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Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Sarouan wrote:
Just ask Dungeon Saga's rule designer how much he was paid for his work with Mantic Games.

so you don't know anything about it and therefore want us to ask those people so that we see that other companies are bad as well to shine a brighter light on GW?

Sarouan wrote:

You don't seem to understand. The core issue here is not "being paid worse". It's "being paid fairly for their work". The purpose of my post was to point there is a problem of how much is paid such a position in all miniature game companies, and it's not solved by saying one company is worst than another.

of course it is about fair payment
but "fair" is different depending on what the company you work for can afford

so there is a difference between a company that makes millions in profit but pays minimum wages, or a company that just makes enough money to pay the people

when people complain about Amazon not paying well enough for the job, bringing up a small company in central africa that is also paying minimum wages only adds nothing to the discussion except for "you situation is not that bad because others are paid bad as well)

so what is you point, that we should not blame GW for doing it because we should assume that others do it as well?

Sarouan wrote:
If there are still people going for that, why paying a higher salary ?

because you can afford it
yes this is a general problem because modern schools of economics try to burn the world with short term gains on everything
and at the same time running campaigns that it is on the people to change the world

but stop blaming the people, it is the company and the company alone
if GW pays badly, there is only GW to blame and no one else
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sarouan wrote:

There are always excuses not to raise salaries when you run a company. Though, I'll be curious to know what is Ronnie's pay in comparison to the rest of the employees at Mantic Games...but that, you won't have an answer from Mantic Games, most likely.

"Yes, the multi-million pound company is paying it's talent like trash, bUt WhAT aBouT tHe SmAlLeR cOmPanY, hUh?"
We're not discussion mantic or pp or warlord games, you might've noticed.
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 kodos wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?


The difference here is the relative size/profit margins of both of these companies.

If GW was a fledgling company or much smaller player in the industry I could understand these wage levels. In that instance, it's an 'everyone in this together' - all of the staff don't earn that much money, the owner has remortgaged their house and taken out bank loans to try and make the business work. There are bonuses 'in kind', perhaps a big success will lead to a big Xmas party and some bonus pay.

But, GW is a massive, established, multi-millon pound company. Their exec-level are on massive wage level (I saw £650k listed for Kevin Rowntree - this is significantly more than the CEO earns in my business, one which is much larger and employees a lot more people than GW) and they constantly pay out for shareholders, while the creative heart and soul (and actually, think lots of other staff from the sounds of it) are paid peanuts and treated poorly.

I absolutely don't think GW is alone in this - lots of people have pointed out that there are many 'creative' industries which suffer from the same ailment. But, that absolutely doesn't make it right. And considering that GW is supposed to be the 'city on the hill' in this market (and in many ways operates as a monopoly), really you would think they don't have to do this, they could try to be a bit less gakky and a bit more generous with their staff.

You can absolutely see why so many developers in particular move on from there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 10:59:25


 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Sarouan wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:

mattjgilbert, former head of the RC, said at one time he's a volunteer because Mantic could never afford to match the pay in his day job... and yet now he works at Mantic.


Yes, that's what Mantic Games would surely say. Just like James got the same answer from GW's department about his payrise.
And now mattjgilbert indeed works at Mantic but not for the RC anymore.
Which is already telling something, you know : if he was paid fairly for it, I bet he would be considering still doing it.
That's the real point here.


Matt said he will only work full time for Mantic if they will pay him accordingly

Now he works for Mantic and your conclusion is that Mantic must pay him badly because otherwise he would still own his other job and doing it for free?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 11:18:20


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





As someone who works for an organisation that employs thousands of people, I think such types of organisations rarely give a crap about their employees, and see them as largely being replaceable.

It's the small businesses that are more likely going to appreciate the effort you put in and how much of a pain in the arse it will be to replace you if you go.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 11:04:19


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kodos wrote:

but stop blaming the people, it is the company and the company alone


You do know that companies are made of people, right ? It's not "GW as a company" who take decisions...it's specific people working at different levels. Mantic Games is the same.

Stop hating GW blindly. Actually look at the real roots of the problem. Otherwise, when GW will disappear and another takes its place to do the exact same practices, you will just blame another fake target for something that will still be there.


