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 Manchu wrote:
It’s not my idiosyncratic opinion, it’s the actual impact of TLJ. TFA had detractors but there was a general sense of unity among fans. TLJ quite explicitly made fun of a substantial portion of its audience. Whether you want to cll it what it is or use marketing euphemisms (“subverting expectations”), the result is the same: a huge mess.

The fact that people are still in denial about this is astonishing. The reason Disney is backing off Star Wars is obviously not because things are going too well.

Even people who didn’t dislike TLJ can see how this movie disrupted the new trilogy. Whether JJ would have made something worthwhile had his vision been borne out in Episode VIII is highly debatable but TLJ being a huge mistake is beyond question.

Especially after TRoS, it's extremely easy to see how TLJ botched the pacing of the trilogy, particularly with the "wtf" plot points that directly contradict TLJ and also just come out of left field. TLJ completely drops the slow reveal that Finn is force sensitive and does nothing to advance his story. Rey's background being important is completely dismissed in what is now a blatant case of "lying to audience" about something that ends up being really fething important to her character. Poe... I've bitched about everything involving him in TLJ enough. Don't care to do it again. I can't help but notice how Palpatine and Rey's parentage could have been more potently foreshadowed and revealed in the second film, rather than made bloody obvious within the first few minutes of the third like JJ was rushing to get important details out of the way.

TLJ was a pile of bad ideas with worse execution that left the entire flow of the sequel story fluttering in the wind without direction and tore the fan base apart so badly that it's visibly effected sales of subsequent films. TLJ has demostratably damaged it's franchised, made clear in the performance of Solo (<400mil) and TRoS (<800mil). For context, TFA banked a massive 2 billion at the box office, more that TLJ or TRoS combined. It's especially hard not to attribute Solo bombing at the box office to swirling rumors of it's troubled development and how easily fans believed them after the bitter pill of TLJ. This isn't comparable to whiny babies bitching about Brie Larson's face and how Captain Marvel would fail because it "angered fans" and then the rest of us just shake our heads as the film banks a billion at the box office to ride MCU hype to glory. Something "broke" Star Wars and that something is very obviously TLJ.

As an aside to this line of talk, for my part, I liked Luke in TLJ. Kind of a bummer to see him as a defeated hermit, but I thought that oddly fit Luke's self-sacrficing and idealistic nature in a way, cutting himself off and hiding because it keeps the galaxy safe (unaware that Palpatine is manipulating things behind the scenes). The way he died would have been really cool if the rest of the movie wouldn't have been such a fething mess from start to finish, and a capstone to the story's first hero (the bit about Luke always looking toward Tomorrow was a wonderfully fitting line, completely out of step with RJ pissent attempts at characterization). It's also the only part of TLJ that felt to me like Star Wars, so part of me kind of suspects it's the only part of JJ's original ideas that RJ kept.

Yeah, I kinda agree with you. I liked the Rey-Kylo plot, though I was unhappy with how it ended in the movie, and I did like TLJ Luke Skywalker and his perspective that the Jedi order was not worth saving (a point of view I agree with!). I always thought the point of Luke was that he was not really a very good Jedi, because he was a good person. Jedi are not good people, on the whole. They are too distant from what makes people tick.

I also liked the last scene with force projection, it was pretty satisfying and I think cooler than if he had shown up for a laser sword fight - Luke had never been an amazing swordfighter. I never read any EU stuff about Luke so to me it was not jarring to see this stuff.

The only problem I have with it is that it gaks on the original trilogy by basically making every victory meaningless. All the beloved characters end up sad failures, and I think that was poor storytelling and not very generous to the original movies or characters. I genuinely think it would have been better to set the movies further in the future, and only have the older actors show up in flashbacks or something rather than being central to the plot.

But TLJ does not commit to it's idea that the Jedi are harmful and goes back on it, with Luke already accepting he was wrong before the end of the film. And then by the end we are back to the duopoly between Sith and Jedi which I think is really boring and played out by now.

