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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

roboemperor wrote:
GW is incredibly protective of their IP. They blew up their deal with blizzard because of lore stuff. So I doubt Gladius or Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 or any officially licensed WH40K game is permitted to take any liberties with established lore.


Overread wrote:

More likely when they asked GW "So what are Tyrainds" they got something along the lines of "hive mind controlled swarming monsters that attack with huge hive fleets. Tyranids of different hive fleets have different focus and colourations and sometimes fight against each other as weapon tests." Which gets interpreted as each hive fleet has its own hive mind even if they are all linked.
Which to be fair might actually happen - everything we know about tyranids is filtered through other races impressions. We don't have a perfect first hand break down of all the ins and outs of Tyranids. Furthermore the way they operate might defy our understanding, so we end up with translations into a way we understand which don't quite convey the full truth. Especially when you're trying to convey those concepts with a few words rather than paragraphs


As I said before even with GW being protective of their IP it doesn't mean that things can't slip through the net; or that a narrator or Imperial study can't be wrong based on the lore. Especially about Tyranids where so little is known of them to start with. Again, like others, I wouldn't take a 3rdparty game "too" strictly to the letter. Even within GW's own internal writing from Black Library there is some variation - heck even between codex there's variations. The lore is flexible and changes and shifts around a bit. GW is protective of it, but at the same time the lore serves their needs and desires not the other way around.

Also I never heard that it was IP that caused GW and Blizzard to split. Don't forget this was WAY back when Warcraft 1 was being made (well the game that was going to be warhammer than then became warcraft 1). This is back when games were on floppy disks and Blizzard was nothing like the giant they are now and there was no way to predict they'd ever get to be like that (heck its honestly a fluke that they ever became as big as they are; esp when you consider that even before WOW they published very few games).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 21:53:45


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

roboemperor wrote:
GW is incredibly protective of their IP. They blew up their deal with blizzard because of lore stuff.


No, they didn't. GW decided they wanted to work with a more well known developer and Blizzard remembered from their DC comic games that licenses were a pain in the arse to work with, so both companies walked. Per Patrick Wyatt himself: "We had already had terrible experiences working with DC Comics on "Death and Return of Superman" and "Justice League Task Force", and wanted no similar issues for our new game."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 22:28:25


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Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

roboemperor wrote:

GW is incredibly protective of their IP. They blew up their deal with blizzard because of lore stuff. So I doubt Gladius or Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 or any officially licensed WH40K game is permitted to take any liberties with established lore.

Quite to the contrary, GW is well known for throwing their IP to anyone who asks for it. Whether small no-name video game dev teams, or authors who want to write about space marines equipped with multi-lasers, while punching tyranids hundreds of feet into the air with their bare hands (seriously look up C.S. Goto if you want a laugh).
They're incredibly protective when it comes to people using their IP without asking them, but once you've got permission, anything goes.

Even the bigger budget games take quite a few liberties with established lore.
Unless you're claiming that Abaddon was killed during the events of battlefleet gothic armada 2. Or that terminator captains grow to the size of primarchs, and perform backflips in said terminator armour like in dawn of war 3.

GW's response to all questions about conflicts in canon is that everything in their universe is seen through the lens of an unreliable narrator. Everything is true, everything is false, and that's the way they like it. GW wants it to be a framework for telling stories. How far they drift from other stories in the setting is not a concern.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/23 02:15:59


 
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Arson Fire wrote:
roboemperor wrote:
GW is incredibly protective of their IP.
Quite to the contrary, GW is well known for throwing their IP to anyone who asks for it.
Take it from someone with experience, GW doesn't just "throw" their IP at anyone. And you better believe they maintain control over what's get made and what's get said. If you're working with GW, everything you do gets approved by them. You don't just get to make gak up and hope they don't notice.

   
Made in us
Raging Ravener




I guess we have different sources. Yours is probably correct instead of mine.

What my source said was that Blizzard wanted to take too many liberties with the lore and eventually GW said **** it and left leaving Blizzard in quite a hole with half developed assets that they spent all their money on. So they made warcraft, made a ton of money, and then conducted "legally assisted copyright infringement" with that money for starcraft which resulted in a lawsuit by GW to Blizzard something about Lictor v.s. Hydralisk.

