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Captyn_Bob wrote:
And chaos is a faction anyway right?

Playing your faction as chaos denies you objective secured because it is too generic.

 Rydria wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
And chaos is a faction anyway right?

Playing your faction as chaos denies you objective secured because it is too generic.

Can you please explain why? There's nothing I've seen in the rulebook, index, or FAQs to support this.

Or is this an assumption / rumour about the contents of Chapter Approved?

(This is for both Chaos as a keyword and the individual gods as keywords)

It's per GW Playtesters, who run major events.

GW themselves have not said ANYTHING of the sort, but if you attend these events the organizers, who playtesters 8th, deny you the mentioned abilities.

Moving forward, anyway.

New errata confirms Be'lakor can use the entire Dark Hereticus power pool. Level up!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

Also Daemon cheese loophole has been closed up by FAQing the points and smite changes directly to the Index.

It's per the rules set out in the codex. In order for a CSM detatchment to be a CSM battleforged detatchment, all units must share a Legion keyword. Daemons don't have the keyword, so if they are included, the detatchment doesn't get the Despoilers of the Galaxy ability. It's on page 156.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's per GW Playtesters, who run major events.

GW themselves have not said ANYTHING of the sort, but if you attend these events the organizers, who playtesters 8th, deny you the mentioned abilities.

Moving forward, anyway.

Okay, fair enough. So it's not actually against the rules as they stand at the moment. That's what I was asking.

Aelyn wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's per GW Playtesters, who run major events.

GW themselves have not said ANYTHING of the sort, but if you attend these events the organizers, who playtesters 8th, deny you the mentioned abilities.

Moving forward, anyway.

Okay, fair enough. So it's not actually against the rules as they stand at the moment. That's what I was asking.

See the above comment. Page 156 of the codex.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's per GW Playtesters, who run major events.

GW themselves have not said ANYTHING of the sort, but if you attend these events the organizers, who playtesters 8th, deny you the mentioned abilities.

Moving forward, anyway.

Okay, fair enough. So it's not actually against the rules as they stand at the moment. That's what I was asking.

See the above comment. Page 156 of the codex.

I wasn't asking about the new codex, I was checking my Death Guard / Nurgle daemon army from Index: Chaos was legal.

GW is gonna put out an exhaustive list of what does and does not count, so hopefully that'll clear up any issues (though I'm sure it will also make a lot of people upset).

Tbh, at this point I see one of the best and most fun daemons list as
Changeling
Malefulic lords
Durable/cheap troops
Maybe Magnus because of how good he is 3+ invul re-roll 1s, 38inch move k thx
A ton of points in reserve
This way the opponent can't shoot down your big dudes turn one and two, and it takes actual skill to plan out what to summon where and counting points. And if you get charged turn one because you're facing one of those armies, you can summon the best dudes to deal with them. I like it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gonna take this sick list into a casual 1000 random pair tournament:
ML x2
10 brims x3
ML x3
10 brims
3 Nurglings x2

9 cp, 610 in reserve for a scabby (if I want to troll someone :p) and obviously actually good things

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
New FAQ puts icons at 15 pts. Worth taking at all?

Oh... interesting... however with the price drops to models it still may be better to take 2 more dudes instead.

15 is a big drop.
The cool thing about the icons is that if even just one guy drops, then you have a 1/6 chance of getting d3 more. This means, assuming they take casualties every round, then after 6 rounds, they will proc and gain ~14 points back.
One of the things that makes this slightly better is that the unit does not suffer any casualties from battle shock when it pops. So if you are out of command points, and roll that 1 - and would be losing 2-3 guys then you won't lose any.
Is it still worth 15 points? I don't know. As the plague bearers got a discount, I'll try some at 15 for my next few games and see how they do.

Edit : The real bang here is the cost decrease for plague drones and bloodcrushers. Those units get over 40 points in return when the banner procs, making it a good investment.
Since this change is in index:chaos it applies across the board.