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As someone who works for an organisation that employs thousands of people, I think such types of organisations rarely give a crap about their employees, and see them as largely being replaceable.

It's the small businesses that are more likely going to appreciate the effort you put in and how much of a pain in the arse it will be to replace you if you go.


Small businesses aren't more likely to do that, because that is always originating from humans behind the companies. And humans have different points of view. A small business run by people who think that base workers are repleceable easily and not caring about paying them fairly will keep treating them like so. Like I said, size or profits don't matter. It's the mindset of people taking decisions and deciding the budget allowance for salaries...and of those who accept it.

It's not something that change that easily. It takes time to change the mindset of such an organization, but it still can be done.

GW isn't an exception here, nor the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:


Now he works for Mantic and your conclusion is that Mantic must pay him badly because otherwise he would still own his other job and doing it for free?


No, I'm glad for him.

I'm just saying the rest of RC is still not paid for their RC work. That's all that should matter to you, since what they do is really beneficial for your favorite game KoW and I'm sure they could do more wonders if they could work on it full time and paid, but you're clearly not focused on that. Guess it doesn't really matter for you.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 11:33:03


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

It's fun watching Sarouan twist himself into knots trying to shift the blame away from GW.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in eg
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Cairo, Egypt

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I see no new information here.

Entertainment industries (all of them) do not pay well.

This whole thread could be summarized as "water is wet".


It's worth noting that some portions of film and live entertainment are in fact paid well.

Because they're unionized.

 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

What is interesting is this wishy washy statement that people say.

Getting only X for doing Y.

As if the person doing X for X isn't a human being with needs also. As if doing Y makes people doing X subhuman or somethng.

Bizarre sentiment of our culture as to how we degrade our fellow peoples.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 12:11:40


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in au
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What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)

   
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Only thing that could work would be stop buying models. That's the only thing GW worries about. Model sales.

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)

I'm sure GW consumers would be willing to pay more for the product if it meant that the people producing it could lead comfortable, middle-class lives.

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

 Nurglitch wrote:
Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)

I'm sure GW consumers would be willing to pay more for the product if it meant that the people producing it could lead comfortable, middle-class lives.


GWs rules aren't worth the paper their printed on, or the megabytes.
   
Made in us
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

I see a lot of "I don't understand how they pay the guys designing their products so little, especially someone putting out blockbuster after blockbuster", etc. and I feel obliged to remind you all that GWs actual products are miniatures, not games nor rules.

Which is not to say that the pay isn't gak (it is) and GW isn't a horrid employer (they are), but its worth pointing out that the rules are considered an afterthought or an accessory and not what GW is making its fortunes on, and it stands to reason that they probably wouldn't prioritize compensating the people responsible for them at anything approaching a reasonable rate. James said it in one of his posts that he wasn't sure what the sculptors, etc. were paid, so its entirely possible thats "where the money is" (though I would not be surprised that they're getting a bad deal too). I also wouldn't be surprised if, at the corporate level, GWs execs and senior management have no idea what goes into game design and figure any joe off the street could do it competently with no training or effort. That sort of attitude will depress the value and worth that they ascribe to personnel that provide such functions and services, after all why pay top dollar for it when you believe a chimpanzee with a typewriter will do it for a banana?




Worth mentioning James and Sophie are married and business partners at Needy Cat, yknow for the kids out there white knighting for GW and insisting this is some conspiracy to besmirch the companies good name.

 Valander wrote:
I'm not surprised, honestly, for a multitude of reasons. Firstly, the tabletop game industry isn't exactly among the great paying jobs out there; there are many, many stories of many companies paying minimum wages or just above them. Large companies (not sure how many employees GW really has, but their revenues are pretty big for the tabletop game industry) always, always try to pay bare minimum that they can for non-executive positions. And, when you also have a pretty big fanbase of folks who see making games as a "dream job," you can get away with it even more.


