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2020/11/06 22:30:08
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).
Other thoughts are getting the Phobos captain, which combined with the eliminators should be able to knock out most medium characters.
Im a massive fan of the Phobos Captain. He's lost one of his major tricks with the way the 9th edition redeploy WLT works, but his ability to hunt characters from range is nearly unparalleled, his anti-deep strike aura can be pushed out to a hilarious 15" range, and he synergizes beautifully with the Spectrus Kill Team. The only reason he isnt an auto take in my opinion is the restriction on Captains in detachments in 9th.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/07 00:13:42
2020/11/07 04:50:27
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
Sterling191 wrote: The only reason he isnt an auto take in my opinion is the restriction on Captains in detachments in 9th.
Why does this matter? Unless I'm missing something that was added in the new supplement (which I haven't seen the datasheets from) a watch master doesn't have the captain keyword. So you can have a master and a phobos captain in the same detachment?
If anything the bigger flaw with the phobos captain, is that he takes up a slot you could have used for a chaplain or librarian, all of which are also pretty valuable.
(But I may be wrong on the watch master, does he have the captain limitation added?)
2020/11/07 05:31:03
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
What are you guys running on the Phobos Captain, Bolter Cache or Banebolts? I find myself using the +1 to wound to offset the str 4 most of the time anyway, so the Str6 -3AP of the Banebolts is actually better AP (and I could put the bolt cache on a biker sergeant or something)
For my normal marines I usually just run a basic Primaris Captain with the Bellicose rifle and powersword, but for some reason that seems not fancy enough for Deathwatch...
Also Purgatus is a hell of a relic to slap on a Librarian or Apothecary and have them actually contribute to the fight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/07 07:10:27
Why does this matter? Unless I'm missing something that was added in the new supplement (which I haven't seen the datasheets from) a watch master doesn't have the captain keyword. So you can have a master and a phobos captain in the same detachment?
You can, but remember I also tend to prefer running a jump captain for Beacon duty.
McGibs wrote: What are you guys running on the Phobos Captain, Bolter Cache or Banebolts? I find myself using the +1 to wound to offset the str 4 most of the time anyway, so the Str6 -3AP of the Banebolts is actually better AP (and I could put the bolt cache on a biker sergeant or something)
If I'm not running something like Bikers that can get fancy with SIA, the cache. Yes, its a bit overlapping with the Bane Bolts, but the flexibility that it adds is just too good. Sometimes you're going to want to push to damage 5. Sometimes you're going to get more out of negative a -1 to hit and +1 save from light cover, and sometimes that extra 6" range is going to be the difference between being exposed, being in range, or not being able to shoot at all.
I completely understand the argument for the Bane Bolts, and its still a solid upgrade to the character's shooting. The capacity to tote SIA is just better in my experience.
For my normal marines I usually just run a basic Primaris Captain with the Bellicose rifle and powersword, but for some reason that seems not fancy enough for Deathwatch...
Sadly most of our character shooting options got badly nerfed with the SIA change. Primarch's Wrath and the Bellicos can get some of that back, but honestly I'd be more inclined to just hand out the combi-flamers and call it a day. We're a very CP hungry army now (expect to use BoV pretty much every turn at a minimum), and relic weapons just arent what they used to be.
2020/11/07 15:52:14
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
Sterling191 wrote: Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).
The Aegis gives a 5++ to Deathwatch Characters within 6". so that does include the Champion himself. It's not just Core Deathwatch units that benefit. So he'll have a 2+, 5++ save.
I might have to look at what model I'd like to use to make a Champion.
2020/11/07 17:02:43
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
Sterling191 wrote: Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).
The Aegis gives a 5++ to Deathwatch Characters within 6". so that does include the Champion himself. It's not just Core Deathwatch units that benefit. So he'll have a 2+, 5++ save.
I might have to look at what model I'd like to use to make a Champion.
