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Edit: I figured it out.

Fearless units do not auto-pass leadership tests. They auto pass morale, pinning, fear and regroup checks. These are types of leadership tests, but as fearless units are not categorically immune to leadership tests, they still need to check for IB

 luke1705 wrote:
Edit: I figured it out.

Fearless units do not auto-pass leadership tests. They auto pass morale, pinning, fear and regroup checks. These are types of leadership tests, but as fearless units are not categorically immune to leadership tests, they still need to check for IB

Right. With Fearless, you just ignore some of the results of a failed IB test, such as going-to-ground or falling back.

FYI this is why Malanthrope-in-a-box is >>>> Venomthrope-in-a-box. Sometimes the Venomthrope just leaves the box...why oh why?

 Frozocrone wrote:
Wraithknights can be tarpitted - Skytyrant could easily do that.

For Necrons, volume of shots will be key. I'm tempted to go back to Living Artillery simply for S4 AP4 Biovores. Take out the support that improves everything else though (Canoptek Spyder in Harvest formation, Overlord in Reclamation Legion, Stalkers, etc) and things should fall off the table. They're more durable, but not as killy as before, so you should have most of your stuff intact.

Skytyrant will kill wraith knights dead. Meanwhile volume of Fire will get you pretty close to nowhere against Newcrons unless the fire has an ap value. The sort of list I'm talking about is:

That is 24 bodies with a 3+/4++

5 Flyrants should kill 3 a turn. So it should take you about 8 turns to eliminate them. However, in my experience, they will be unable to do that. Meanwhile each group of Destroyers will be able to cause a flyrant to jink (1.67 wounds without Jinking), and still cause a grounding check (0.83 wounds when jinking). If grounded, wraiths can assault and kill them.

Killing them isn't easy (A Barbed Heirodule can do some work here, but probably not enough). Tarpitting them works, but you will run out of tarpits. I don't think there is an obvious solution that isn't so list tailored that it can compete against other armies.

 luke1705 wrote:
FYI this is why Malanthrope-in-a-box is >>>> Venomthrope-in-a-box. Sometimes the Venomthrope just leaves the box...why oh why?

The Venomthrope never has to leave the box. Even if he fails an IB test, he is never required to move towards the enemy. This means he doesn't have to assault. All it means is that, in the assault phase, he must declare an assault if he is capable of making a charge.

 jifel wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
FYI this is why Malanthrope-in-a-box is >>>> Venomthrope-in-a-box. Sometimes the Venomthrope just leaves the box...why oh why?

The Venomthrope never has to leave the box. Even if he fails an IB test, he is never required to move towards the enemy. This means he doesn't have to assault. All it means is that, in the assault phase, he must declare an assault if he is capable of making a charge.

the venom doesn't charge. it runs away. So it can and does fall back out of a bastion in it fails it IB one a 3 or less.



We have seen that you don’t need to have forge world to be competitive. As LVO has proven.
Within the ITC format do you need to have 3 Flyrants to be competitive?
I am looking at focusing on this tournament type on the west coast. I been running two tyrnats and have done ok. I am wondering about how to deal with the volume of LOW that tend to be at this tournament type. IK we have talked about so I am not needing to focus on them as much.
At tshift I ran the Barbed and the malan. I had some hart breck loss’s but I feel the it did well.
I am switching gears from that stye of play to a Null deployment style.
I iam needing to looks at what would be a good in a list of that style.

I am feeling the barbed is not a good choice for null while it is really good a trapdoor spider.
The malanthroupe or venoms are not a good pic either I think.
I feel the following units are options for a null stlye list
First the Good units.
Flyrants normal load out with possably Fighter ace upgrade
Dakka fex
Rippers swarms
Tyrannocyte
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Spore Mine Cluster

The so-so:
Mawloc
Trygon
Trygon prime
Raveners
Shrikes
Hormagaunts 20
Tervigon
Devourer gaunts 20
Garg’s
Tfex
Biovoves
Toxicrine
The rest are bad or I am not sure about// experience with.

Null deployment I am worried about having the fire power to take on army’s that have 3+ IK.
That’s a problem with Trapdoor as well I know.
I love to hear thoughts about units for Null and trapdoor. Which ones have been working for you and which you feel would stand a better chance in the ITC format.

shadowfinder wrote:
Within the ITC format do you need to have 3 Flyrants to be competitive?