I first dismissed this, but after starcraft 2 came out and how it showed its true colors as a wh40k ripoff with nothing original in it, I started believing it.

Arson Fire wrote:
Unless you're claiming that Abaddon was killed during the events of battlefleet gothic armada 2. Or that terminator captains grow to the size of primarchs, and perform backflips in said terminator armour like in dawn of war 3.


That game outright says upfront that its a "what-if" story.
I'm pretty sure DoWIII is canon. Along with DoW II and I. As in Tau sterilizes humans to reduce their population to 0.
   
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roboemperor wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Im shocked, shocked! that a mid-budget licensed third party video game takes some liberties with established lore.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Gladius is a video game that is justifying Tyranids fighting Tyranids. I think to imply more is overthinking it.


GW is incredibly protective of their IP. They blew up their deal with blizzard because of lore stuff.

A: That was almost 30 years ago and

B: Blizzard decided not to license with GW because they had bad experiences with previously licensed ip and wanted to retain control over their creation. GW didn't "blow it up".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/23 04:25:12


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Arson Fire wrote:
Unless you're claiming that Abaddon was killed during the events of battlefleet gothic armada 2. Or that terminator captains grow to the size of primarchs, and perform backflips in said terminator armour like in dawn of war 3.


Also BFGA2 is canon. Story is a canon what-if. And the Hive Ship Designs are fully canon. Splinter fleets of Hive Fleet Leviathan can and do have hive ships that look like the hive ships in BFGA2 which is a good thing because BFGA2's hive ship designs are far, far superior than the tabletop design.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/23 05:12:14


 
   
Made in se
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I’ll just contribute with some Gladius fluff. The game is set over Imperial planet Gladius Prime where the usual 40k suspects fight it out. You can play as AM, SM, orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos and Tau. Come to think of it Eldars are currently missing from the game. Anyway you can win by killing your enemies or fulfilling a bunch of quest objectives, always ending with a ridiculously big and difficult battle. Every faction has narration whenever they accomplish certain things such as defeating an enemy, succeeding on a quest or claiming a reasource. The planet is for some reason full of kroot hounds, Catachan devils, Enslavers, ambulls, psychobuggs (forgot the name) and random mechanicus robots (most notably castellans) walking around. The main plot involves a warp storm and artifacts of vaul (which should be Eldar in origin if I’m not mistaken?). Also there’s Jokkaeros everywhere. Overall a pretty good game but I wouldn’t take anything it says about the lore to be canon. I certainly enjoyed my time with it though. Recommend it if you’re into 4X games, though it’s quite streamlined.

Here’s a link to a trailer for the game if people are interested:

Edit: List of 40k video games: Gladius, Mechanicus, Armageddon, Dawn of War, Chapter Master, Chaos Gate, Final Liberation, Space Marine, Space Hulk Deathwing, Space Hulk, Fire Warrior, Inquisitor, Squad Command, Battlefleet Gothic Armada, Deathwatch, Kill Team, Warhammmer 40k: Regicide, Carnage Champion, Storm of Vengeance, Space Crusader, Vengeance of the Blood Angels, Rights of War, Glory in Death, Combat Cards, Eternal Crusade, Space Wolves, Lost Crusade, Freeblade, Drop Assult, Legacy of Dorn: Herald of Oblivion.
If anyone claims it’s canon because it has GW IP then they are wrong. Most games on this list take extensive liberties with the lore. Gladius included. Also surely I missed a few titles in this list. Didn’t bother with numbers like DoW 1-3 or Soulstorm/Dark Crusade.

Edit 2: oh and gotta recommend Mechanicus to absolutely everyone. Game is just damn amazing and actually does the lore justice.

This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2020/05/23 09:56:23


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Longtime Dakkanaut





Auckland, NZ

There are plenty of quotes direct from authors, editors, and game designers at GW that give their stance on consistency of canon.
Spoiler:

Gav Thorpe - Lead Designer wrote:With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.

Gav Thorpe - Lead Designer wrote:[...] is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.

Andy Hoare - Game Designer wrote:It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden - Author of books in Horus Heresy series wrote:There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP.