However I totally agree that everything outside of Luke, Rey and Kylo is a mess in that film. Finn should have been the one giving the speech about the cost of war, and he should have had more to do rather than re-threading his arc from TFA. Poe learning a lesson is not a bad arc, but the way it was done was boring, frustrating and dumb. The entire space chase section and the stupid casino planet are just not enjoyable to watch at all, and watching the Resistance get utterly destroyed from their own incompetence is not a very satisfying experience. That is why I think it is such a deeply flawed film. It challenged some ideas about Star Wars in ways I thought were interesting, but JJ Abrams was NOT interested in doing that (which is also a fair choice) and the resulting disconnect just leaves everything up in the air. It also has some beautifully concieved visuals and shots, I think the best in the sequel trilogy.

Considering these are producer created movies rather than director lead, I have to put the blame at Kathleen Kennedy's door for that. I hate to say that, because I think she gets a lot of weird hate from people who have seemed to miss out on the fact that Star Wars has always had "SJW" themes and messages, but it seems like she was just not competent at her job this time.
Really weird, because she is an industry veteran who has worked on lots of successful stuff.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

Going to keep this really simple for you. Consider how ANH wraps up compared to how TFA wraps up. World of difference.

Ah... ANH: Death star blew up. TFA: Death star planet blew up.

Yeah. Huge difference.

Are you for real?


I mean, are you also a fan of Star Wars: Krull? It ends with them blowing up the Death Star castle. Same thing, right?

Then tell me what this oh-so-enormous difference is between the two. Rather than be insulting, try being convincing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Jesus Christ that last image.


If anyone wants to know why we shouldn't assume the fans know best, that's why!

No should ever assume that.
Fans, like customers, tend to be clueless jerks.

Perhaps, but without our money your product fails, PERIOD.

 Vulcan wrote:

No should ever assume that.
Fans, like customers, tend to be clueless jerks.

Perhaps, but without our money your product fails, PERIOD.

I'm not sure who 'our' and 'your' are in this scenario, but in terms of the new star wars films, getting money from fans apparently isn't a problem-- $725 million so far, which is roughly two hundred million dollars past the projected costs (production+advertising). Hardly anything to scoff at. The scorn of 'fans' seems irrelevant, and that's speaking as someone who thinks these movies are garbage (still haven't seen this one).

An indifferent Chinese audience, yeah, that's a problem (just $20 million). But not from fans.

Voss wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

No should ever assume that.
Fans, like customers, tend to be clueless jerks.

Perhaps, but without our money your product fails, PERIOD.

I'm not sure who 'our' and 'your' are in this scenario, but in terms of the new star wars films, getting money from fans apparently isn't a problem. ($725 million so far)

An indifferent Chinese audience, yeah, that's a problem (just $20 million). But not from fans.

To be honest, I think Disney is showing it's own lack of foresight thinking a story about young idealistic heroes fighting a tyrannical regime would ever do well in China

 LordofHats wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

No should ever assume that.
Fans, like customers, tend to be clueless jerks.

Perhaps, but without our money your product fails, PERIOD.

I'm not sure who 'our' and 'your' are in this scenario, but in terms of the new star wars films, getting money from fans apparently isn't a problem. ($725 million so far)

An indifferent Chinese audience, yeah, that's a problem (just $20 million). But not from fans.

To be honest, I think Disney is showing it's own lack of foresight thinking a story about young idealistic heroes fighting a tyrannical regime would ever do well in China

Yeah, a people's revolution against imperialism and dictatorial tyranny is just so... unChinese.

Voss wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

No should ever assume that.
Fans, like customers, tend to be clueless jerks.

Perhaps, but without our money your product fails, PERIOD.

I'm not sure who 'our' and 'your' are in this scenario, but in terms of the new star wars films, getting money from fans apparently isn't a problem-- $725 million so far, which is roughly two hundred million dollars past the projected costs (production+advertising). Hardly anything to scoff at. The scorn of 'fans' seems irrelevant, and that's speaking as someone who thinks these movies are garbage (still haven't seen this one).