Yes. There are too many armies that have the firepower to deal with 2 Flyrants, and besides the Barbed Heirodule they are our best anti-mech. This is the age of mech. You might be able to win an event with only 2 flyrants, but it is very matchup dependent. Even Sean's list was matchup dependent. The days of the TAC are long gone. So you've got to make list design decisions that maximize your good matchups while minimizing you bad matchups. 3 Flyrants works much better at this than 2. Especially with 25-30% of lists including 3 Flyrants because of the silly army comp rules. You can't run Tyranids and expect to win if you can't control the skies.

shadowfinder wrote:
Null deployment I am worried about having the fire power to take on army’s that have 3+ IK.

That isn't really your top fear. Its much easier to down 3 IK's than it is 6 Wave Serpents, or even 3 Wraith Knights. Tau can also present an effectively unkillable list, but because they can kill Tyranids with ease, null deployment works best against them anyways. Demon Summoning is a big problem, because you need to alpha-strike and hit as fast and hard as possible to neutralize their summoners.

shadowfinder wrote:
That’s a problem with Trapdoor as well I know.

I'm not entirely sure how you classify Trapdoor spider. I run a list very similar to BigPig's original trapdoor spider (3 Flyrants, Barbie, Malanthrope) when I run into LVO missions, but I think it is a certain playstyle that works for certain opponents, and against most opponents, a more aggressive playstyle is better. However, I can't remember the last time I played that list and failed to basically table a 3+ Imperial Knight opponent. Once again the problem isn't IKs, it is things like Grav Cents, and Tau, even Grey Knights can be a big challenge. I also struggled against Lynxes that one-shotted my Barbie, but those are apparently out of ITC these days.

tag8833 wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
Within the ITC format do you need to have 3 Flyrants to be competitive?

Yes. There are too many armies that have the firepower to deal with 2 Flyrants, and besides the Barbed Heirodule they are our best anti-mech. This is the age of mech. You might be able to win an event with only 2 flyrants, but it is very matchup dependent. Even Sean's list was matchup dependent. The days of the TAC are long gone. So you've got to make list design decisions that maximize your good matchups while minimizing you bad matchups. 3 Flyrants works much better at this than 2. Especially with 25-30% of lists including 3 Flyrants because of the silly army comp rules. You can't run Tyranids and expect to win if you can't control the skies.

shadowfinder wrote:
Null deployment I am worried about having the fire power to take on army’s that have 3+ IK.

That isn't really your top fear. Its much easier to down 3 IK's than it is 6 Wave Serpents, or even 3 Wraith Knights. Tau can also present an effectively unkillable list, but because they can kill Tyranids with ease, null deployment works best against them anyways. Demon Summoning is a big problem, because you need to alpha-strike and hit as fast and hard as possible to neutralize their summoners.

shadowfinder wrote:
That’s a problem with Trapdoor as well I know.

I'm not entirely sure how you classify Trapdoor spider. I run a list very similar to BigPig's original trapdoor spider (3 Flyrants, Barbie, Malanthrope) when I run into LVO missions, but I think it is a certain playstyle that works for certain opponents, and against most opponents, a more aggressive playstyle is better. However, I can't remember the last time I played that list and failed to basically table a 3+ Imperial Knight opponent. Once again the problem isn't IKs, it is things like Grav Cents, and Tau, even Grey Knights can be a big challenge. I also struggled against Lynxes that one-shotted my Barbie, but those are apparently out of ITC these days.

Thanks for the reply.
The Lynxes is disappearing????? When have they changed that?
I have had that thing ruin my day more then once.
I don't think they are going to allow cad +Lavianthan anymore. Don't know for sure just a feeling.

With null deployment have not had a lot of issues with wave serpents personally. Wraithknights I am still working on a decent counter for with Null deployment.
I love playing vs. tau with null deployment it so much fun seeing there faces go
As for trapdoor spider I have a list that works well. I just not want to play more aggressively most of the time. Null allows me to do this. I can still play deffence if I need to but the style for me is about getting face to face..\

Unfortunately you're probably right. Instead of just allowing dual CAD for everyone, they're going to take away CAD + Leviathan. Which is just dumb.

