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Affton, MO. USA

 Ghaz wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
Spoiler:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Gimgamgoo wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
I'm wondering if he is doing this now with a little foresight to GW's new policy on IP infringement and copyright. Perhaps he heard of how they are cracking down on the monetized videos of GW IP and is creating his own paint line so he will have a trusty paint color to use on his channel. Who knows how stupid GW is going to get with the release of their statement today. Could they go after Duncan saying he is not allowed to paint his models on his subscriber channel because he is earning money off of their IP?


Really?
How can using a paint you've bought by a specific manufacturer in a video be IP infringement?
Just think of the bad press GW would get if they went after their ex-employee for advertising their product.


GW sued other companies for making shoulder pads compatible with their models.

I don't think it's a huge stretch to see them going after GW-focused channels on YouTube.


GW make their own videos about how to paint their models, their way, with their products. While I haven't paid too much attention to if Duncan only uses GW paints and brushes on GW models, if he were to use an army painter color or brush on their model they could get feisty. Also since they shut down the animator for doing GW IP material because he collected money, how is that any different that Duncan getting money from subscribers for doing his videos. Either he would have to make all the GW ones free, or not do any.

Duncan uses Army Painter brushes and paints.


I know he has used BOTH GW and Army Painter, has he recently switched over to JUST Army painter? My point is that GW might get touchy with him using Army Painter paints and brushes to paint a Primaris Marine.

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Southeastern PA, USA

 Polonius wrote:
Good lord, I really wish people would at least try to understand IP issues before commenting on them.

There is likely no action GW could bring against a painter for using their paints and minis and creating a how to paint video. The reason is that the creator isn't utilizing their characters or setting to create a new work, but rather creating a work using physical goods that GW sells. GW can copyright a primaris marine, but that just prevents people from selling other primaris marines. A video featuring a primaris marine that they bought is fine.

Same thing with paint names. They are trademarked, which means Duncan can't sell a paint named XV-88 or The Fang, but that does not mean you cannot make and sell a video using those products. To win an action, GW would have to claim that Duncan's use of their trademarked names would cause a confusion, and thus induce people to buy his product instead of GW paints, which is patently absurd.


You know it's not about those pesky facts, though.

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Macon, GA

Yeah, admittedly IP law is tricky, with a lot of nuance, but this kind of thing is pretty clean cut.

There is also some slop between best practices (such as sitcoms using fake brands) and legal requirements. TVs and movies tend to use fake brands in order to create more value for paid product placement, or to maintain good relationships when a product might be shown in a negative light.

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 Polonius wrote:
Good lord, I really wish people would at least try to understand IP issues before commenting on them.

There is likely no action GW could bring against a painter for using their paints and minis and creating a how to paint video. The reason is that the creator isn't utilizing their characters or setting to create a new work, but rather creating a work using physical goods that GW sells. GW can copyright a primaris marine, but that just prevents people from selling other primaris marines. A video featuring a primaris marine that they bought is fine.

Same thing with paint names. They are trademarked, which means Duncan can't sell a paint named XV-88 or The Fang, but that does not mean you cannot make and sell a video using those products. To win an action, GW would have to claim that Duncan's use of their trademarked names would cause a confusion, and thus induce people to buy his product instead of GW paints, which is patently absurd.


Well theres the context that Duncan worked for GW and produced the exact same type of videos that he is monetising now and going one step further with his own line of paints ( brand identity issue?) ... Im not 100% sure if that would not be enough of a conflict of interests since Gw will have those same type of videos locked down and payed for with + channel with GW only paints.
Either way I though some contracts with employees would not allow you to pursue a line of business that is directly competing with the company your leaving for a determined amount of time. ( I hope and bet that is expired)

I dont think Duncan line of paints and videos will be something Gw will pursue, I mean seems far fetched but better safe than sorry and thats the paranoia GW wants you to be embedded in.

In short we dont have the full scope and we are all speculating, so I'm not sure if its as black or white as you are saying?