My girlfriend works in the tabletop game industry in marketing for a company that is significantly smaller than GW is (though probably about as well known, arguably moreso considering what their major product lines are), and she makes almost double what James was being paid - which is still, IMO, too damned little, but nowhere near as severe as the situation he faced with GW.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
As a software engineer I learned to avoid the companies that state they want people that "don't do the work for the money" but because they love the work. Had two jobs back to back where they'd constantly state they'd fire anyone that wasn't happy about their pay as it meant "they weren't passionate" and weren't worth what they were paying you (which was usually half what other companies were). Some really abusive stuff. So I've seen what James went through in person.


Another red flag "we're like a family here". If you hear that in an interview, just walk out. Trust me.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Makes rules.....cant afford to play games......sounds fair.


TBH, I'm more shocked that James didn't even get designers copies or whatever. My girlfriends employer gives their staff free copies of almost all of their product, barring some of the really expensive stuff (like $200+ items). She easily brings home an extra $5-10k in free product per year if I was to guess (which makes her low income more tolerable for her, but also gives us a headache as to what to do with it all).

scarletsquig wrote:
One of my hopes is that the 3d printing revolution will eventually result in indie miniatures games being produced alongside the minis, giving work to developers and 2d artists along the way.
We're starting to see the early stages of that happening, hopefully it will continue.
Automation and owning the means of production is happening right now with wargames, it's never been easier to produce small batches of minis or books.


As someone on the design/production side of this as opposed to the consumer side, I'm not optimistic about it. Whats actually happening is that the "3D printing revolution" is driving down prices for our work and devaluing artists and sculptors output. It also an operation that doesn't scale well, its incredibly time consuming and the margins are much tighter than you realize (yes, even selling digital goods has a cost of goods sold, and its higher than you think). Its a full time job but not one which you can live off of, which means you need to have another full time job to actually pay your bills, leaving you less time to actually do the work you need to do. Hiring staff actually costs a lot of money - more than what most people can justify - so if you want to maintain consistent output you're stuck with freelancers who are willing to work for peanuts well underneath what they would get in the video game/entertainment industry, etc. A lot of those freelancers themselves are more than capable of setting up their own kickstarter/webstore/patreon so you can't rely on them long-term which means you're constantly having to find and recruit new ones which takes more time and more money, because freelancers are less likely to work with you if you don't send steady work their way, etc. etc. etc.

Its a snake eating itself, basically. Theres a few who through good marketing/word of mouth, first mover advantage, or just plain dumb luck have achieved mass to get good consistent incomes flowing, but for the most part its nothing to write home about and some of the biggest names in the "3d printing revolution" (Raging Heroes, Titan Forge, etc.) are guys/companies that are also really scummy and pay their freelancers bottom dollar, so really the opposite of what you think will happen is whats actually occuring.

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UK

Do GW still offer large scale staff discounts on product?

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Cairo, Egypt

 Mr Morden wrote:
Do GW still offer large scale staff discounts on product?


I understand they fire folks who resell stuff on ebay, if that's your question.


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

James added the following today:
A friend with connections at GW has pointed out that there have been improvements since I left, but current employees aren't allowed to discuss that sort of thing on social media, which risks skewing the dialogue.

I think it's important to bear that in mind!
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)
As consumers I don't think there's much we can do. Buying shares and turning up to the shareholder meetings might get them to listen.
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

 Kanluwen wrote:
James added the following today:
A friend with connections at GW has pointed out that there have been improvements since I left, but current employees aren't allowed to discuss that sort of thing on social media, which risks skewing the dialogue.

I think it's important to bear that in mind!


"Things are much better now, but we're contractually forbidden from discussing in what way things are better" isn't a red flag at all. Not in the slightest.
   
Made in gb
Dutiful Citizen Levy




NW UK

One of the GW rules writers had to go in "disguise" to tournaments for other games because they weren't allowed to be seen playing other systems. He turned up to a GB event I was at with a fake moustache and fake name!

I believe that's changed a bit as Peachy tweeted ages ago he plays non GW stuff.