Marc Gascogne - Chief editor at Black Library wrote:Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Marc Gascogne - Chief editor at Black Library wrote:I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it. Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends". But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies. It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it for me. Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy. To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

So when it comes to these 3rd party games, and even their own stories taking liberties with established lore, they've said themselves that it's really not a big deal to them.
Stories where warlord titans are 500m high are official. Stories where warlord titans are 50m high are official too.
Stories where the tyranid hive mind is a single entity spanning all fleets are official. Stories where each hive fleet represents a conflicting hive mind are also official.
None of these conflicting versions are either right or wrong in the eyes of GW.

To claim that GW is protective of their canon within the stories in these 3rd party games is ridiculous, when there quite deliberately is no canon. So long as it kind of fits into the existing universe if you squint at it a bit funny, it gets the rubber stamp of approval.
As I said at the start of the thread, just pick the version you like the best.
   
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If there is no canon, what is a Space Marine?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

There is Cannon its just not a strict set of cast iron rules. There are certainly many elements that remain true, things like scales and perceptions of things are what tends to vary. Details like the size of a titan through to the size of a space ship. In general GW goes for a more cinematic faithful approach. It doesn't really matter if the battleship is 1 mile or 100 miles long; what matters is that its festooned with gothic designs, shrines, statues, gargoyles, rows of massive cannon and crewed by admech etc.... The visual cinematic experience and design approach is what GW are after remaining faithful too rather than the exact measurements and such.


   
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Raging Ravener




Can't believe I forgot to share this
https://gladiusrelicsofwar.gamepedia.com/Tyranid_quest
This is the Tyranid quest. Unlike faction meeting/defeat messages, this quest is observed from the perspective of AdMech.

The Hive Mind on Gladius is trapped because of the warp storm stuff.

Gladius created a psychic signal akin to that produced by a doomed astropath on Fecundia which somehow divided the Hive Mind against itself. The second hive mind rose to fight the first.

The Local Hive Mind Fragment <--- official terminology, reconnects with Hive Mind Tiamet briefly to learn how to destroy Gladius.

Multiple hive minds ftw.
   
Made in gb
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UK

An artificial separation not naturally occurring within the swarm itself. Furthermore its all interpreted through the eyes of an Imperial Scientist. You know the sort who believe in machines as gods and spirits and who cannot deviate from a standard design template because it goes against the will of god. Even if you're just putting a better scope onto your gun to shoot better.


It can be wrong; its just a human, a pitiful human trying to understand something far greater than itself.

   
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roboemperor wrote:
Can't believe I forgot to share this
https://gladiusrelicsofwar.gamepedia.com/Tyranid_quest
This is the Tyranid quest. Unlike faction meeting/defeat messages, this quest is observed from the perspective of AdMech.

The Hive Mind on Gladius is trapped because of the warp storm stuff.

Gladius created a psychic signal akin to that produced by a doomed astropath on Fecundia which somehow divided the Hive Mind against itself. The second hive mind rose to fight the first.

The Local Hive Mind Fragment <--- official terminology, reconnects with Hive Mind Tiamet briefly to learn how to destroy Gladius.

Multiple hive minds ftw.

That just sounds like one mind split into two temporarily, each part thinking for itself during the split, before reconnecting again. Which doesn't seem to me to be two Hive Minds, but an artificially divided single Mind.

Which, honestly, is really very cool. It displays the Hive Mind not being borne out of any single entity, but really being a consequence of a distributed network that can adapt, disconnect, reform and re-absorb itself. That's some extremely powerful adaptability.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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 So I doubt Gladius or Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 or any officially licensed WH40K game is permitted to take any liberties with established lore. 


Armada does play kind of fast and loose with established events. Example: Armada 2's Imperial Navy campaign has Admiral Spire kill Abbadon and destroy the Vengeful Spirit during the 13th black crusade, which obviously didn't happen since he (and it) are still around post indomitus crusade at Vigilus....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 19:18:41


Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
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Depending on the campaign you consider "true" many things happen. In one the Tyranids eat Admiral Spire; in another Chaos wins; heck if they'd actually kept going with the game we could have had even Tau winning.

   
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locarno24 wrote:
 So I doubt Gladius or Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 or any officially licensed WH40K game is permitted to take any liberties with established lore. 


Armada does play kind of fast and loose with established events. Example: Armada 2's Imperial Navy campaign has Admiral Spire kill Abbadon and destroy the Vengeful Spirit during the 13th black crusade, which obviously didn't happen since he (and it) are still around post indomitus crusade at Vigilus....