   
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Fayetteville

 Monkeysloth wrote:
I'm surprised there already isn't one with how much Wapple and the Massive Voodoo guys paint in oil already.


Back in the day all we had were oils. Pollyscale came out with the first acrylics in the late 70s, early 80s. Before that you used Testors, Pactra, Floquil or Humbrol (in their terrible little tins). Oils are still around. Testors Model Master has at least two lines of oil-based enamels. Humbrol still sells enamels too. It's funny to see the worm turn and people going back to oils because of the painting qualities. Acrylics were adopted mainly for ease of use and safety reasons, not because they produced better results.

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Macon, GA

 NAVARRO wrote:

Well theres the context that Duncan worked for GW and produced the exact same type of videos that he is monetising now and going one step further with his own line of paints ( brand identity issue?) ... Im not 100% sure if that would not be enough of a conflict of interests since Gw will have those same type of videos locked down and payed for with + channel with GW only paints.


Brand identiy is literally trademark law. Taht means names, logos, trade dress, etc. Does Duncan's paint academy use the name, logo, or anything that would confuse a viewer that the were watching an official GW video?

Does it make even remote sense that GW could say "People associate Duncan painting videos with us, so now you can't make your own!"? It does not. GW cannot trademark "Duncan."

Either way I though some contracts with employees would not allow you to pursue a line of business that is directly competing with the company your leaving for a determined amount of time. ( I hope and bet that is expired)
That's a non-competivie agreement, whcih is fairly common among highly skilled or highly place employees. It's possible that GW had one, but that's a contract, not part of IP law.

I dont think Duncan line of paints and videos will be something Gw will pursue, I mean seems far fetched but better safe than sorry and thats the paranoia GW wants you to be embedded in.
I'm not sure I would ascribe motivation to GW. I think that IP infringement is super common in the hobby, so GW isn't being paranoid. Between 3d printing, cracked pdfs, and "chinacast" there's just so much piracy out there, GW is actually being borderline irresponsible not addressing it sooner.

In short we don't have the full scope and we are all speculating, so I'm not sure if its as black or white as you are saying?


Well, we know broadly the scope of the law, and what sort of behavior is generally seen as copyright infringement, and it's not happening. Nothing is absolute, but I would rate GW's ability to successfully take action against Duncan as very low.

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Florence, KY

Duncan launched his Painting Academy over a year ago in March 2020. If he had any sort of 'non-compete' clause in his contract at GW it was most likely for three months as he left at the end of 2019. If he violated his 'non-compete' clause, GW would have taken action long ago.

 Theophony wrote:
I know he has used BOTH GW and Army Painter, has he recently switched over to JUST Army painter? My point is that GW might get touchy with him using Army Painter paints and brushes to paint a Primaris Marine.

Again, he uses Army Painter paints and brushes. That doesn't mean he uses them exclusively nor does he only use them on non Games Workshop models. He uses both lines of paints and brushes using the one which is appropriate for what effect he's looking for at the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 17:41:16


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Non competes are generally for higher ups where their skills and knowledge going to a rival could actually impact the business in a meaningful way. All respect to Duncan but no one gives a gak if a community manager type goes to a rival company or sets up themselves
   
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Fayetteville

MaxT wrote:
Non competes are generally for higher ups where their skills and knowledge going to a rival could actually impact the business in a meaningful way. All respect to Duncan but no one gives a gak if a community manager type goes to a rival company or sets up themselves


Fun fact: there are fast food chains in the US with non-compete clauses for their workers.

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Macon, GA

MaxT wrote:
Non competes are generally for higher ups where their skills and knowledge going to a rival could actually impact the business in a meaningful way. All respect to Duncan but no one gives a gak if a community manager type goes to a rival company or sets up themselves


Well, plenty of lousy companies try to get people sign non-competes, https://eig.org/noncompetesbrief

As a rule, if you're not important enough to a company to have a contract, than you probably shouldn't be important enough to have the non-compete. Which is why non compete clauses (as part of a bigger contract) are upheld more often than stand alone non complete agreements (where the only thing being signed on is the non compete).


