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pm713 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Chapterhouse , not wierdness, sadly..

Justify to me how Chapterhouse necessitated changes like T'au, Aeldari, Drukhari, the absence of bikes, trueborn, eviscerators on a canoness and so on. Because unless chapterhouse poisoned the GW management and triggered mass brain damage I don't see how they did.

Copyright law technicallity Leading to "no models no rules " in Order to Protect Copyright and lower available Market Space for 3rd Parties.

Not Online!!! wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Chapterhouse , not wierdness, sadly..

Justify to me how Chapterhouse necessitated changes like T'au, Aeldari, Drukhari, the absence of bikes, trueborn, eviscerators on a canoness and so on. Because unless chapterhouse poisoned the GW management and triggered mass brain damage I don't see how they did.

Copyright law technicallity Leading to "no models no rules " in Order to Protect Copyright and lower available Market Space for 3rd Parties.

That to me is not a sufficient explanation. Several things they've removed had models, that doesn't explain the incredibly awful names they've been adding and that doesn't explain why they can't just MAKE THE MODEL. Especially when there's a thousand and one lieutenants around.

Well they could , See but it is easier to copy Paste and slightly adapt Sm files compared to the rather allready baroque recent csm Style, especially in hq for them... Not to mention new files from ground up would probably be needed for the overaged aeldari Line...

And easier means less time ergo less money spent for result.

Voss wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why do we get AL + 1 and Double additional dakka in 6 's now ?


Why is that acceptable supposedly?

Well the 'double dakka' is transcription error- its the same rules the IF currently have, and the other is actually a nerf from the 'AL +1' the RG already had.

Nothing is going to change there until the next chaos codex.

Is it? They have to be farther away to get the free cover bonus but before the -1 to be hit required them to be in cover, now they get it on open ground. Maybe it's more of a side grade than a upgrade or downgrade. Not sure, have to think about how it'll work with the new terrain rules.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well they could , See but it is easier to copy Paste and slightly adapt Sm files compared to the rather allready baroque recent csm Style, especially in hq for them... Not to mention new files from ground up would probably be needed for the overaged aeldari Line...

And easier means less time ergo less money spent for result.

They could also just say use the marine models and add spikes to taste. That's even easier. GW just suck.

Oof, that Salamander Nerf hurts. I get why they are doing it (with limited captain slots they seem to be reducing rerolls). But man that really stings. Like Stings-At-A-Fundamental-Tactics level stings.

As long as they reduce re-rolls across the board I feel it will be good for the game as a whole - if its just a slap at the Salamanders/MA I will be pretty annoyed. It still stings and I kind of wish they got something to compensate for it (especially when other CT's like UM's value skyrockets due to the fly change). But I'm not going to complain too much. I'll still try to make do with the boys in green.

Otoh due to mission and edition changes Flamers are looking a lot spicier now...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Voss wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why do we get AL + 1 and Double additional dakka in 6 's now ?


Why is that acceptable supposedly?

Well the 'double dakka' is transcription error- its the same rules the IF currently have, and the other is actually a nerf from the 'AL +1' the RG already had.

Nothing is going to change there until the next chaos codex.

Is it? They have to be farther away to get the free cover bonus but before the -1 to be hit required them to be in cover, now they get it on open ground. Maybe it's more of a side grade than a upgrade or downgrade. Not sure, have to think about how it'll work with the new terrain rules.

It doesn't work with the new terrain rules. If you have light cover (or dense cover), that's what you've got.

Plus consider the tactics of the edition- both sides want to move forward and take objectives and accomplish secondaries. Hanging back at 12 (and especially 18) is going to be harder.
Someone drops in at 9" or pushes aggressively and they might as well not have chapter tactics.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Why do we get AL + 1 and Double additional dakka in 6 's now ?


Why is that acceptable supposedly?

Because its probably still 1 and people are overreacting.

Whilst GW is prone to bouts of logic and simply loves changing horses mid race, so we might never see this train of thought get that far, but when I see this:

"Raven Guard: 1) count as being in Light Cover if the attacker is more than 18" away and 2) INFANTRY only count as being in Dense Cover if the attacker is more than 12" away."

... I immediately think that 'harder to hit' rules (Alaitoc, Alpha Legion) are going to find out that 18" is the new 12".

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross. Raven Guard particularly, though IF & DA also deserve special mention.

RG is weaker than before. DA was largely useless. Who stands still for RR1s when you have full rerolls available?

Edit: never mind.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Salamanders took a huge hit.

IF does appear to have gone up though.