Exactly, and that extends also to librarians o apothecaries. I am using a modified primaris lieutenant with the DW champion's head from the upgrade sprue
2020/11/07 17:49:30
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
Sterling191 wrote: Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).
The Aegis gives a 5++ to Deathwatch Characters within 6". so that does include the Champion himself. It's not just Core Deathwatch units that benefit. So he'll have a 2+, 5++ save.
I might have to look at what model I'd like to use to make a Champion.
Indeed, my error there. For some reason I had it in my head there was an explicit "other" in the aura rule, which there is not.
So, just thinking about my current loadouts, changes etc.
I'm still thinking about keeping a squad of stormbolter vets. Put them in a drop pod, Furor tactics, and maybe drop CF strat on them if facing a really large blob. Turn 1 Tactical doctrine, still a useful unit IMHO.
I have another Proteus kill team with a mix of vets with bolters, a couple hvy weapons etc, and one vanvet for fall back and shoot strat. Now, he used to be a basic chainsword and bp dude, but the bp no longer uses SIA, so wondering what (if any) other weapon I should give him. This team currently going in a Corvus.
Now I just need to see what I want to do with my foot soldiers (maybe supported by a couple of dreads).
2020/11/07 18:58:41
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
Anyone considered a Bike Captain with Bolt Cache? With MC bolter instead of a stormbolter, he's got a couple fewer shots, but two of his six bolts are -1ap and 2d natively. Or you could take a stormbolter and he becomes a more effective Vet biker sargent. You could also trade a WL trait to mastercraft his stormbolter.
For chapter vets, it's really situation dependent, which is part of why it's so good. It's also worded to last only for your (player) turn rather than until your next command phase, so a couple traits are straight up not useful (like ravenguard). Hopefully that get's faqed.
My usual picks have been:
Most useful:
Ultramarines to fallback and shoot.
Whitescars to advance/fallback and charge and advance and shoot without penalty.
Blood Angels for +1 wound in combat and +1" advance/charge
Crimson Fists for chewing up big chaff units with bolters (+1 to hit and exploding 6's for bolts)
Situationally cute:
Dark Angels for +1 to hit while stationary, but 2cp you really need the right unit to put it on.
Iron hands to bump up a vehicle's damage chart if you REALLY need it
Flesh Tearers: if you've got like a 2" charge lined up, I guess this is technically better than the BA trait
Not worth it, or don't work:
Space wolves: can't heroically intervene in your own turn, and BA trait is better than the +1 to hit in combat
Imp Fists 2cp not really worth ignore cover and the CF trait is usually better if you're dumping bolts into chaff
Black Templar: use Whitescars or BA instead.
Salamanders: -1ap doesnt take effect and you'd just use a command rerolls to wound instead of spending 2cp
Ravenguard: just don't work until a faq, and even then probobly not worth 2cp
Pretty much all the succsessor traits: the named chapters usually do what they do, but more.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/11/07 19:16:47
SatanEatSeitan wrote: What are your thoughts on the best chapter tactics for "brotherhood of veterans"?
The issue I see is that there are a lot of useful options, but 2 CP is still expensive.
Each choice, therefore, must count.
What are your top picks?
Personal Top Choices (albeit largely situational but can be absurdly powerful in those situations): Ultramarines for falling back and shooting. White Scars for advancing and charging (or if you've got a big pod of Assault weapon toting infantry, letting them zoom and fire). Dark Angels for digging in and making every shot count. Flesh Tearers for ripping and tearing while stuck in. Crimson Fists for absolutely leafblowing a horde.
Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Space Wolves lose out because the stratagem only lasts till the end of the turn so the things that trigger in your opponents turn cant activate. Black Templars and Imperial Fists are things we can generally get equivalent abilities from other sources, so I dont expect to see them used.
McGibs wrote: Anyone considered a Bike Captain with Bolt Cache? With MC bolter instead of a stormbolter, he's got a couple fewer shots, but two of his six bolts are -1ap and 2d natively. Or you could take a stormbolter and he becomes a more effective Vet biker sargent. You could also trade a WL trait to mastercraft his stormbolter.