Casual nerd and occasional content creator Tabletop Magpie YT channel  
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

chaos0xomega wrote:
As someone on the design/production side of this as opposed to the consumer side, I'm not optimistic about it. Whats actually happening is that the "3D printing revolution" is driving down prices for our work and devaluing artists and sculptors output. It also an operation that doesn't scale well, its incredibly time consuming and the margins are much tighter than you realize (yes, even selling digital goods has a cost of goods sold, and its higher than you think). Its a full time job but not one which you can live off of, which means you need to have another full time job to actually pay your bills, leaving you less time to actually do the work you need to do. Hiring staff actually costs a lot of money - more than what most people can justify - so if you want to maintain consistent output you're stuck with freelancers who are willing to work for peanuts well underneath what they would get in the video game/entertainment industry, etc. A lot of those freelancers themselves are more than capable of setting up their own kickstarter/webstore/patreon so you can't rely on them long-term which means you're constantly having to find and recruit new ones which takes more time and more money, because freelancers are less likely to work with you if you don't send steady work their way, etc. etc. etc.


I have seen this happening in all kind of different design/artists sectors

every time some new machinery that makes the process easier/faster comes up, all hobby artists jump for it because now they just need to buy that machine or sell supporting equipment, to make a living and become a full time artist
usually it starts going down as soon as the market fills up because having 90% of them doing the very same in slightly different styles ends with not enough customers to support all of them, while they start selling their stuff for cheap and undercut competitors, making bad calculations on what they really need to run their business (often something simple like electricity)

that you only need to sell files makes it much easier than in the past to find enough people for your niche, yet it is also easier for people to start and much more are trying to get into the market and the wargaming market is limited

won't take long until everyone has more than he will ever print, and printing armies is just cheap compared to GW prizes (or you want a scale no ones supports, which is why Warmaster is a thing now, those people who want it can print it), and not going for the cost of "time" needed
there is a reason why pre-painted terrain sells, because for a lot of people time is much more valuable than money and there printing it themselves is not an option (not with all the "cheap" files were you need to get the printer setup/support placement etc. done on your own)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

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Made in be
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's fun watching Sarouan twist himself into knots trying to shift the blame away from GW.


I take comfort in your predictable posts always missing the point of my interventions and put the blame on GW anyway.

But more seriously :

chaos0xomega wrote:


As someone on the design/production side of this as opposed to the consumer side, I'm not optimistic about it. Whats actually happening is that the "3D printing revolution" is driving down prices for our work and devaluing artists and sculptors output. It also an operation that doesn't scale well, its incredibly time consuming and the margins are much tighter than you realize (yes, even selling digital goods has a cost of goods sold, and its higher than you think). Its a full time job but not one which you can live off of, which means you need to have another full time job to actually pay your bills, leaving you less time to actually do the work you need to do. Hiring staff actually costs a lot of money - more than what most people can justify - so if you want to maintain consistent output you're stuck with freelancers who are willing to work for peanuts well underneath what they would get in the video game/entertainment industry, etc. A lot of those freelancers themselves are more than capable of setting up their own kickstarter/webstore/patreon so you can't rely on them long-term which means you're constantly having to find and recruit new ones which takes more time and more money, because freelancers are less likely to work with you if you don't send steady work their way, etc. etc. etc.

Its a snake eating itself, basically. Theres a few who through good marketing/word of mouth, first mover advantage, or just plain dumb luck have achieved mass to get good consistent incomes flowing, but for the most part its nothing to write home about and some of the biggest names in the "3d printing revolution" (Raging Heroes, Titan Forge, etc.) are guys/companies that are also really scummy and pay their freelancers bottom dollar, so really the opposite of what you think will happen is whats actually occuring.


Thank you for your intervention and a good reminder than being "smaller" doesn't necessarily mean everyone gets paid fairly.

And yes, sadly, this is the truth behind the "3D printing revolution". People who buy cheap STL files like to delude themselves thinking they do good and allow indies to live from it, but the harm on long term is yet to be paid...

It's a constant downfall spiral...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 13:26:05


 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

 Graphite wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
James added the following today:
A friend with connections at GW has pointed out that there have been improvements since I left, but current employees aren't allowed to discuss that sort of thing on social media, which risks skewing the dialogue.

I think it's important to bear that in mind!