An indifferent Chinese audience, yeah, that's a problem (just $20 million). But not from fans.

Bear in mind the trilogy started with a $2 BILLION dollar film, and was well over $1 billion in sales at this point in it's theater run. Now tell me how this is anything but disappointment on Disney's part.

"Your Snoke theory sucks"-Rian Johnosn.


Yeah, I'm only imagining RJ's disdain. Drink that green titty milk Luke!


I can also see we've checked "star wars has always been dumb" off the bingo card. We're now trawling up 40 year old internet posts to prove these new SW movies aren't uniquely dumb, but its always been the fandom. Or something. I'm not exactly sure how my grandpa being a twit makes JJ not a hack. Or RJ not cancer for the franchise.

Yeah, a people's revolution against imperialism and dictatorial tyranny is just so... unChinese.

I’m sure HK would be very interested if the rest of China wasn’t so behind their tyrannical government being tyrannical.

The original starwars movies were never released in cinemas in china. No SW movie does well there because they have no nostalgia for them. Their first cinema exposure to SW was the phantom menace. They see the movies unclouded by rose tinted glasses for the dumb action they are.

 Da Boss wrote:
Finn should have been the one giving the speech about the cost of war, and he should have had more to do rather than re-threading his arc from TFA. Poe learning a lesson is not a bad arc, but the way it was done was boring, frustrating and dumb.

Something that could have fixed TLJ, and made Canto Bight just that bit better - have it be Finn and Poe who go to Canto Bight, and Finn is the one who points out to Poe about war not being all fun and games, you can't just hop in an X-Wing and blow stuff up. It makes no sense that it's Rose who points out how children are affected by war to a literal former child solider.

Change Canto Bight so that it's Finn teaching Poe the cost of war and that it's not as simple as "fly around in X-Wing", and maybe Poe is able to teach/encourage Finn to feel like he truly belongs in the Resistance, doesn't feel like an outsider, and feel genuinely wanted and loved for who he is, despite his past traumas.

There, two character arcs rewritten, making far more sense, and allows us to consolidate characters. Scrap Rose and Holdo (I didn't like Rose's character in TLJ, but I hate that they essentially wrote her out - either give her a more defined role beyond teaching the former child soldier that war is bad, or just write her out), don't blow Leia up, leave her in charge of the ship as the gang go to Canto Bight *under her orders*, and do one of the many other solutions to "how do we stop the First Order fleet" than the Holdo Maneuver.

Some time ago, Reds8n brought up how he assumed from the OT that the Jedi were more like the knights of the Round Table, as opposed to some kind of monks. I had the same idea. The Prequels really screwed up the Jedi. But even without the Prequels, the notion that Yoda and Kenobi could say, well the only answer is for a son to murder his father, this makes them seem pretty blinkered and the lesson seems to be that it took someone pure hearted and naive rather than someone old and cynical to save the day.

The notion that Luke eventually became old and cynical isn’t especially terrible in itself but we definitely needed some explanation of why. Did he ever have conversations with Force ghost Anakin? How did he figure out that the Jedi need to end? How did he go from heroically throwing aside his weapon rather than murdering his own father to contemplating murdering his own nephew?

And given all this about how the Jedi are really deeply flawed, how am I am suppose to relate to all these buttmunch Jedi encouraging Rey?

None of it makes any sense, even superficially.

The real bummer about TRoS is that Palpatine's entrance was rushed as all hell (as with everything in the first 15 minutes). Everything would have been much cooler going into this movie if the end of TLJ would have been a variation of his reveal message interrupting the Resistance's call for help, ending with the trademark Palpatine laugh, Leia's horrified face as only she truly gets the weight of it, and then credits.

 Da Boss wrote:

The only problem I have with it is that it gaks on the original trilogy by basically making every victory meaningless. All the beloved characters end up sad failures, and I think that was poor storytelling and not very generous to the original movies or characters..