It's definitely an interesting thought (and one I've looked at), but my gut is saying that the opportunity cost is just too damn high. What we give up by making a killyer character like this is the capacity to make that character a force multiplier, and I think the latter is far more valuable than the former.
I can see lists with this fella as a secondary character, but that's gonna incur some steep CP investments to make it work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/07 19:12:18
2020/11/07 19:25:26
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
My breakdown of captains all seem like pretty high CP investments regardless of what you do with them. I'm still not sure what the best barebones captain is, but most of them seem like you want to invest at least two CP on relics/traits.
I feel like a Biker Captain is just as much a force multiplyer as any of the foot ones, as you can still slap two WL traits on him and have him stick around your CORE units and pump out deadly shots to 24-30" At 100pts, he's also on par, or slightly cheaper than several of the Primaris Captains (cheaper than gravis and relic shield) but can scoot around the board if needed.
What exactly are the high opportunity costs that aren't also shared by other captains?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/07 19:27:14
looking for the best match for a MC Xenophase Captain. Probably going to give him a jump pack. of course, the most obvious is Blood Angels (from aJP perspective) but is strike first that great? There is the salamander for the +2S, and I'd also give him a combi-melta. Any other thoughts?
2020/11/07 20:28:43
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
For me, the CP to change chapter tactics are mainly going to be on my kill teams that have sp3cialisms or get significant buffs from other sources(such as a chaplain).
Company champion opening up an HQ is pretty huge for HQ slots. Means I can fit a Phobos captain or librarian(most likely a Phobos captain) in which really helps, especially with lots of lists relying on targeted auras.
The issue is that things need to die in one round of shooting, otherwise it is a waste of a shot with apoth healing. Squad of eliminators and the captain should be able to handle most non-invul characters.
Problem is that we have a cap of 3 warlord traits and 3 relics. Running out of warlord traits very quickly between chaplain and apoth.
Still waiting on Forgeworld to see if anything feels solid in it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/07 21:04:07
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
What exactly are the high opportunity costs that aren't also shared by other captains?
You're effectively giving up all the force multiplication potential (barring reroll 1s) for 6 SIA shots. Using Castellan plus an extra relic means you arent giving him the Beacon, the Tome, the Aegis or the Auspicator, and unless you're burning another CP on him you're not taking any non-self buffing WLTs. Thats two CP minimum plus a precious HQ slot for a handful of non rerollable BS2+ SIA. No 5++, no +1 to hit flyers, no mobility shenanigans, no cover negation, no doctrine manipulation, no super-obsec, etc. Which means if you want any of that, you need to bring in another vector for it, which costs more points, and more CP.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/08 01:02:56
2020/11/08 06:11:29
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
Sterling191 wrote: Can confirm the Champ is your best bet for hilariously cheap Aegis duty. Only caveat is that he'll have a 2+/(-)++ defensive line, not the 2+/4++ that storm shield toters will (the Aegis doesnt actually impart an invuln on the bearer, just the improved armor save).
The Aegis gives a 5++ to Deathwatch Characters within 6". so that does include the Champion himself. It's not just Core Deathwatch units that benefit. So he'll have a 2+, 5++ save.
I might have to look at what model I'd like to use to make a Champion.
I've got a Power Sword/Storm Shield Blackshield who's looking for the title. I may also just use a Bladeguard or something.
The thought has crossed my mind that it could just be put on a Vet in a unit, but that probably just puts too big of a target on that unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/08 06:12:53
2020/11/08 06:39:44
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
It's likely not super competitive, and goes far too heavy on specialisms, but its an evolution of my FLGS lists from 8th and its in that context that I've been starting from. Spectrus and Indomitor teams are there to be as subtle as a brick through a plate glass window and hunt their preferred targets, while the two Proteus teams are the frontline bruisers that can mix it up at range or in melee (and able to do all sorts of shenanigans with the Beacon and Teleport Homers), supported by mobile character and bike support (Sergeant gets the cache) for objective grabbing and other board control shenanigans. It's tight on CP, but I think that's a necessary buy in. Round out with a WM for doctrine swapping, and Libby for the 5+++ and aura sniping.