Presumably it takes the Dawn of War approach and only one, if any, of the storylines is canonical.

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roboemperor wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Im shocked, shocked! that a mid-budget licensed third party video game takes some liberties with established lore.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Gladius is a video game that is justifying Tyranids fighting Tyranids. I think to imply more is overthinking it.


GW is incredibly protective of their IP. They blew up their deal with blizzard because of lore stuff. So I doubt Gladius or Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 or any officially licensed WH40K game is permitted to take any liberties with established lore.


Uhh.. Dawn of War. Dawn of War takes lots of liberties with established lore.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
roboemperor wrote:
Can't believe I forgot to share this
https://gladiusrelicsofwar.gamepedia.com/Tyranid_quest
The Hive Mind on Gladius is trapped because of the warp storm stuff.

Gladius created a psychic signal akin to that produced by a doomed astropath on Fecundia which somehow divided the Hive Mind against itself. The second hive mind rose to fight the first.

The Local Hive Mind Fragment <--- official terminology, reconnects with Hive Mind Tiamet briefly to learn how to destroy Gladius.

Multiple hive minds ftw.

That just sounds like one mind split into two temporarily, each part thinking for itself during the split, before reconnecting again. Which doesn't seem to me to be two Hive Minds, but an artificially divided single Mind.

Which, honestly, is really very cool. It displays the Hive Mind not being borne out of any single entity, but really being a consequence of a distributed network that can adapt, disconnect, reform and re-absorb itself. That's some extremely powerful adaptability.


Distributed network Hivemind(s) splitting and reabsorbing each other seems very cool, and it can still explain Tyranid vs Tyranid conflict without being a mere "weapons test" -- maybe it's one splinter-Hive Mind trying to reduce the others' influence in the collective as they rejoin.

-- CONNECTING --
QUERY: STATUS : HIVE MIND SPLINTER ALPHA = 97 Norn Queens
QUERY: STATUS: HIVE MIND SPLINTER BETA = 63 Norn Queens

HIVE MIND SPLINTER ALPHA: reset (SETTINGS_ALL_LOCAL_NODES) equal to (SETTINGS_ALPHA)
HIVE MIND SPLINTER BETA: cancel reset
LOCAL SYNAPSE NODE: (97 Norn Queens "reset" ) / (63 Norn Queens "cancel" ) = 1.539
LOCAL SYNAPSE NODE: 1.539 < 2.0
LOCAL SYNAPSE: reset authorization threshold = NOT MET
LOCAL SYNAPSE NODE: reset cancelled

HIVE MIND SPLINTER ALPHA: run (NOM_NOM_NOM.exe) on (HIVE MIND SPLINTER BETA)
HIVE MIND SPLINTER BETA = 59 Norn Queens
HIVE MIND SPLINTER BETA = 48 Norn Queens
HIVE MIND SPLINTER BETA = 43 Norn Queens

HIVE MIND SPLINTER ALPHA: reset (SETTINGS_ALL_LOCAL_NODES) equal to (SETTINGS_ALPHA)
HIVE MIND SPLINTER ALPHA: cancel reset
LOCAL SYNAPSE NODE: 97 Norn Queens "reset" / 43 Norn Queens "cancel" = 2.259
LOCAL SYNAPSE NODE: 2.259 > 2.0
LOCAL SYNAPSE NODE: reset authorization threshold = MET
LOCAL SYNAPSE NODE: execute reset
LOCAL SYNAPSE NODE: reset = complete

QUERY: STATUS: HIVE MIND SPLINTER ALPHA = 140 Norn Queens
QUERY: STATUS: HIVE MIND SPLINTER BETA = 0 Norn Queens

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/25 20:40:24


BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:

That just sounds like one mind split into two temporarily, each part thinking for itself during the split, before reconnecting again. Which doesn't seem to me to be two Hive Minds, but an artificially divided single Mind.

Which, honestly, is really very cool. It displays the Hive Mind not being borne out of any single entity, but really being a consequence of a distributed network that can adapt, disconnect, reform and re-absorb itself. That's some extremely powerful adaptability.