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Florence, KY

MaxT wrote:
Non competes are generally for higher ups where their skills and knowledge going to a rival could actually impact the business in a meaningful way. All respect to Duncan but no one gives a gak if a community manager type goes to a rival company or sets up themselves

Duncan for a while was the face of Games Workshop, so he either did have a 'non-compete' clause as a part of his very visible role in the company or respected the company enough to sit out three months before launching his Painting Academy.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

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Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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Macon, GA

 Ghaz wrote:
MaxT wrote:
Non competes are generally for higher ups where their skills and knowledge going to a rival could actually impact the business in a meaningful way. All respect to Duncan but no one gives a gak if a community manager type goes to a rival company or sets up themselves

Duncan for a while was the face of Games Workshop, so he either did have a 'non-compete' clause as a part of his very visible role in the company or respected the company enough to sit out three months before launching his Painting Academy.


A very cursory look at UK law for this suggests that there probably either wasn't a non-compete, or it was unenforceable. The simple reason is that it's hard to argue with a straight face that Duncan is "competing" directly against GW, which would make that clause most likely overly broad.

It's also my understanding that the game design community in the UK is pretty "chummy," which means that NCCs might not be part of the culture.

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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
I'm surprised there already isn't one with how much Wapple and the Massive Voodoo guys paint in oil already.


There is abteilung oils, though from people who use oils they describe them more as a mid ranged oil, and that if you actually want to paint with them (not just use them as effects) then going for one of the higher end artist oils is better. I’ve not personally used abteilung though.


I forgot about those. I was looking at the rust set not to long ago even but decided I just didn't want to pick up all new auxiliary stuff for the paints.

Arschbombe wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
I'm surprised there already isn't one with how much Wapple and the Massive Voodoo guys paint in oil already.


Back in the day all we had were oils. Pollyscale came out with the first acrylics in the late 70s, early 80s. Before that you used Testors, Pactra, Floquil or Humbrol (in their terrible little tins). Oils are still around. Testors Model Master has at least two lines of oil-based enamels. Humbrol still sells enamels too. It's funny to see the worm turn and people going back to oils because of the painting qualities. Acrylics were adopted mainly for ease of use and safety reasons, not because they produced better results.


Enamels really aren't oil paint in the classical sense. Yes, technically, they're a crude oil byproduct (from when gas is made from what I understand) which does make them "oil" based however oil paints are made with linseed oil. They also behave really differently too when painting.

   
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 Polonius wrote:
Good lord, I really wish people would at least try to understand IP issues before commenting on them.

There is likely no action GW could bring against a painter for using their paints and minis and creating a how to paint video. The reason is that the creator isn't utilizing their characters or setting to create a new work, but rather creating a work using physical goods that GW sells. GW can copyright a primaris marine, but that just prevents people from selling other primaris marines. A video featuring a primaris marine that they bought is fine.

Same thing with paint names. They are trademarked, which means Duncan can't sell a paint named XV-88 or The Fang, but that does not mean you cannot make and sell a video using those products. To win an action, GW would have to claim that Duncan's use of their trademarked names would cause a confusion, and thus induce people to buy his product instead of GW paints, which is patently absurd.


furthermore, IP law tends to have exceptions for certain cases, one of which is education, Duncan's videos are, pretty much by definition videos produced for educational purposes.

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Macon, GA

BrianDavion wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Good lord, I really wish people would at least try to understand IP issues before commenting on them.

There is likely no action GW could bring against a painter for using their paints and minis and creating a how to paint video. The reason is that the creator isn't utilizing their characters or setting to create a new work, but rather creating a work using physical goods that GW sells. GW can copyright a primaris marine, but that just prevents people from selling other primaris marines. A video featuring a primaris marine that they bought is fine.

