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To me the only real fix that the Possesed needed was to roll there ability before Deployment, then you could know what they could do.
Saying that; there is a lot they could do with them that would make them 20% Cooler or just 20% Better.

Screw the rules...I cant wait to see the models hehehe. That is what will get me to build the army!!

WangoFett wrote:

Trevak Dal wrote:
Having to accept all challenges

Seems to fit most of the named chaos IC's, but as a blanket rule I am not happy about it as we can no longer throw a chump champion at the challenger while our IC goes to town on his squad.

And yet, those Fantasy WoC players who have the exact same rule as the one that CSM's are said to be getting, somehow manage to be one of the most competitive armies out there...

Does the new BRB come right out and state that IC's must ALWAYS offer/accept challenges before your regular unit champy can?!

soo from what i read i dont quite understand are daemon princes HQ or heavy support? cuz id love to have 2 sorceror lords and 3 daemon princes!

Overlord Zerrtin wrote:soo from what i read i dont quite understand are daemon princes HQ or heavy support? cuz id love to have 2 sorceror lords and 3 daemon princes!

They're HS in a Chaos Daemons army, and HQ in CSM. We don't know where they'll go yet.

Experiment 626 wrote:

WangoFett wrote:

Trevak Dal wrote:
Having to accept all challenges

Seems to fit most of the named chaos IC's, but as a blanket rule I am not happy about it as we can no longer throw a chump champion at the challenger while our IC goes to town on his squad.

And yet, those Fantasy WoC players who have the exact same rule as the one that CSM's are said to be getting, somehow manage to be one of the most competitive armies out there...

Does the new BRB come right out and state that IC's must ALWAYS offer/accept challenges before your regular unit champy can?!

Because they have several easy builds

1: Great Weapons and Khorne Marks on Marauders (So cheap it's actually a crutch at this point)

2: Exploitable manner in which to give a 4++ ward save on chosen, alongside other bonus

3: An alter that everyone takes to grant more eye of the god bonus' on a unit.

4: Hellcannon, point and fire.

Essentially, it has Phil Kelly's bad internal pricing for units. Though I give props for those who use throgg and monster builds and avoid one to two marauder khorne groups.

No kidding, does the new CSM codex include WFB-like chosen along with warshrines so we can have units running around with 3+ invuls? Might as well make it even more like fantasy.

My predictions, and i hope these fall short of the mark.

New units will be underpriced for what they do to motivate players to flock to the new models and boost GW sales.

Really popular units will get the nerf with some more than others.

Lots of people will get upset because of the changes and lots of powergamers will figure out a way to tailor the dex to make some brutal lists. They will rush out and buy the necessary models to be able to feild said list and will then lord over everyone at their FLGS with their unpainted grey plastic armies of doom. They will then justify not painting their armies for a number of reasons which will include the real reason. The fact that they are planning on selling the army as soon as a new codex with more broken combos comes out and want to have the highest resale value possible. Rinse and repeat.

I hope the nerf bat does not invalidate Nurgle as a legitimate list since i have invested the last six years collecting and converting as i go. If they get overpowered i will be forced to dumb my lists down some so that they are more evenly matched to those my fellow gamers feild. Either way i am really hoping for fun new rules and looking forward to some of the new units, especially the demon engine. If these things come in a fast attack option i will be overjoyed and likewise i will be stoked if i can give my cult termis Feel no pain with the appropriate mark.

sennacherib wrote:My predictions, and i hope these fall short of the mark.

New units will be underpriced for what they do to motivate players to flock to the new models and boost GW sales.

Really popular units will get the nerf with some more than others.

Lots of people will get upset because of the changes and lots of powergamers will figure out a way to tailor the dex to make some brutal lists. They will rush out and buy the necessary models to be able to feild said list and will then lord over everyone at their FLGS with their unpainted grey plastic armies of doom. They will then justify not painting their armies for a number of reasons which will include the real reason. The fact that they are planning on selling the army as soon as a new codex with more broken combos comes out and want to have the highest resale value possible. Rinse and repeat.

I hope the nerf bat does not invalidate Nurgle as a legitimate list since i have invested the last six years collecting and converting as i go. If they get overpowered i will be forced to dumb my lists down some so that they are more evenly matched to those my fellow gamers feild. Either way i am really hoping for fun new rules and looking forward to some of the new units, especially the demon engine. If these things come in a fast attack option i will be overjoyed and likewise i will be stoked if i can give my cult termis Feel no pain with the appropriate mark.

Bitter but true, so true.