Meh. What next - Leviathan + Skyblight is "too much"? Why not just let everyone use the rules as printed?

In 5th a spore with 20 Devour gaunts was a common sight.
20 wound and 60 shots when oming in still sounds good. But I haven't seen anyone running that recentaly everything is abut the cheap 15 to 45 point troop choices.

So is 20 gaunts in a spore pod still a good option?
VS
Tfexs in a pod?
or a mawloc

tag8833 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Wraithknights can be tarpitted - Skytyrant could easily do that.

For Necrons, volume of shots will be key. I'm tempted to go back to Living Artillery simply for S4 AP4 Biovores. Take out the support that improves everything else though (Canoptek Spyder in Harvest formation, Overlord in Reclamation Legion, Stalkers, etc) and things should fall off the table. They're more durable, but not as killy as before, so you should have most of your stuff intact.

Skytyrant will kill wraith knights dead. Meanwhile volume of Fire will get you pretty close to nowhere against Newcrons unless the fire has an ap value. The sort of list I'm talking about is:

Spoiler:

Decurion
Reclamation Legion
Overlord (Res Orb)
10 Immortals
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
3 Tomb Blades (Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes) <- Nebuloscopes are awesome, but didn't end up fitting.

Canoptek Harvest
3 Scarabs
Spyder
6 Wraiths (Whip Coils)

Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord (Warscythe)
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers

That is 24 bodies with a 3+/4++

5 Flyrants should kill 3 a turn. So it should take you about 8 turns to eliminate them. However, in my experience, they will be unable to do that. Meanwhile each group of Destroyers will be able to cause a flyrant to jink (1.67 wounds without Jinking), and still cause a grounding check (0.83 wounds when jinking). If grounded, wraiths can assault and kill them.

Killing them isn't easy (A Barbed Heirodule can do some work here, but probably not enough). Tarpitting them works, but you will run out of tarpits. I don't think there is an obvious solution that isn't so list tailored that it can compete against other armies.

That's actually close to what I run for my Necrons, though I have Zahndrekh, 1 ghost ark, an upgraded D-lord, more tomb blades and less destroyers. In any case, you MUST kill the spider first or you will never kill the wraiths.

shadowfinder wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
FYI this is why Malanthrope-in-a-box is >>>> Venomthrope-in-a-box. Sometimes the Venomthrope just leaves the box...why oh why?

The Venomthrope never has to leave the box. Even if he fails an IB test, he is never required to move towards the enemy. This means he doesn't have to assault. All it means is that, in the assault phase, he must declare an assault if he is capable of making a charge.

the venom doesn't charge. it runs away. So it can and does fall back out of a bastion in it fails it IB one a 3 or less.

I don't believe you fall back if you are Fearless, which you are if you are inside a bastion.

We have seen that you don’t need to have forge world to be competitive. As LVO has proven.
Within the ITC format do you need to have 3 Flyrants to be competitive?
I am looking at focusing on this tournament type on the west coast. I been running two tyrnats and have done ok. I am wondering about how to deal with the volume of LOW that tend to be at this tournament type. IK we have talked about so I am not needing to focus on them as much.
At tshift I ran the Barbed and the malan. I had some hart breck loss’s but I feel the it did well.
I am switching gears from that stye of play to a Null deployment style.
I iam needing to looks at what would be a good in a list of that style.

I am feeling the barbed is not a good choice for null while it is really good a trapdoor spider.
The malanthroupe or venoms are not a good pic either I think.
I feel the following units are options for a null stlye list
First the Good units.
Flyrants normal load out with possably Fighter ace upgrade
Dakka fex
Rippers swarms
Tyrannocyte
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Spore Mine Cluster

The so-so:
Mawloc
Trygon
Trygon prime
Raveners
Shrikes
Hormagaunts 20
Tervigon
Devourer gaunts 20
Garg’s
Tfex
Biovoves
Toxicrine
The rest are bad or I am not sure about// experience with.

Null deployment I am worried about having the fire power to take on army’s that have 3+ IK.
That’s a problem with Trapdoor as well I know.
I love to hear thoughts about units for Null and trapdoor. Which ones have been working for you and which you feel would stand a better chance in the ITC format.