Same thing with paint names. They are trademarked, which means Duncan can't sell a paint named XV-88 or The Fang, but that does not mean you cannot make and sell a video using those products. To win an action, GW would have to claim that Duncan's use of their trademarked names would cause a confusion, and thus induce people to buy his product instead of GW paints, which is patently absurd.


furthermore, IP law tends to have exceptions for certain cases, one of which is education, Duncan's videos are, pretty much by definition videos produced for educational purposes.


That’s true, but be careful. Fair use is both complicated (multiple factors) and only applies to copyright, not to trade marks.

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Bristol (UK)

Doesn't education only apply if you're educating people about the subject?
You don't get carte blanche to use whatever you want just because you're teaching someone something unrelated.
   
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Eye of Terror

 Polonius wrote:
Good lord, I really wish people would at least try to understand IP issues before commenting on them.

There is likely no action GW could bring against a painter for using their paints and minis and creating a how to paint video. The reason is that the creator isn't utilizing their characters or setting to create a new work, but rather creating a work using physical goods that GW sells. GW can copyright a primaris marine, but that just prevents people from selling other primaris marines. A video featuring a primaris marine that they bought is fine.

Same thing with paint names. They are trademarked, which means Duncan can't sell a paint named XV-88 or The Fang, but that does not mean you cannot make and sell a video using those products. To win an action, GW would have to claim that Duncan's use of their trademarked names would cause a confusion, and thus induce people to buy his product instead of GW paints, which is patently absurd.


Not sure anyone is concerned about a copyright lawsuit, hard to see GW marching Duncan into court for using their paints.

If GW wants to shut down an influencer on social media, brands have all kinds of tools available to do so. Channel strikes, shadowbans, etc are all things that can be leveraged to cut down on channel growth and reduce profitability for far less than the cost of a lawyer.

My sense is Duncan just wants to build a sustainable business and sees an in-house paint line as a way to accomplish that. He can't do that and promote Citadel paints at the same time.


   
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Bristol (UK)

I agree, I think this is entirely Duncan growing and expanding his business.
He's mentioned he has multiple projects brewing, this is just the one he's announced (or perhaps more accurately heavily implied as we're working exclusively off of a picture here).
   
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I would not be surprised if we see a game from him.
Like one of those games that let you use any mini, but then he makes his own minis to go with it.

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Bristol (UK)

I think that's a bit ambitious.
He's a painter, and it seems he's just a two man team.
I'd sooner imagine paint brushes, weathering, that sort of thing.
   
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Florence, KY

https://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/Announcing-the-Launch-of-Trans-Atlantis-Games

Announcing the Launch of Trans Atlantis Games

Industry Veteran Bob Watts is looking to bring more awesome things to your tabletop. He's joined up with Steve Herbert and Peter Buxton to bring you Trans Atlantis Games. Expect new minis, terrain, and other such elements coming soon.

From the release:

Trans Atlantis Games is the latest enterprise from industry veteran Bob Watts, who brings nearly a half a century of experience and expertise in the Hobby Games industry to this new venture.

Trans Atlantis Games will be creating brand new and exciting product ranges. Trans Atlantis Games will also be forming strategic partnerships with other game & entertainment companies and creators, leaning towards the 3D element of the hobby, focusing on tabletop miniatures games & accessories, as well as RPG miniatures.

Joining Bob at Trans Atlantis Games will be his colleague Steve Herbert, who will be overseeing all production, warehousing and shipping in the Liverpool UK facility, and Peter Buxton, a longtime associate of Bob and Steve's, who will be managing the business in Europe.

Trans Atlantis Games' initial strategic partnership is with Duncan Rhodes and Roger Yates from the Duncan Rhodes Painting Academy. Duncan and Roger have been collaborating for many years, instructing hobbyists around the world to paint their models to a high standard via their popular videos, which can be found on YouTube and www.duncanrhodes.com

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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“instructing hobbyists around the world to paint their models to a high standard via their popular videos“

If by, “high standard” they mean, competent tabletop standard, then yeah.
   