You just described GW's marketing model.

aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.

Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?

aka_mythos wrote:While "Legions" aren't formally written up, I think its fairly obvious that the new units were produced with atleast informally representing the Legions in mind... that's better than nothing, ie right now.

They should use that to advertise it in the next White Dwarf. Get ready for Codex: Chaos Space Marines - better than nothing!

WangoFett wrote:

Trevak Dal wrote:
Having to accept all challenges

Seems to fit most of the named chaos IC's, but as a blanket rule I am not happy about it as we can no longer throw a chump champion at the challenger while our IC goes to town on his squad.

I dont ever deny challenges even now.

But I think you're misunderstanding the rule. If you, WangoFett, have a unit in combat with a champion and an IC, and that unit gets challenged... Mind, they dont choose who in the unit they challenge, they just call out the challenge, and you choose who accepts/denies... If you, WangoFett, accept the challenge with your champion, then you have met the criteria of accepting all challenges. You did not deny the challenge with your IC, you just accepted with a different character. I dont think the rule is meant that if you have an IC and a champion that the champion cant accept the challenge, just that you can never deny a challenge

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.

Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?

I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.

Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.

To represent Chaos Renegade GW must consider other distinctions, they do not necessarily have refuge in the Eye of Terror, and they do not nesseccarily have a full grasp or understanding of chaos. This should push them into more of a portrayle as a piratical group of marines, with minimal cult marines and god worship. They'd have marks but not neccessarily the mutations or daemon engines that come with exposure ot the warp and comingling with the chaos legions. They'd attempt to assert influence over lesser chaos groups like cultists and traitor guard... While their association with Chaos Legions might solely be in the form of a trade relationship, where the Renegades provide a steady stream of certain types of supplies and materiales into the Eye of Terror in exchange for other equipment. Where I think Chaos Renegade would be most appropriate would be some form of mini-dex allies list, like what's rumored for the Kroot. Where they only have one or two units per FOC to select from... I think emphasizing the piratical aspect would give them the most distinction while being most representative of their modus operandi. They'd be Chaos Marines, with loyalist leadership, with bolter or bolt pistol/ccw instead of both and they should have some sort of rule representing their specialization on ship to ship actions: in to the fray reroll to hit when shooting at enemies within 6" or something... with some weapon options from both loyalists and chaos books.

That's just an example of the type of consideration GW should give renegades but really haven't. To GW there is no difference between Renegades and the Black Legion, fluffwise we know better. Just as much as that is a travisty to the concept of Renegades, so is representing them as spikier loyalists. So you do them as much disservice.

I think GW intends for you to build the armies that way and have fun with new rules you come up with, Granted you can never really field the army at tournements but if you're playing at a tourny you shouldn't really be too focused on fluff that day anyway.

To sum my point up. At home or even at a FLGS play for fun and make up your own renegade rules. At a tourny play with a more firm adherence to the codex. Would renegades make it that far fluff wise against groups dedicated to cushing all resistance anyway?

Phragonist wrote:

WangoFett wrote:

Trevak Dal wrote:
Having to accept all challenges

Seems to fit most of the named chaos IC's, but as a blanket rule I am not happy about it as we can no longer throw a chump champion at the challenger while our IC goes to town on his squad.

I dont ever deny challenges even now.

But I think you're misunderstanding the rule. If you, WangoFett, have a unit in combat with a champion and an IC, and that unit gets challenged... Mind, they dont choose who in the unit they challenge, they just call out the challenge, and you choose who accepts/denies... If you, WangoFett, accept the challenge with your champion, then you have met the criteria of accepting all challenges. You did not deny the challenge with your IC, you just accepted with a different character. I dont think the rule is meant that if you have an IC and a champion that the champion cant accept the challenge, just that you can never deny a challenge

Basically you have to take an aspiring champion if you want to protect your IC from silly challenges. Annoying.

That's the same as the current state of affairs. The only difference is you can't have your IC sit the whole thing out.

Phragonist wrote:
But I think you're misunderstanding the rule... ...If you, WangoFett, accept the challenge with your champion, then you have met the criteria of accepting all challenges.

Ah ok that's fine then. I thought the rule would force CSM IC's to accept challenges over any aspiring champion.

aka_mythos wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.

Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?

I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.

Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.

Why the hell would renegades have all pre-Heresy equipment? In particular why would they have combi-bolters on the terminators and vehicles? Storm bolters are plentiful enough to pintle mount them on every single tank in the Imperium. And bolter weapons are apparently rugged enough that many of them are holy relics passed down through chapters for generations. I don't see how a renegade chapter would all of a sudden run out of storm bolters.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.

Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?

I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.

Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.

Why the hell would renegades have all pre-Heresy equipment? In particular why would they have combi-bolters on the terminators and vehicles? Storm bolters are plentiful enough to pintle mount them on every single tank in the Imperium. And bolter weapons are apparently rugged enough that many of them are holy relics passed down through chapters for generations. I don't see how a renegade chapter would all of a sudden run out of storm bolters.

Yea, only the divine light of the Emperor is powerful enough to handle the recoil from firing a stormbolter, be it pintle mounted or handheld. Without his holy assistance, all of the uncounted millions of these weapons would immediately cease to function. The Inquisition knows of this, and a common test to find if a SM chapter has turned from the light is to simply have them demonstrate their stormbolters. The machine spirits of these devices do not lie, and know heresy more firmly than the vaunted paranoid herophobe Commissar Fuklaw.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I don't see how a renegade chapter would all of a sudden run out of storm bolters.

And lose all their Razorbacks.

I just sorta skipped to the end and I didn't see it in the first post, but any idea who is writing this codex?

Some gentleman somewhere said Phil but I can't find it. Sorry

Phil Ward Cruddace.

Why do people rant about CSM or "Renegades SM" not having Stormbolters?...

I like Twin Bolters better anyday ot the week, a reroll and you still can fire 2 shots while in the 12", wich is the predilection range for CSM...

They can keep theyre run down junk, i much prefere to have real, new and exciting chaos weapons, not some Copy-Paste-evil-looking stuff...

Damn, some of that stuff is pretty awesome sounding. Typhus with Zombies? Hell yes!

But damn it's getting way too expensive to play this game.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.

Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?

I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.

Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.

Why the hell would renegades have all pre-Heresy equipment? In particular why would they have combi-bolters on the terminators and vehicles? Storm bolters are plentiful enough to pintle mount them on every single tank in the Imperium. And bolter weapons are apparently rugged enough that many of them are holy relics passed down through chapters for generations. I don't see how a renegade chapter would all of a sudden run out of storm bolters.

Well my explanation was in the following paragraph you chose to omit to make your point. As I said:

aka_mythos wrote:...While their association with Chaos Legions might solely be in the form of a trade relationship, where the Renegades provide a steady stream of certain types of supplies and materiales into the Eye of Terror in exchange for other equipment.

Chaos flew into the eye of terror with 50% of the mechanicum and all the factory ships that supported the great crusade... irs easy to imagine they can turn out combi-weapons. Combi-bolters are an example of the sort of thing Renegades might want, if for no other reason than to have weapon commonality with their closest allies, it's a common enough occurrence in real life. You might even argue that stormbolters being a piece of fine-tuned machinery simple operates comparably to a combi-bolter when not well maintained.

aka_mythos wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:If its a failure, its only because you want A) something gimmicky with a side of cheese to win, or B) you want something like legions which is arguably difficult to fit in a single book alongside renegades.

Renegades shouldn't be in the Chaos codex. They should just let the loyalist codex ally with daemons. If IG can do it why not SM?

I think renegades are more than just loyalists with extra spikes. I just don't think GW's ever thought through what Renegade space marines are and how they're distinguished from the Chaos Legions and rogue legionaries.

Renegades are former loyalists, and at an intermediate step towards corruption than the chaos legions... but the question is how far along their path to corruption are they?-If you want to represent renegade who just a day ago were loyalists, then yes a loyalist codex is the best way to represent them. That though only covers a relatively narrow view of renegades, while fluff shows even by the end of a renegade chapters first campaign they've started incorporating more attributes more in common with the Chaos Space Marines of the legions. I think you could only ever justify rules Renegades from the vantage of half way towards true chaos and further along.

Why the hell would renegades have all pre-Heresy equipment? In particular why would they have combi-bolters on the terminators and vehicles? Storm bolters are plentiful enough to pintle mount them on every single tank in the Imperium. And bolter weapons are apparently rugged enough that many of them are holy relics passed down through chapters for generations. I don't see how a renegade chapter would all of a sudden run out of storm bolters.

Well my explanation was in the following paragraph you chose to omit to make your point. As I said:

aka_mythos wrote:... ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

So evidently Chaos has the industrial infrastructure to fully outfit every single renegade chapter with pre-heresy combi weaponry, but all their Rhino-based vehicles use the modern MkIIC chassis salvaged from captured loyalist sources? Makes sense.

I don't think anyone who resorts to that sort of puerile posting is really all that worth listening to...