The thing is, a fairytale, 'Happily Ever After' ending doesn't create a compelling setting for a sequel. The EU had this problem - after defeating the Empire, there was never a particularly impressive opponent until the Yuuzhan Vong came along, because the New Republic always had the upper hand. Even Thrawn, the most impressive of the post-RotJ warlords, was still an underdog. It's the good guy who is supposed to be the underdog.

I'm a big fan of David Gemmell. As predictable as his plots get, most of his books follow an ongoing timeline covering several cultures as their star waxes and wanes. That recurring idea that any victory is only ever temporary, and quite often the good guys in this story are the villains in the next one is something that I really enjoyed.

Which is a long way of saying that I'm totally fine with the fact that the victory at the end of RotJ wasn't a permanent win. It doesn't make the original movies any less awesome, but does, for me, make for a far more interesting setting than 'here's a bad guy challenging the New Republic, which is just like the Empire but not evil'.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The real bummer about TRoS is that Palpatine's entrance was rushed as all hell (as with everything in the first 15 minutes). Everything would have been much cooler going into this movie if the end of TLJ would have been a variation of his reveal message interrupting the Resistance's call for help, ending with the trademark Palpatine laugh, Leia's horrified face as only she truly gets the weight of it, and then credits.

Exactly. That was such a missed opportunity that it alone completely undermines Kennedy's claim that Palpatine's return was always planned. Rian Johnson was hired for Episode 8 with nothing more "here's Episode 7, do something preferably based on it".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vulcan wrote:

Bear in mind the trilogy started with a $2 BILLION dollar film, and was well over $1 billion in sales at this point in it's theater run. Now tell me how this is anything but disappointment on Disney's part.

Though, in original trilogy there was similar dropoff. ESB made only about half what ANH did.

 Manchu wrote:
Some time ago, Reds8n brought up how he assumed from the OT that the Jedi were more like the knights of the Round Table, as opposed to some kind of monks. I had the same idea. The Prequels really screwed up the Jedi. But even without the Prequels, the notion that Yoda and Kenobi could say, well the only answer is for a son to murder his father, this makes them seem pretty blinkered and the lesson seems to be that it took someone pure hearted and naive rather than someone old and cynical to save the day.

The notion that Luke eventually became old and cynical isn’t especially terrible in itself but we definitely needed some explanation of why. Did he ever have conversations with Force ghost Anakin? How did he figure out that the Jedi need to end? How did he go from heroically throwing aside his weapon rather than murdering his own father to contemplating murdering his own nephew?

And given all this about how the Jedi are really deeply flawed, how am I am suppose to relate to all these buttmunch Jedi encouraging Rey?

None of it makes any sense, even superficially.

I also thought that, and I thought it was interesting that Yoda was basically wrong about what Luke should do, for all his wisdom. I filled in the blanks with what I knew already, which is really the neat trick Lukas does with those first films. The problem is then he went back to fill in all the detail and you realise that Jedi are weirdos and Sith are all psychos. I think it says more about Lukas and his hangups than anything else. But now we are stuck with that, and it does make the Jedi less interesting and definitely a less likeable protagonist faction.

The real bummer about TRoS is it makes TFA completely unwatchable and shows TLJ isn't exceptional in it's disdain for the fans.

They seem to think we'll take any old dreck so long there are lightsabers and megalasers and force powers. Which, they may be right enough about to support a franchise.

We'll see I guess.

Girls at work gave me a cinema hamper for my 40th yesterday...

...hmmm...what to watch. See Episode 9 again or.........Cats?

 Vulcan wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

Going to keep this really simple for you. Consider how ANH wraps up compared to how TFA wraps up. World of difference.

Ah... ANH: Death star blew up. TFA: Death star planet blew up.

Yeah. Huge difference.

Are you for real?


I mean, are you also a fan of Star Wars: Krull? It ends with them blowing up the Death Star castle. Same thing, right?

Then tell me what this oh-so-enormous difference is between the two. Rather than be insulting, try being convincing.

eD.