You don't need Forgeworld to win a tournament....but it sure does help. Same reason you don't need a Sicarian or a Fire Raptor as a Space Marine player, but they just make life a lot easier because they address multiple weaknesses in the army. That's what FW can do for your army. Units like the malanthrope or the Sicarian can make life a lot easier because they either address multiple concerns within your army or they do the role of a codex unit but they do it much more efficiently.

As for flyrants, yeah, you can still build a 2-flyrant Tyranid list and succeed. Triple-flyrants isn't a requirement. However, there was a reason why most Necrons ran 3 annihilation barges last edition or that Space Wolf players used to run 3 long fangs previously as well. You just get so much bang for the buck for those units. The flyrant is without a doubt (at least in my opinion) the most flexible and the best unit in the Tyranid codex. You really can't go wrong running more of them as long as you leave about 50% of the points for the rest of the army (that's just my rule-of-thumb). However, just as important is the style-of-play. If you don't like running more than 2 flyrants and prefer a more variety-of-units style of play, then by all means, run what you like. Your goal should be to build as competitive a list as fits your prefered style of play, not to build one just because everyone online is telling you such-and-such.

shadowfinder wrote:

Thanks for the reply.
The Lynxes is disappearing????? When have they changed that?

That's not for sure at this moment, though from the LVO exit polls, there's a good chance that ranged D will be going away.

I don't think they are going to allow cad +Lavianthan anymore. Don't know for sure just a feeling.

I don't see a reason why they won't. What they may ban is Leviathan + Necrons or Leviathan +Tau or Leviathan + Daemons....basically, the Come the Apocalypse allies. Leviathan + Tyranids is legit, just as the Grey Knight Nemesis Strike Force + Space Marines is legit.

rigeld2 wrote:
Unfortunately you're probably right. Instead of just allowing dual CAD for everyone, they're going to take away CAD + Leviathan. Which is just dumb.

Meh. What next - Leviathan + Skyblight is "too much"? Why not just let everyone use the rules as printed?

As I mentioned previously, the only thing they are thinking of banning is Leviathan + Come the Apocalypse allies, of which Leviathan + Tyranids aren't.

JY2, will you be doing battle reports from your LVO games? Curious to see whether your opinion on the best # of Flyrants has changed and why.

Yes, I will get to it eventually. It's just taking a while because I'm not very motivated by my performance there.

As for my opinion, you don't need to wait for my report. I can tell you now. The more flyrants you run, the more dominating your list is potentially. That is because most armies just aren't equipped to handle an overload of flyers, at least without resorting to list-tailoring. However, there is also the pitfall of certain armies with a very strong ground presence. Most likely, you will have problems with the Secondary missions (the Maelstrom missions) against these types of armies.

In short, a Pentyrant Tyranid army is a very strong build. However, it wasn't quite as dominating as I had expected. It really depends on the matchup (and as well as on a little luck). But I am still of the opinion that it is strong enough to win a major tournament.

What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.

They are 5 point less than last edition with more fire power and a better pod to ride in.

I have not seen them played by anyone lately and was wondering why to be honest. Is this old gem just forgotten or has it lost its luster?

I now that everyone has gone the 15 point troop option or 45 points. But are they really better?

shadowfinder wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.

235 points for 2 units that drop in the backfield.
1 of them throws 60 shots, 30 hit, 15 wound MEQs, meaning 5 MEQs dead.

Next round, they have no Synapse support (unless you're spending more points on making sure they do - relying on Flyrants doesn't always work) and have the worst (IMO) of all IBs.

For the cost of a Flyrant, they need to do much more than kill 5 MEQs the turn they drop.

rigeld2 wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.

235 points for 2 units that drop in the backfield.
1 of them throws 60 shots, 30 hit, 15 wound MEQs, meaning 5 MEQs dead.

Next round, they have no Synapse support (unless you're spending more points on making sure they do - relying on Flyrants doesn't always work) and have the worst (IMO) of all IBs.

For the cost of a Flyrant, they need to do much more than kill 5 MEQs the turn they drop.

Why would you drop a unit in with out the support it needs?