I disagree. The local hive mind fragment needed to connect with hive mind tiamet to learn how to create the Doom, you know, the experimental Tyranid that consumed Eldar souls of Malan'tai by Hive Fleet Naga. Which only makes sense if it's a new hive mind. Norn Queens all share and know all Tyranid units experimental or otherwise. If the local hive mind fragment didn't know how to make the Doom then there is no norn-queen on Gladius and the Hive Mind is a newly created entity.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Norn-Queen
"Once a type of bio-form has been engineered to meet a purpose determined by the Norn-Queen, more bio-forms of the same type can be cloned by all the other Norn-Queens of a given Hive Fleet. "
   
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Far as we are aware there isn't a Norn Queen on Gladius - just a hive with spawning pools establishing itself. I believe so far Norn Queens have only been seen/heard of in the great Hive Ships. I don't believe we've seen them come planet-side.


Also note that Tyranids like The Doom and The Swarmlord are sort of like heroes are to other races. They are unique entities within the Swarm itself. The Swarmlord (which the Doom in Gladius is copy-catting) is unique, totally unique. There is only one within the Swarm. It exists as likely close to an "individual" within the matrix of the hivemind. Therefore it can only be at one place in one time, but it can be any place that the Hivemind reaches.


A hive locked off getting access to the Doom means that its basically connected to the main swarm for that access to that very specific creature.



Furthermore swarms that are isolated will evolve their own strains; the main body of the swarm also continues constant evolution. If you remain severed then you operate without that exchange of biological data. Once connected the exchange can be made.


   
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 Overread wrote:
Far as we are aware there isn't a Norn Queen on Gladius - just a hive with spawning pools establishing itself. I believe so far Norn Queens have only been seen/heard of in the great Hive Ships. I don't believe we've seen them come planet-side.


Dominatrices carry norn-queens in them. But I agree, Gladius is an anphelion project. No norn-queen.


 Overread wrote:
Also note that Tyranids like The Doom and The Swarmlord are sort of like heroes are to other races. They are unique entities within the Swarm itself. The Swarmlord (which the Doom in Gladius is copy-catting) is unique, totally unique. There is only one within the Swarm. It exists as likely close to an "individual" within the matrix of the hivemind. Therefore it can only be at one place in one time, but it can be any place that the Hivemind reaches.

A hive locked off getting access to the Doom means that its basically connected to the main swarm for that access to that very specific creature.


I don't think the Doom is a hero. I think he's just an experiment like the Parasite of Mortrex.
   
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UK

roboemperor wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Far as we are aware there isn't a Norn Queen on Gladius - just a hive with spawning pools establishing itself. I believe so far Norn Queens have only been seen/heard of in the great Hive Ships. I don't believe we've seen them come planet-side.


Dominatrices carry norn-queens in them. But I agree, Gladius is an anphelion project. No norn-queen.


 Overread wrote:
Also note that Tyranids like The Doom and The Swarmlord are sort of like heroes are to other races. They are unique entities within the Swarm itself. The Swarmlord (which the Doom in Gladius is copy-catting) is unique, totally unique. There is only one within the Swarm. It exists as likely close to an "individual" within the matrix of the hivemind. Therefore it can only be at one place in one time, but it can be any place that the Hivemind reaches.

A hive locked off getting access to the Doom means that its basically connected to the main swarm for that access to that very specific creature.


I don't think the Doom is a hero. I think he's just an experiment like the Parasite of Mortrex.


I'd forgotten that bit on the dominatrix carrying them, though I've a feeling that it might be a bit of lore that's shifted around a bit. I recall it being something in Epic 40K, but since then the queens have shifted. IT might also be that the idea of the queen has never really been set in stone in the lore itself (since it has no model) and that as a result we might have two or three different types of queen or creature; all called the Norn Qyeen.


As for the nature of the Doom, its like as not impossible for us to know unless GW confirms. Either an experimental gene that's hard to replicate and thus strictly limited in quantity (much like neurothropes are) or a unique entity that exists within the hive.
It's not helped that Old One Eye is sometimes used as a name for a very specific carnifex, but also is a name sometimes used on any "I'll be back" type carnifex that appears to show extreme regeneration and brutality in combat. Indeed the current codex doesn't confirm if its a single carnifex that just won't die; or if its a rare strain or a unique element of carnifex bodies that only manifests when undergoing and surviving extreme stress and damage.


