allows for part of their continual evolutionary approach to existing in terms of survival of the fittest.

Yes they also lose energy through the transfer, however Tyranids don't appear to worry about energy like that. They also don't theory-craft - they prefer honest battle and actual testing over dice theory.

**roboemperor**

Tyran wrote:
There is a large difference bewteen humans killing humans and Tyranids killing Tyranids.

If a human kills another human, you have one human less.

If a Tyranid eats a Tyranid, you will still have the biomass of two Tyranids because the biomass is recycled. That's how digestion pools work after all, the Tyranids digest everything including their own troops.

I'm not saying it's not. I'm just saying its not the definition of "united front".

**Tyran**

To the rest of the galaxy it is basically an united front. What matters is what the rest of the galaxy perceives of the Tyranids, because we almost never get the Tyranid pov.

**Andersp90**

roboemperor wrote:

I said Hydra is ultimately on the same side as other Tyranids. But cannibalizing your own splinter fleets is not a "united front".
i.e. Space Marines murdering Imperial Guardsman is not a "united front" no matter the reasoning despite both being on the same side.

I dont think you are getting the point. There is a huge difference.

When SMs are slaughtering the IG, its because they (or their leader more likey) have stepped over the line to heresy. The imperium do not gain anything from engagements like that, quite the opposite.

When tyranid hive fleets duke it out, the victor comes out stronger, to the benefit of the entire tyranid race.

**Overread**

Think of it like this.

If the Imperium fights 100 Guardsmen against 100 Guardsmen then at the end of the fight you might have only a few on both sides who survive and they might well be injured or crippled. Of those who are fit and healthy you have way less than the 200 you started with.

If the Tyranids fight 100 gaunts against 100 gaunts then at the end they've got 200 gaunts from the stronger of the two strains. Because any injuries, deaths and such are all reabsorbed into the hivefleet. They emerge with a more powerful end result.

Note in reality and practical situations it would likely be less than 200 gaunts as there would be lost biomatter and such; however the general point is that what you are left with is very similar and very much superior to what you started with.

With such a system Tyranids can fight each other, absorb each other and evolve. This need for combat testing and survival of the fittest appears essential for Tyranids. It's basically akin to weapon tests; only instead of numbers and theory; they use live tests which might involve whole hive fleets. It's also shown that there are often natural variations within the DNA of tyranids so that even Tyranids from the same hive fleet might have subtle differences that give advantages - Tyranids are always on the hunt for such subtle gains.

**roboemperor**

So if 100 space marines kill 100 guardsman with their barefists, and then the Ad Mech turns those 100 guardsman corpses into 100 servitors, and this ends up being a power gain,

this turns it into a "united front"?

**Overread**

roboemperor wrote:
So if 100 space marines kill 100 guardsman with their barefists, and then the Ad Mech turns those 100 guardsman corpses into 100 servitors, and this ends up being a power gain,

this turns it into a "united front"?

Yes but no.

Firstly for a united front the Guardsmen have to agree to be beaten up
Secondly the Marines would have to beat them up and hurt them only in such ways as would facilities superior augmentation installation of bionics by the ad-mech

Finally it fails because the Ad mech has to invest additional resources to rebuild the guardsmen. Furthermore there's no part in the beating up that enhances, improves or otherwise increase the quality of the end result after the Ad Mech make their adjustments. If anything the beating up actually complicates the transfer and upgrade process and might even make the process result in a reduced level of performance due to the battle damage.