Two to 3 Flyrants are pretty good. There are ways to have other unit supporting it. as well. Of course those units would have to have there own part to do beside babysitting the gaunts.The point of the unit is to add a tool to your army. Since I have rarely seen squads of more then 5 MEQs that's pretty good killing a whole unit a turn.

A pretend list:
spore-field Fromation
3 drop spores
ripper swarm DP
2 Tyrnats
2 dakka fexs
20 gaunt squad with dev.
a Mawloc or a trygon prime
Salt the rest of the army to your taste.

This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.

 jy2 wrote:
Yes, I will get to it eventually. It's just taking a while because I'm not very motivated by my performance there.

As for my opinion, you don't need to wait for my report. I can tell you now. The more flyrants you run, the more dominating your list is potentially. That is because most armies just aren't equipped to handle an overload of flyers, at least without resorting to list-tailoring. However, there is also the pitfall of certain armies with a very strong ground presence. Most likely, you will have problems with the Secondary missions (the Maelstrom missions) against these types of armies.

In short, a Pentyrant Tyranid army is a very strong build. However, it wasn't quite as dominating as I had expected. It really depends on the matchup (and as well as on a little luck). But I am still of the opinion that it is strong enough to win a major tournament.

I strongly agree. The one "issue" I have with 5 Tyrants is a lack of table presence. I don't consider that a terrible problem, but it is a "style" issue. For your style (mobility based) it works quite well, and can potentially dominate. But I would be unhappy playing it, and that unhappiness would hinder my play. I don't know where the "magic" number is, but I suspect that 3 or 4 Winged Tyrants is in the ball park. SkyTyrant gives a table presence, so I am pretty exited with its possabilitys.

shadowfinder wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.

They are 5 point less than last edition with more fire power and a better pod to ride in.

I have not seen them played by anyone lately and was wondering why to be honest. Is this old gem just forgotten or has it lost its luster?

I now that everyone has gone the 15 point troop option or 45 points. But are they really better?

I think there are several reasons for this:

1. It's gone up in cost due to the more expensive pods, though its performance remains the same. So less bang for the buck.

2. It still requires a Synapse source to babysit it, meaning that it will limit the mobility of your army to a degree (and possibly its list-building as well).

3. The loss of the old Old Adversary. Before, you could give those devgants Prefered Enemy from a nearby flyrant which made them so much better. Now, you can't.

4. Other units like dakkafexes in spores have supplanted the devilgants due to their considerable price decrease, their much larger threat factor and the fact that they are a better overall TAC unit.

shadowfinder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.

235 points for 2 units that drop in the backfield.
1 of them throws 60 shots, 30 hit, 15 wound MEQs, meaning 5 MEQs dead.

Next round, they have no Synapse support (unless you're spending more points on making sure they do - relying on Flyrants doesn't always work) and have the worst (IMO) of all IBs.

For the cost of a Flyrant, they need to do much more than kill 5 MEQs the turn they drop.

Why would you drop a unit in with out the support it needs?

Two to 3 Flyrants are pretty good. There are ways to have other unit supporting it. as well. Of course those units would have to have there own part to do beside babysitting the gaunts.The point of the unit is to add a tool to your army. Since I have rarely seen squads of more then 5 MEQs that's pretty good killing a whole unit a turn.

A pretend list:
spore-field Fromation
3 drop spores
ripper swarm DP
2 Tyrnats
2 dakka fexs
20 gaunt squad with dev.
a Mawloc or a trygon prime
Salt the rest of the army to your taste.

This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.

Why is that better than a Dakkafex and a Bastion with comms relay? Very similar points, a Dakkafex is a bigger threat, doesn't *require* a Synapse babysitter (its IB is easier to deal with, especially if you're dropping it in)...

I'm not saying it's a dumb choice. I just don't see the point when you could either take another Flyrant or another dakkafex. They were taken in 5th because of the restrictive (compared to now) FOC and the lack of other real options.

Sorry was on vacation last week... well sorry if anyone is actually reading these haha. Will try to bang them out fairly fast before I forget most of them. Sorry for lack of photos.

game 4: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/2015/03/lvo-game-4-orks-and-necrons-with-demons.html

 jy2 wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.

They are 5 point less than last edition with more fire power and a better pod to ride in.