Uh, no, we didn't. We got better. All of the BRs I have watched say that AP-1 means a lot this edition. Being able to ignore it will be awesome.

Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

I'll gladly give up rerolling to ignore Ap-1.

 Togusa wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

I'll gladly give up rerolling to ignore Ap-1.

Salamanders currently ignore AP1.

 Togusa wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

I'll gladly give up rerolling to ignore Ap-1.

We already had ignore AP1 (Which is significant). The change to the CT is a direct nerf because we don't reroll a hit roll.

The Deathwatch really need a more interesting/useful one. The to-wound reroll was kind of relevant when they wrote it in 7e but at the moment it's just worse than having Lieutenants.

Though at least the "select a battlefield role" clause means it can be used against Dedicated Transports in 9e.

The Necron Codes with the slight nerfs here are encouraging.

MEPHRIT: SOLAR FURY
Add 3" to the range characteristic of ranged weapons(excluding something) that models with this code are equipped with.
Each time a model with this code makes a ranged attack that targets a model within half range, the armour penetration characteristic of that attack is improved by 1.
When the protocol of the vengeful stars is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

NOVOKH: AWAKENED BY MURDER
Add 1" to charge rolls made for units with this code.
Each time a model with tthis code makes a melee attack, if the model has made a charge move, was charged, or performed a heroic intervention this turn, improve the armour penetration characteristic of this attack by 1.
When the protocol of the hungry void is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

NEPHREKH: TRANSLOCATION BEAMS
Models with this code have a 6+ invulnerable save.
Each time a unit witth this code advances, it can translocate. If it does, do not make an advance roll for it. Instead, until the end of ttthe phase, add 6" to the move characteristic of the models in that unit. If a model translocated, until the end of the turn, models in that unit cannot shoot.
Each time a unit with this code falls back or translocates, until the end of tthe phase, models in that unit can move over models and terrain as if they were not there.
When the protocol of the sudden storm is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

NIHILAKH: AGGRESSIVELY TERRITORIAL
Units with this code have the objective secured ability as in the core book. If a model in such a unit already has this ability, that model counts as one additional model when dettermining control of an objective marker.
Each time an attack with an armour penetration characteristic of -1 is allocated to a model with this code, if that model's unit is wholly within its controller's deployment zone, that attack has an armour penetration characteristic of 0 instead.
When the protocol of the eternal guardian is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

SZAREKHAN: UNCANNY ARTIFICERS
Each time a model witth this code would take a wound as the result of a mortal wound, roll one D6, on a 5+ that wound is ignored.
Each time a unitt with this code is selected to shoot or fight, you can re-roll one wound roll when making that unit's attacls.
When the protocol of the undying legions is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

SAUTEKH: RELENTLESS ADVANCE
Each time a morale test is ttaken for a unit with this code, you can re-roll that test.
Instead of following the normal rules for rapid fire weapons, models with this code shooting rapid-fire weapons make double the number of attacks if the shooting model's target is within 18".
When the protocol of the conquering tyrant is used you get both command protocols instead of one.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Best thing about it is the nerf that salamanders surely shows that MA/EC is going to wounds only too, and hopefully that chapter master is gone too. Fewer passive rerolls is a change people have been crying out for for ages, and if it also nerfs marines in particular at the same time, all the better.

I'll gladly give up rerolling to ignore Ap-1.

Salamanders currently ignore AP1.

...I am aware.

Necrons are coming back to the meta. The current ’word on the street’ is that Reanimation is rolled at the end of the morale phase. You roll only for models that died that turn, but you can roll for entirely wiped out units as well, at a -1.

But, considering all the bonuses to that roll that will be available, with even decent luck, the last models of every unit will keep perpetually getting up on the objectives they stand on.

That new Nihalakh trait is going to be good in the new missions. Everything in the army with obsec? No troops tax for those guys.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross. Raven Guard particularly, though IF & DA also deserve special mention.

RG is weaker than before. DA was largely useless. Who stands still for RR1s when you have full rerolls available?

Wasn't RG:
You gain the benefits of cover if you're more than 12" away.
If you're on a terrain feature and not a vehicle you also get -1 to be hit.

Now it's:
You gain the benefits of light cover if you're more than 18" away.
You have -1 to be hit from more than 12" away.

Which seems to me to be a buff.

pm713 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Well they could , See but it is easier to copy Paste and slightly adapt Sm files compared to the rather allready baroque recent csm Style, especially in hq for them... Not to mention new files from ground up would probably be needed for the overaged aeldari Line...