Abadabadoobadon wrote:So evidently Chaos has the industrial infrastructure to fully outfit every single renegade chapter with pre-heresy combi weaponry, but all their Rhino-based vehicles use the modern MkIIC chassis salvaged from captured loyalist sources? Makes sense.

I didn't write it.. your argument is also diversionary.

I've been insistent that the notion of representing Chaos Renegades is only worthwhile when they've been down the path to corruption for sometime... those just starting I admitted should just use loyalist rules. A loyalist set of rules might only be representative through the first campaign of a renegade chapter, to that end the persistent threat of Renegades such as the Red Corsairs in one where they've likely had more interactions with the Legions.

Back to infrastructure, if the fluff GW wrote about what Chaos fled into the eye of terror with is true, then yes they should have the infrastructure to both equip all renegade legions and themselves with Rhinos and combi-weapons. Why chaos marines simply salvage and use MKIIc rhinos can be for a any combonation of reasons... A) maybe the Rhinos the Imperium makes are simply better, having benefitted from thousands upon thousand of years of slow grinding R&D... B)the dark mechanicum is either unwilling or (C) to demanding in payment to justify a legion having them build them Rhinos.

Next consider even if a whole intact chapter went renegade they'd need no more than 200 combi-bolters to fully equip the appropriate units and their rhinos.

Then there is still my representational argument... that a poorly maintained storm bolter simply function comparably to a combi-bolter.

These are rational explanations. If the fluff says something, you can either rationalize or your stuck complaining that your fictional world is too fictional and imperfect because it doesn't follow you're fixed notion of what it should be.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't think anyone who resorts to that sort of puerile posting is really all that worth listening to...

Abadabadoobadon wrote:So evidently Chaos has the industrial infrastructure to fully outfit every single renegade chapter with pre-heresy combi weaponry, but all their Rhino-based vehicles use the modern MkIIC chassis salvaged from captured loyalist sources? Makes sense.

I didn't write it.. your argument is also diversionary.

I've been insistent that the notion of representing Chaos Renegades is only worthwhile when they've been down the path to corruption for sometime... those just starting I admitted should just use loyalist rules. A loyalist set of rules might only be representative through the first campaign of a renegade chapter, to that end the persistent threat of Renegades such as the Red Corsairs in one where they've likely had more interactions with the Legions.

Back to infrastructure, if the fluff GW wrote about what Chaos fled into the eye of terror with is true, then yes they should have the infrastructure to both equip all renegade legions and themselves with Rhinos and combi-weapons. Why chaos marines simply salvage and use MKIIc rhinos can be for a any combonation of reasons... A) maybe the Rhinos the Imperium makes are simply better, having benefitted from thousands upon thousand of years of slow grinding R&D... B)the dark mechanicum is either unwilling or (C) to demanding in payment to justify a legion having them build them Rhinos.

Next consider even if a whole intact chapter went renegade they'd need no more than 200 combi-bolters to fully equip the appropriate units and their rhinos.

Then there is still my representational argument... that a poorly maintained storm bolter simply function comparably to a combi-bolter.

These are rational explanations. If the fluff says something, you can either rationalize or your stuck complaining that your fictional world is too fictional and imperfect because it doesn't follow you're fixed notion of what it should be.

Actually, the correct answer is "The Chaos codex isn't really about renegades. All the equipment is pre-heresy legion equipment. GW just threw the renegades in as an excuse for why the codex is so piss poor at representing the legions. Also Chaos Rhinos are MkIIC because GW's business strategy is to move as many SM models as possible so they sell you the same kit except with spikes."

Abadabadoobadon wrote:Actually, the correct answer is "The Chaos codex isn't really about renegades. All the equipment is pre-heresy legion equipment. GW just threw the renegades in as an excuse for why the codex is so piss poor at representing the legions. Also Chaos Rhinos are MkIIC because GW's business strategy is to move as many SM models as possible so they sell you the same kit except with spikes."

Before you were arguing the explanation not the business decision of GW. This discussion started because I disagreed with your assertion that Renegades should equal using Loyalist codices... Which I've made clear I think is just as wrong as lumping them into the Chaos SM codex.

Renegades weren't just thrown in as excuse, their inclusion was simply to reinforce the notion of all units being available in allowing the mixed composition of cults that for all intents and purpose only rarely cooperate in cult-centric legions.

Legions will never be represented because that notion generally requires excluding unit choices from being allowed... That means making some kits less likely to be purchased which goes against GW policy and strategy. It'd be nice if they did, but unlikely.