I have not seen them played by anyone lately and was wondering why to be honest. Is this old gem just forgotten or has it lost its luster?

I now that everyone has gone the 15 point troop option or 45 points. But are they really better?

I think there are several reasons for this:

1. It's gone up in cost due to the more expensive pods, though its performance remains the same. So less bang for the buck.

2. It still requires a Synapse source to babysit it, meaning that it will limit the mobility of your army to a degree (and possibly its list-building as well).

3. The loss of the old Old Adversary. Before, you could give those devgants Prefered Enemy from a nearby flyrant which made them so much better. Now, you can't.

4. Other units like dakkafexes in spores have supplanted the devilgants due to their considerable price decrease, their much larger threat factor and the fact that they are a better overall TAC unit.

1::As for cost value the unit went down in cost and their ride got better in everyway. As a unit the they improved. So more bang for the buck. I will admit it is only 5 points less but you have a much better unit then we had in 5th.

2nd:: You should have units over in the area that have synapse. As for mobility that would be dependent on where you place them.
They are not meant to be dropped and forgotten. That's what warriors or stealers are for.

3rd::The lost of old adversary hurt them a little for like the 3rd turn on. Turn two you rarely where in range to use it with them. so it is not that big of a lost. It was definitely a good buff for them though.

4th: Fex are really good and have a good threat range. The gaunts when dropped in cover though are a harder nut to crack open. With 20 wound vs 4. Lots of armies have answers to the fex in the heavy weapons the bring. Those weapons are wasted on gaunts. The also allow you to put a large road block // Tar pit where you need it. Something a fex can't do.

If my math is right 20 gaunts should kill a thunder fire canon when it comes in. Every army in the game has good targets for them.

For only 5 points more then the fex you have a flexible unit that is a threat just by weight of fire it can toss out. it also works well with a couple of fexs Podding in with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:
What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.

This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.

Why is that better than a Dakkafex and a Bastion with comms relay? Very similar points, a Dakkafex is a bigger threat, doesn't *require* a Synapse babysitter (its IB is easier to deal with, especially if you're dropping it in)...

I'm not saying it's a dumb choice. I just don't see the point when you could either take another Flyrant or another dakkafex. They were taken in 5th because of the restrictive (compared to now) FOC and the lack of other real options.

Well for one the bastion doesn't score can be one killed in one shot. It can't move and is not really a threat to anything. How do you compare a pod and gaunt to a fex and a bastion. I don't understand the comparison.

The Dakkafex is a very good unit. It's IB is a big issue in that it stops it from doing what it is meant to do. Shoot things. You don't drop a fex in to assault thing. A gaunt unit on the others side of the table if it fails IB it runs to your table edge. Which means it is able to regroup. Run in to synapse or have synapse move to it. It then gets to move and respond as normal. It is not all that bad really.

The dakka fex and tyrant both are good units. But they can't do something's. You limit your options to counter thing if you only go with two units. You will find armies that you lack the tools to deal with.
I feel it is a problem with list building in that people are so focused on the just a few unit that they miss the possibilities of other unit.

Game 5: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/2015/03/lvo-game-5-jy2s-tyranids.html

In game 4 why didnt the Ork Warboss just emergency disembark ?

I believe it was situated such that the vehicle was boxed in by other vehicles/models at its disembark point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking back, he basically hemmed it in with mucolids, spore mines and Flyrants. Great positioning

shadowfinder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.

This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.

Why is that better than a Dakkafex and a Bastion with comms relay? Very similar points, a Dakkafex is a bigger threat, doesn't *require* a Synapse babysitter (its IB is easier to deal with, especially if you're dropping it in)...

I'm not saying it's a dumb choice. I just don't see the point when you could either take another Flyrant or another dakkafex. They were taken in 5th because of the restrictive (compared to now) FOC and the lack of other real options.

Well for one the bastion doesn't score can be one killed in one shot. It can't move and is not really a threat to anything. How do you compare a pod and gaunt to a fex and a bastion. I don't understand the comparison.

Partially because you need a bastion for the comms relay - which you really, really want if you're doing a null deployment style list.
And iirc a claimed building can score... Plus Venom in a box is a pretty popular tactic.