And easier means less time ergo less money spent for result.

They could also just say use the marine models and add spikes to taste. That's even easier. GW just suck.

They also need to find time in their release schedule that is already clogged up like crazy in the middle of a pandemic to release those extra models. Instead of fixing it they just decided to squat them... it's not loyalist astartes so I guess they figured "feth them" squatted them and moved on. Maybe we'll get them back after space marines get about 3 codices worth of extra unit entries and everyone else gets their entire line updated in my optimistic two decade prediction. Put it simply: GW is convinced that it's more profitable to make more primaricrap than it is to fix our woefully inadequate HQ selections.

 catbarf wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
There's not really any reason to think this will apply to other armies. Everyone moaned about endless marine rerolls, this is likely just a thing to combat that specifically.

I should hope that's not the idea, because it's not much of a solution. It's not like people were bringing multiple Chapter Masters in the first place.

Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

Wakshaani wrote:
... one Hive Tyrant, etc.

No. We like our Tyrants the way they are thanks.

At this point I think I'd rather have that Salamanders can only reroll a wound roll on a flamer or melta weapon (and maybe thunderhammers) but they reduce AP by one instead of just ignoring AP-1. Meaning AP-2 becomes AP-1, AP-3 becomes AP-2, AP-4 becomes AP-3 etc.

This current change is just a straight nerf to one of the chapters that needs it the least, but I guess I can find some solace in it if this is truly a push from GW to minimise rerolls. Please, make the Chapter Master strat into something that makes the captain beefier and not shoutier.

PiñaColada wrote:
At this point I think I'd rather have that Salamanders can only reroll a wound roll on a flamer or melta weapon (and maybe thunderhammers) but they reduce AP by one instead of just ignoring AP-1. Meaning AP-2 becomes AP-1, AP-3 becomes AP-2, AP-4 becomes AP-3 etc.

This current change is just a straight nerf to one of the chapters that needs it the least, but I guess I can find some solace in it if this is truly a push from GW to minimise rerolls. Please, make the Chapter Master strat into something that makes the captain beefier and not shoutier.

Shoot, I'd love that but that is also REALLY good. Like Incredibly so. Reducing AP by 1 makes a lot of marine killer weapons a lot less effective against them.
But yeah I kind of wish we got something to compensate for that sucker punch, but MA did need a nerf and it feels better for game health tbh.

Yes, that is strong but so was their last CT and they were still bottom of the barrel. It's all hypothetical anyways but in my suggestion they almost wouldn't have any rerolls anymore. A singular wound reroll on a flame weapon is next to nothing so we're basically just talking about meltas. Which for the moment is pretty good considering eradicators are undercosted, but in a world where they have a more humane price you probably won't be fielding more than a handful of meltas anyways.

It'd speed up the game quite a bit and still provide a fluffy rule interpretation for their master artisanry.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yikes. We just got through not-fixing the fallout from supplements and they're already going at it.

This looks pretty gross. Raven Guard particularly, though IF & DA also deserve special mention.

RG is weaker than before. DA was largely useless. Who stands still for RR1s when you have full rerolls available?

Wasn't RG:
You gain the benefits of cover if you're more than 12" away.
If you're on a terrain feature and not a vehicle you also get -1 to be hit.

Now it's:
You gain the benefits of light cover if you're more than 18" away.
You have -1 to be hit from more than 12" away.

Which seems to me to be a buff.

It's at best compensation for the fact that their minus 1 to hit is MUCH less useful in a world where modifiers are capped at +1/-1 and Dense Cover exists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
There's not really any reason to think this will apply to other armies. Everyone moaned about endless marine rerolls, this is likely just a thing to combat that specifically.

I should hope that's not the idea, because it's not much of a solution. It's not like people were bringing multiple Chapter Masters in the first place.

Well, three-6 Smash Captains was a thing. GW stepping in to do something about that's kind of nice. There *should* only be one captain per side in a game. One Warboss, one Archon, one Farseer, one Hive Tyrant, etc.

I'm totally down for a force-wide limiter like this.

I could give a flying feth what the fluff justification is, I don't have other HQs to fill in if I can only take one canoness. Missionaries are terrible unless you're full melee, Celestine got most of her teeth taken out in the codex(even if she's still fine) Junith is Order locked, and the Triumph of Saint Katherine is utter, utter garbage. If the palatine comes out and the rules are gak, that's an incredibly unfair hit to an army that has nowhere else to go with their HQ choices.

Heck it is even annoying for those factions that have a slatter of HQ, which are highly specialised, with few general good HQ options.