Points-wise it's sitting at 1991 as right now Battlescribe doesnt have DW terminators pointed correctly. The second WLT on the Captain will end up being any of Paragon, Ties that Bind, Optimized Priority, or Nowhere to Hide. It's gonna take a *lot* of trial and error to sort out which of that lot is what I want to run.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/09 02:45:30
2020/11/09 03:56:14
Subject: Re:(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
I'm curious as to why you chose the loadouts you did? Namely, the boltgun vs combi-flamers?
I assume the thinking was to cut some points, but I wasn't sure why you put the more expensive weapons on the models that are likely to die first? I'd have thought the better combo (aha) would be bolter+shield, and combi+LC, as that means the more expensive weapons are more likely to survive longer.
I'm probably missing something, I'm just wanting to understand the tactic as these killteams are fairly similar to what I was considering.
2020/11/09 13:53:53
Subject: Re:(K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
I'm curious as to why you chose the loadouts you did? Namely, the boltgun vs combi-flamers?
I assume the thinking was to cut some points, but I wasn't sure why you put the more expensive weapons on the models that are likely to die first? I'd have thought the better combo (aha) would be bolter+shield, and combi+LC, as that means the more expensive weapons are more likely to survive longer.
I'm probably missing something, I'm just wanting to understand the tactic as these killteams are fairly similar to what I was considering.
There isnt a real tactical reason, just force of habit. I ran wall to wall shields in 8th, so individual wargear allocation is something I'm going to have to evaluate and improve on for 9th. Maybe it is better to run the shields on fellas without flamers, I honestly dont know. That's something I expect to get wiser on when Im eventually able to play this list (and the other fifteen or so permutations that are rocketing around in my addled brain).
I 100% could drop a CML from each Proetus team and give everybody who isnt packing one a combi. That's another permutation on the formation.
2020/11/09 14:58:46
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
I do appreciate that it feels more like a mix works now than picking one optimal loadout and spamming it until you run out of points. Probably not a feeling that will last, but c'est la vie.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/09 14:59:20
2020/11/09 16:09:13
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
LunarSol wrote: I do appreciate that it feels more like a mix works now than picking one optimal loadout and spamming it until you run out of points. Probably not a feeling that will last, but c'est la vie.
I get the feeling that's how it was in 8th? I didn't play then, and thanks to the pandemic I've not been able to play since my intro games at the local Warhammer store, so I haven't actually seen much of Deathwatch at any point. I have seen a few people post lists where everyone is spamming shields and combi-flamers on every single Vet a bit unlike Sterling's, which seem to have a role for these KT members.
2020/11/09 16:21:10
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
In fairness, I ran similarly mixed formations in 8th when SB/SS and nothing else was the order of the day. Please dont infer anything from my choice to not go CF/SS x10 other than I find such vanilla builds boring.
If I wanted to not customize my army, I wouldnt be playing Deathwatch after all.
2020/11/09 16:23:17
Subject: (K)nights of the Long Vigil: Deathwatch 9th Edition Discussion and Tactica
I feel like the proteus kill team is the “gap filler” for your list. They are there to fill whatever role is left from everything else.
So for example I need a block unit to hold the center/protect characters, so I lean towards more stormshields and an emphasis on short range fire power/CC for how I want to plan my kill team that is going to stick as a 10 man. Thinking lots of combi flamers, maybe some terminators with heavy flamers. It really is down to what I feel like my list is lacking and will be the unit where most adjustments are made as I play some games. It enables me to leave the rest of the list mostly untouched.
Does mean I have to prepare and paint 5 of each add on(as well as some magnets) but the versatility will be worth it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/09 16:24:02
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