Over the last couple pages, people more invested than I am spelled it out for you quite clearly. One is a stand alone film which tells a complete story. The other is incomplete and (although the side quest is completed) the main goal for the protagonists is left on a cliffhanger, with many questions left unanswered and character arcs left undecided. The tones of the endings are different. The details are different. The plot functions are different.

For ANH to have the same kind of ending, the film would need to stop when the heroes get R2 to Yavin and the tech plugs in the doohickey that downloads the Death Star plans—directed by George Lucas, do dadoot dadoot dadoodoodoodoot Dah Duh Dah Duh duh DUH Dah duh duh DUH DunDunDunDun!

Yeah, Disney knew they were doing three. Lucas didn't.

I thought they had a plan. They didn't..

 Scrabb wrote:

I thought they had a plan. They didn't..

They said from the start that they didn't, and that each of the directors would be doing their own thing. So while that approach is somewhat baffling, it's not really a surprise by this point.

Watching Episode 5 where Kenobi tells Luke to find Yoda, aka “the Jedi master who trained me”.

Isn’t that inconsistent with who trained him?

 Manchu wrote:
...Did he ever have conversations with Force ghost Anakin?

...None of it makes any sense, even superficially.

Just imagine that conversation

'Hey son. I've been watching you and Lando run around looking for that Sith dagger. Here's the location of my wayfinder.

By the way, Palpatine's not dead. Don't worry though, Yoda's gone to zap him with force lightning.

I've got to go talk to Kylo now because he thinks a voice in his head is me. See ya around.'

 d-usa wrote:
Watching Episode 5 where Kenobi tells Luke to find Yoda, aka “the Jedi master who trained me”.

Isn’t that inconsistent with who trained him?

That one was explained as Yoda training all of the apprentices before they are assigned to a Master - see the class that Obi-Wan interrupts when he's looking for Kamino in Ep2.

That would be “a” Jedi master, not “the” Jedi master.

Disney ruined Star Wars when they made mistakes like that.

 d-usa wrote:
That would be “a” Jedi master, not “the” Jedi master.

Disney ruined Star Wars when they made mistakes like that.

Are you suggesting that the prequels didn’t ruin Star Wars also?

 insaniak wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Watching Episode 5 where Kenobi tells Luke to find Yoda, aka “the Jedi master who trained me”.

Isn’t that inconsistent with who trained him?

That one was explained as Yoda training all of the apprentices before they are assigned to a Master - see the class that Obi-Wan interrupts when he's looking for Kamino in Ep2.

That's how I saw it, yeah. It's not that Yoda was his only teacher, but that Yoda, at some point, was a learning influence for Obi-Wan. Could have have said "a" instead of "the"? Possibly, but the gist is fundamentally the same.

It's an inconsistency, I suppose, but it's literally so minor, so harmless to the flow of the story and the plots therein that it literally affects nothing. Hyperspace ramming and other such things do not have that luxury, IMO.

The rest of the dialogue, Kenobi talking about being as angeh. as Luke when he was being trained, doesn’t imply one of many teachers. The script shows that Yoda and Kenobi were Master/Apprentice, not Homeroom Teacher and Student #2746.

It’s an inconsistency that has always been there, but that somehow newer existed until Disney fethed it all up.

Indeed. The fact that they didn't explain exactly how long Yoda trained Obi-Wan for, what they did on every second Thursday, and where Obi-Wan went after class means that the entire movie series is ruined.

It’s a fethup, same as Luke completing just how much training to almost become a complete Jedi in the time it takes Han to hide in a comet worm and escape to meet Lando.

Star Wars is full of screwups like that, half hearted retcons to attempt to fix those continuity mistakes, and logical inconsistencies.

Pretending that this started with Disney and that they somehow ruined Star Wars because of it is stupid, and that’s my point. Episode 7-9 is full of the same logical errors, inconsistencies, and continuity screwups that the series always had. Disney’s Star Wars isn’t really any different than Lucas’ Star Wars. I enjoyed them all for the same reason.