"Things are much better now, but we're contractually forbidden from discussing in what way things are better" isn't a red flag at all. Not in the slightest.


now we are much more closer as a family and talk much more often with the management

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in be
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 kodos wrote:

there is a reason why pre-painted terrain sells, because for a lot of people time is much more valuable than money and there printing it themselves is not an option (not with all the "cheap" files were you need to get the printer setup/support placement etc. done on your own)


Wait for the technology of 3D printing evolving enough so that you can print in color right away for a fair price. Then it will be a nightmare for all people getting paid to paint miniatures...
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)


Doing nothing is most likely the best move, GW will eventually shoot themselves in the face

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Sarouan wrote:


You do know that companies are made of people, right ? It's not "GW as a company" who take decisions...it's specific people working at different levels. Mantic Games is the same.

Stop hating GW blindly. Actually look at the real roots of the problem. Otherwise, when GW will disappear and another takes its place to do the exact same practices, you will just blame another fake target for something that will still be there.


I'd argue GW are the root of the problem, at least as far as the wargaming industry goes. They're by far the biggest company in their small niche of tabletop wargaming, making large profits every year. They set the tone for the industry due to their size, and their domination makes it difficult for other companies to get a big enough piece of the pie to compete on salary.


Sarouan wrote:


Small businesses aren't more likely to do that, because that is always originating from humans behind the companies.


That has not been anything like my experience. Yes, you can get some egotistical owners or people who are just out of their depth at a small company. However, small businesses tend to value their employees more because for them hiring and firing isn't something they do literally every week. They don't have extensive HR operations to deal with the paperwork involved and they tend to be much more acutely aware of the contributions of their staff. Keeping good staff happy is a key part of running a small business because they take very real hits to their bottom line when one of their 10 employees leaves and it takes months to replace them.


   
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[DCM]
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Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

beast_gts wrote:
Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)
As consumers I don't think there's much we can do. Buying shares and turning up to the shareholder meetings might get them to listen.
People looked at that around 5 years ago, and you'd need a LOT of shares.

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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 Skinnereal wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)
As consumers I don't think there's much we can do. Buying shares and turning up to the shareholder meetings might get them to listen.
People looked at that around 5 years ago, and you'd need a LOT of shares.


It needs something like this. Or, it gets big enough that mainstream media takes notice. One news story on the BBC, Independent, or Guardian might put pressure on GW PR to try and improve things and actually improve policy.

The problem with 'keep everything in the dark, you are not allowed to discuss salary' only serves to maintain these awful pay and working condition disparities. They wouldn't care about it otherwise.

That kind of story - of exec and worker pay-gap - gets a lot of mileage at the moment, think people are starting to take more notice of it. That's really the issue here; if GW was a small or struggling company trying to build a fan base it wouldn't be as deplorable. But you have the situation now where the company is booming, record £million profits and share prices, and you basically have the situation where the exec level are presumably sat like Daniel Day-Lewis from There will be Blood (with a top-hat) cackling while smoking a cigar while wondering what luxury item to spend their 6-figure salary on, while the actual creative core of the company (which is GW as far as I am concerned) having to make horrible life choices about where to live or just support their family, because the salary is so crap.

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 Graphite wrote:


"Things are much better now, but we're contractually forbidden from discussing in what way things are better" isn't a red flag at all. Not in the slightest.


"We are being treated well"

(blinks twice)

"We have not been abused"

(blinks twice)

"Do not believe the lies our enemies tell you"

(blinks twice)

"This is a workers' paradise"

 
   
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TheGoodGerman just started this thread - GW employee bonus. Key point:

Warhammer retailer Games Workshop is handing its shop workers, model makers, designers and support staff a £5,000 bonus after sales and profits surged during the pandemic.

The Nottingham-based company behind the popular fantasygame and Lord of the Rings figurines said its 2,600 ordinary workers would split a £10.6m special bonus on top of a £2.6m profit share.

Senior managers will share an extra £1.1m bonus pot, up from £300,000 the year before, after sales rose by just over a third to £361m and pretax profits soared almost 70% to £151m.

The company has also cancelled business rates relief and other pandemic financial support from the government.
   
 
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