The Dakkafex is a very good unit. It's IB is a big issue in that it stops it from doing what it is meant to do. Shoot things. You don't drop a fex in to assault thing. A gaunt unit on the others side of the table if it fails IB it runs to your table edge. Which means it is able to regroup. Run in to synapse or have synapse move to it. It then gets to move and respond as normal. It is not all that bad really.

Relying on LD6 regrouping is simply ... Well, it's not a good idea.
I've had one run from one side of the board to the other because I needed my Synapse (Flyrants) elsewhere. And no, while the primary purpose of a Dakkafex isn't to assault, it's not like it's bad at it.

The dakka fex and tyrant both are good units. But they can't do something's. You limit your options to counter thing if you only go with two units. You will find armies that you lack the tools to deal with.
I feel it is a problem with list building in that people are so focused on the just a few unit that they miss the possibilities of other unit.

I haven't found an army I lack the tools to deal with that 20 gants would be able to deal with.
It seems like you've made your mind up and are taking offense at people who disagree - I've tested them (as has jy2 I'm sure). I'm not talking about this in a vacuum.

Claimed buildings absolutely score objectives.

Shadow's opinion is a valid concern that utilizing few units can magnify the weaknesses of those units; however the Flyrant can just do SO MUCH. It's really rather insane. The only thing it can't do well is score ground objectives, but that's what you have the rest of your army for.

Part of competitive list-building is making a list that makes life difficult for other armies but easy for you. Flyrants do that beautifully; some gaunts rarely do either of these things. Armies can shoot or assault or ignore them. Even when they're fearless it's not tough to kill a WS 3 t 3 av 6+ unit to the man

 jy2 wrote:
Yes, I will get to it eventually. It's just taking a while because I'm not very motivated by my performance there.

As for my opinion, you don't need to wait for my report. I can tell you now. The more flyrants you run, the more dominating your list is potentially. That is because most armies just aren't equipped to handle an overload of flyers, at least without resorting to list-tailoring. However, there is also the pitfall of certain armies with a very strong ground presence. Most likely, you will have problems with the Secondary missions (the Maelstrom missions) against these types of armies.

In short, a Pentyrant Tyranid army is a very strong build. However, it wasn't quite as dominating as I had expected. It really depends on the matchup (and as well as on a little luck). But I am still of the opinion that it is strong enough to win a major tournament.

Also I will add, if your opponent knows how to fight flyrants, they don't need to Taylor to play around their weaknesses. Plus you just can't take a bunch of flyrants and expect to win.

Currently, I think 5 is to much, and 3 is just right. I'm currently testing 4 when I need a break with eldar, but to mixed results, it's too soon to tell.

I also think the more a packet incorporates maelstrom, the worst flyrant spam becomes.

rigeld2 wrote:

shadowfinder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.

This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.

Why is that better than a Dakkafex and a Bastion with comms relay? Very similar points, a Dakkafex is a bigger threat, doesn't *require* a Synapse babysitter (its IB is easier to deal with, especially if you're dropping it in)...

I'm not saying it's a dumb choice. I just don't see the point when you could either take another Flyrant or another dakkafex. They were taken in 5th because of the restrictive (compared to now) FOC and the lack of other real options.

Well for one the bastion doesn't score can be one killed in one shot. It can't move and is not really a threat to anything. How do you compare a pod and gaunt to a fex and a bastion. I don't understand the comparison.

Partially because you need a bastion for the comms relay - which you really, really want if you're doing a null deployment style list.
And iirc a claimed building can score... Plus Venom in a box is a pretty popular tactic.

The Dakkafex is a very good unit. It's IB is a big issue in that it stops it from doing what it is meant to do. Shoot things. You don't drop a fex in to assault thing. A gaunt unit on the others side of the table if it fails IB it runs to your table edge. Which means it is able to regroup. Run in to synapse or have synapse move to it. It then gets to move and respond as normal. It is not all that bad really.

Relying on LD6 regrouping is simply ... Well, it's not a good idea.
I've had one run from one side of the board to the other because I needed my Synapse (Flyrants) elsewhere. And no, while the primary purpose of a Dakkafex isn't to assault, it's not like it's bad at it.