The tyranids have many mysteries to them

   
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 Overread wrote:
I'd forgotten that bit on the dominatrix carrying them, though I've a feeling that it might be a bit of lore that's shifted around a bit. I recall it being something in Epic 40K, but since then the queens have shifted. IT might also be that the idea of the queen has never really been set in stone in the lore itself (since it has no model) and that as a result we might have two or three different types of queen or creature; all called the Norn Qyeen.


Norn-Queen is set in stone. Gladius makes a reference to it. The Impossible Difficulty AI for Tyranids is called the norn-queen. So if an officially licensed modern game has it, then it's not just a rumor that's retconned out.
   
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 Overread wrote:

I'd forgotten that bit on the dominatrix carrying them, though I've a feeling that it might be a bit of lore that's shifted around a bit. I recall it being something in Epic 40K, but since then the queens have shifted. IT might also be that the idea of the queen has never really been set in stone in the lore itself (since it has no model) and that as a result we might have two or three different types of queen or creature; all called the Norn Qyeen.

Yeah I think you're right about that being shifted around or retconned.
The old fluff for the Dominatrix in Hive War mentions that they are the brood-mother of the swarm they lead. Basically filling the role of a norn-queen. However it makes no direct mention of norn queens. I suspect because they hadn't come up with the concept of norn-queens at the time that was written (1995).

I can't find any mention of norn-queens up until the 3rd edition codex (released about 6 years later), which states: '...The highest forms of Tyranids, their Dominatrixes and Norn Queens, are living bio-factories which give birth to an unending stream of warriors, hive ships and symbiote weapons.'.

I've checked a few books in between, but I'm not sure where I could find any more recent fluff linking dominatrixes to norn-queens. Dominatrixes aren't really referenced very often, due to only really showing up in epic, and that game being so old.
It's quite possible that people have just inferred that Dominatrixes contain norn-queens due to them filling a similar role. Rather than it being directly stated anywhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 00:38:07


 
   
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roboemperor wrote:
 Overread wrote:
I'd forgotten that bit on the dominatrix carrying them, though I've a feeling that it might be a bit of lore that's shifted around a bit. I recall it being something in Epic 40K, but since then the queens have shifted. IT might also be that the idea of the queen has never really been set in stone in the lore itself (since it has no model) and that as a result we might have two or three different types of queen or creature; all called the Norn Qyeen.


Norn-Queen is set in stone. Gladius makes a reference to it. The Impossible Difficulty AI for Tyranids is called the norn-queen. So if an officially licensed modern game has it, then it's not just a rumor that's retconned out.


That's not how licenses work, nor background lore or setting details. It could be in a dozen licensed products, and if GW wants to go a different route and ignore it, they completely can, with no consequence.

There's a pile of Official GW Material that they happily ignore, and blithely contradict (Sensei being a good example of the former, and the Rubric, the latter. Originally, Thousand Sons marine squads were psychic batteries that could be tapped for d6 extra power points, not soulless automatons) Heck, there was a half-eldar Space Marine librarian running around for a while, and according to Warhammer Siege back in 1988, the Ultramarines weren't given Macragge or even full Adeptus Astartes status until after the Batlle of Macragge vs Hive Fleet Behemoth in 745.M41.

'Where do tyranids come from' is low tier fluff compared to the original status of the posterboy 'first founding' chapter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 01:51:37


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The whole canon/noncanon thing is just GW justifying their desire to retcon anything and everything they want. Nothing more.

So unless a later source material definitively contradicts and earlier fluff, it's canon until further notice.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




roboemperor wrote:
The whole canon/noncanon thing is just GW justifying their desire to retcon anything and everything they want. Nothing more.

So unless a later source material definitively contradicts and earlier fluff, it's canon until further notice.


That isnt remotely how continuity works.
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener




Sterling191 wrote:
roboemperor wrote:
The whole canon/noncanon thing is just GW justifying their desire to retcon anything and everything they want. Nothing more.

So unless a later source material definitively contradicts and earlier fluff, it's canon until further notice.


That isnt remotely how continuity works.


Right. Everything is a legend. Everything is a rumor. Everything is a second hand accounting.Everything is true. Everything is not true.

Nice "continuity" you got there. Explain how it works then.

No this is just GW saying they want to retcon anything and everything in the future at will with no restrictions. And also as others said to not restrict creative 3rd parties with strict rules that might kill their imagination.
   
 
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