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This pretty much killed off my hopes of him having an epic crossover with Masterclass.

I could pay for his videos, but I'm going to wait until there is an actual large number of models I'm interesed in.
   
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Florence, KY

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
“instructing hobbyists around the world to paint their models to a high standard via their popular videos“

If by, “high standard” they mean, competent tabletop standard, then yeah.

It's a news release, and not even one by Duncan. It has no more meaning than when GW says that the latest release is the 'best ever'...

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

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Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
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Brighton MA

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Duncan to me never seemed to really be that interesting. I tried watching his stuf and its kinda just mediocre.
He is middle of the road as what he is showing and doesnt try to teach anything beyond the model. No techniques or anything.


There are classic military model painters who'd you get more out of honestly. He's a nice guy but very basic technique wise.
   
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 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
“instructing hobbyists around the world to paint their models to a high standard via their popular videos“

If by, “high standard” they mean, competent tabletop standard, then yeah.

 Dagstyrr wrote:
There are classic military model painters who'd you get more out of honestly. He's a nice guy but very basic technique wise.

You guys are either snobs who have Giraldez in their gaming club or only watched his videos for very beginners on GW website if you think high end stuff he has on his page is 'very basic tabletop standard'
   
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 Irbis wrote:
 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
“instructing hobbyists around the world to paint their models to a high standard via their popular videos“

If by, “high standard” they mean, competent tabletop standard, then yeah.

 Dagstyrr wrote:
There are classic military model painters who'd you get more out of honestly. He's a nice guy but very basic technique wise.

You guys are either snobs who have Giraldez in their gaming club or only watched his videos for very beginners on GW website if you think high end stuff he has on his page is 'very basic tabletop standard'


Neither of us said ‘very basic tabletop standard’. I said ‘competent tabletop standard’, the other guy said ‘basic techniques’. You don’t get to pick and choose individual words, make your own sentences and claim it’s a quote.

I’m not a painting snob at all. However, I do think that a professional painting tutor charging money for access to his tutorials should be doing a lot more than basecoat, wash, edge highlight every single video. I admit, I’ve only watched the videos he has put out for free on YouTube, but haven’t seen anything in them that would make me want to pay for a subscription to his site. There are many much better painting videos available for free.
   
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 Irbis wrote:
 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
“instructing hobbyists around the world to paint their models to a high standard via their popular videos“

If by, “high standard” they mean, competent tabletop standard, then yeah.

 Dagstyrr wrote:
There are classic military model painters who'd you get more out of honestly. He's a nice guy but very basic technique wise.

You guys are either snobs who have Giraldez in their gaming club or only watched his videos for very beginners on GW website if you think high end stuff he has on his page is 'very basic tabletop standard'


I enjoy watching Duncan, but to be honest, I don't think his painting style is great. That style (base, layer, shade, clean up shade with another coat of layer, highlight, highlight again) is quite time consuming for what I'd describe as a good but not exceptional result.

I find the quality to be too low for display models, but too time consuming for the rank and file troops.

But yeah, I do like Duncan, but I don't think I've ever followed one of his tutorials and mostly used them to get an idea of the colours he was using to get a certain look.

   
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I have an issue with Duncan or for the matter GW videos, you seen one you seen them all, Im afraid.

Nice chaps but repeating ad eternal the same process does not add value to the tutorials. In fact I struggle to watch the full length of the tutorials and just skip them.

Quality assessment I think it depends on the eye of the beholder XD Its ok man.

   
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Macon, GA

I find the dunking on Duncan (wordplay!) to be a weird flex in the community. His stuff looks better than most fully painted armies, and of course better than the hordes of grey plastic that shows up to most shops.

His videos are clearly aimed at people that are either pretty new to painting, or that prefer higher production values. I find the actual material covered by, say Vince Ventrurella, of more value, but also not as pleasant to watch/listen to. So I get it

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