The dakka fex and tyrant both are good units. But they can't do something's. You limit your options to counter thing if you only go with two units. You will find armies that you lack the tools to deal with.
I feel it is a problem with list building in that people are so focused on the just a few unit that they miss the possibilities of other unit.

I haven't found an army I lack the tools to deal with that 20 gants would be able to deal with.
It seems like you've made your mind up and are taking offense at people who disagree - I've tested them (as has jy2 I'm sure). I'm not talking about this in a vacuum.

1st I am not upset or taking offense at what people are saying.
I respect your and JY2 thoughts on units and their use's, but that don't make me have to agree with everything being said. As for testing I have too. I have had some good results with it and other games its been worthless.
That's why I asked about this unit to get a feel for it from people that play tournaments more then me.

I personally don't play with buildings so thanks for the rule info on that. Just to be clear it scores as long as you control it( have someone inside it.). If the opponent goes inside he control's it then. So does it score for him then if he is in control?

As for the com's relay being a must have for a Null deployment I will have to disagree. It is nice but not a must have. I know I am in the minority on this but I am more then happy with a 3+.I played all of 5th with a 3 and did very well. Back then you could get a 2+ only with the Swarmlord added. It wasn't worth it then and now it's not worth it. As for the reroll it is nice but I have a nasty habit or rolling 1and 2 for the reroll as well.YMWV
I agree that the tyrant is good, very good. I in the camp that 2 maybe 3 is the way to go. I have seen JY2's 5 tyrant list and while I feel it is powerful. I feel it is to unbalanced in regards to taking objectives. it will struggle terribly if it loses two or three tyrant's.
I have played vs. that list locally and have found a null list gives it some problems as does trapdoor spider list. I will admit my opponent is not as well versed in the game as JY2. But I have played it a few times now so I am not to worried about it. At lest not with other Tyranids.

I would never count on LD 6 roll's in a game.

It is true that gaunts are easy to kill and I am not saying they are the best choice ever. They are a option that can fit in a list well if you have a plan for their use. Sometimes it is good t have a unit fr your opponent to focus on beside another fex. I would rather some ne shot gaunts then my Flyrants or dakka fex.

Sorry I am rambling.

To me taking the best unit in a army and using only that is extremely boring. It shows to me a lack of creativity, sometimes. I love when someone takes a unit that is fair or only good and makes them amazing. That shows more tactical expertise then just take the top two unit in the army book spam them and your good. This is my problem with most elder player the spam serpents and wraithknight for the most part. I don't fear serpent spam any more. I know what it is going to do and know it can be a up hill battle. I really fear the FootDar players as they are usually very good and I am not as comfortable playing vs the units they bring. sorry lol

OrdoSean wrote:
Game 5: http://vectdoes.blogspot.com/2015/03/lvo-game-5-jy2s-tyranids.html

Thanks for the game, Sean.

So here are my thoughts on the game:


Jy2's Post-Game Analysis




@shadowfinder

If you like the devilgants in a spore, then give it a try. They just aren't as popular as before, but that doesn't mean that they aren't good. They can still kill infantry (though they used to do it better with Prefered Enemy) and they act as a good ObSec distraction unit (in a normal CAD). However, the shift in the meta back to mech means that they aren't as effective as they used to be because infantry on the ground, while still around, isn't as prevalent as they used to be. Also, now they've got more competition as once expensive monsters such as dakkafexes, tyrannofexes and the mawloc (not to mention the flyrant) have gone down in price considerably. There are just more choices for the player currently.

So if you run them, let us know how it goes. Maybe your playtesting will convince some of us to give them a try again.

Was wondering what you all thought of this List.
I am thinking of making this my ITC tournament list but wanted some thoughts on it.

+++ Null Drop List 1850 (1845pts) +++

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]

Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]

Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

Hive Tyrant [Fighter Ace, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

+ Troops +

Ripper Swarm Brood
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]

Ripper Swarm Brood
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]

+ Fast Attack +

Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]

Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]

Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]

+ Heavy Support +

Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]

Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]

Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Formation Detachment) ++

++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Hive Fleet Detachement) ++

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]

+ Troops +

Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]

Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]

Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]

+ Heavy Support +

Biovore Brood [Biovore]

Biovore Brood [Biovore]

Tyrannofex [Acid Spray, Electroshock Grubs]