Btw, just so I'm not missing anything, do we have anything except icons to make charges easier?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Btw, just so I'm not missing anything, do we have anything except icons to make charges easier?

I think you mean instruments, right?

Command die for rerolls.

Fun fact: with an Instrument of Chaos and a command die re-roll for the charge re-roll, we have a 65.96% chance of making a charge straight out of summoning. Not bad odds, but it still makes summoning 20+ Bloodletters for that big charge a risky prospect, because they'll get blown to bits if they fail the charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another topic, I noticed Be'Lakor now has access to the very powerful CSM Hereticus discipline, but he... can't cast any of the good powers on himself as he lacks the appropriate keyword? Hoping GW FAQs this.

Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors

I got:

1x Fateweaver
1x Daemon Prince
1x Belakor
1x Changeling
30 x Pink
20 x Blue
20 x Brimstone
6x Flamers
5x Scarab Occult Terminators
3x Oblits
3x Mutilators

Looking at the recent changes for Horrors (Pink cost decrease, Brimstone increase, Icon decrease), i wonder if it is really worth to field a
10x Pink Horror squad for D3 Smite.
Most of the time it doesnt go off anyway and if you want to have the chance for D3 Smite for more than 1 turn, you would have to add some Brimstones to a Pink Horror Squad. Like 10x Pink, 10x Brimstone.
The problem imo is that the Pink Horrors, despite the fact that the squad also includes 10x Brimstones, most likely will die to morale because the Brimstones will die.
So no 10x Pink Horrors, no D3 smite.
So why field Pinks anyway? You wont have D3 Smite for long and the chance of getting D6 slain Pink horror back (via Icon) is really
low. Most of the time it also doesnt go off. Additionally you would still have to roll high enough to get back on 10 for D3 smite.
The point decrease does not match the smite nerf. Imo anybody will just keep fielding mass brimstones, just because of the extreme low cost, though increased.

I also got a Fateweaver.
Okay, he can smite and deny really well. and he is good in CC, but only if he is not crippled.
The Tzeentch disclipnes are really weak, there is not much reason to use them.
So is it worth playing a costly Fateweaver? Because ATM i feel he is pretty weak, Lascannons just melt him down.
What do you think?

Belakor is a beast, total worth any Point.
Nice Combo with Occult Terminators, Oblits and Mutilators via Prescience & Warptime (only if it goes off).

Changeling is just supergood.

Flamers are decent, but have to be handled very careful.


So, all in all i think Pink Horrors are still weak, their cost is still too high. Smite nerf is also too big, because for a Horror squad it can get easily denied.
Fateweaver not worth playing at the moment, needs buff through better psychic powers or whatever. Hes just too weak atm.

Can you give me some tactical advice looking at the models i have got?
What do you think about my statement on the horrors?

Everybody else is also talking about "Malefic Lords".
Is it a FW thing? Where to find their profiles? As far as i could see and read in this threat, there are no models available for them, am i correct?

DortmundOutpost wrote:
Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors...

You hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I don't think Pink Horrors are worth their points, compared to the Brimstones (hell, even Blues). Adding up your points, it looks like even playing everything you've got (not ideal obviously) you're still a bit short of 2K.

Regarding Malefic Lords, the profile must be referring to the "Renegade Rogue Psykers," shown here: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Renegade-Rogue-Psykers
As such, you've got some flexibility on what models you want to use for this entry. Personally, I'm using the AoS Kairic Acolytes, because they look suitably Tzeetchy/Wizardy enough to match the general aesthetic.
To sum up the unit profile, they're very cheap (30 points), have a 4+ invul and can Smite without any disadvantage. As HQs, you can also spam them in Supreme Command detachments. Furthermore, they're not associated with any chaos god, so they're ideal for summoning any daemon unit.

 magodedisco wrote:

DortmundOutpost wrote:
Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors...

You hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I don't think Pink Horrors are worth their points, compared to the Brimstones (hell, even Blues). Adding up your points, it looks like even playing everything you've got (not ideal obviously) you're still a bit short of 2K.

Regarding Malefic Lords, the profile must be referring to the "Renegade Rogue Psykers," shown here: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Renegade-Rogue-Psykers
As such, you've got some flexibility on what models you want to use for this entry. Personally, I'm using the AoS Kairic Acolytes, because they look suitably Tzeetchy/Wizardy enough to match the general aesthetic.
To sum up the unit profile, they're very cheap (30 points), have a 4+ invul and can Smite without any disadvantage. As HQs, you can also spam them in Supreme Command detachments. Furthermore, they're not associated with any chaos god, so they're ideal for summoning any daemon unit.

Wow this entire time I thought everyone was referring to Daemon Prince Malefic Talons as Malefic Lords! (New Tzeentch player as well).

Do these lords have any CC abilities? Fly? etc or just for Smite?

spaceclown wrote:

 magodedisco wrote:

DortmundOutpost wrote:
Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors...

You hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I don't think Pink Horrors are worth their points, compared to the Brimstones (hell, even Blues). Adding up your points, it looks like even playing everything you've got (not ideal obviously) you're still a bit short of 2K.

Regarding Malefic Lords, the profile must be referring to the "Renegade Rogue Psykers," shown here: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Renegade-Rogue-Psykers
As such, you've got some flexibility on what models you want to use for this entry. Personally, I'm using the AoS Kairic Acolytes, because they look suitably Tzeetchy/Wizardy enough to match the general aesthetic.
To sum up the unit profile, they're very cheap (30 points), have a 4+ invul and can Smite without any disadvantage. As HQs, you can also spam them in Supreme Command detachments. Furthermore, they're not associated with any chaos god, so they're ideal for summoning any daemon unit.

Wow this entire time I thought everyone was referring to Daemon Prince Malefic Talons as Malefic Lords! (New Tzeentch player as well).

Do these lords have any CC abilities? Fly? etc or just for Smite?

Not innately, no, Malefic Lords are only 30 points apiece. However, they have a special rule that says if they ever suffer a Perils of the Warp and survive, they basically Hulk-out and change their Weapon Skill to 2+, their Strength to 8, Attacks to...4?, and their bare hands upgrade to -2 AP and 2 damage. It's niche, but a nice little bonus on an already cheap and super efficient model.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
New FAQ puts icons at 15 pts. Worth taking at all?

Oh... interesting... however with the price drops to models it still may be better to take 2 more dudes instead.

15 is a big drop.
The cool thing about the icons is that if even just one guy drops, then you have a 1/6 chance of getting d3 more. This means, assuming they take casualties every round, then after 6 rounds, they will proc and gain ~14 points back.
One of the things that makes this slightly better is that the unit does not suffer any casualties from battle shock when it pops. So if you are out of command points, and roll that 1 - and would be losing 2-3 guys then you won't lose any.
Is it still worth 15 points? I don't know. As the plague bearers got a discount, I'll try some at 15 for my next few games and see how they do.

Edit : The real bang here is the cost decrease for plague drones and bloodcrushers. Those units get over 40 points in return when the banner procs, making it a good investment.
Since this change is in index:chaos it applies across the board.

Where are you seeing the price changes for drones and bloodcrushers? Cause I really must be blind im not seeing it in the index update.

Edit: never mind. I just got what you were saying.

Sokhar wrote:

Not innately, no, Malefic Lords are only 30 points apiece. However, they have a special rule that says if they ever suffer a Perils of the Warp and survive, they basically Hulk-out and change their Weapon Skill to 2+, their Strength to 8, Attacks to...4?, and their bare hands upgrade to -2 AP and 2 damage. It's niche, but a nice little bonus on an already cheap and super efficient model.

oh okay so essentially 3 ML for the cost of 1 Herald on Disc. Meaning I should screen them with Brims.

In your opinion, would a foot slogging ML be > than Disc Heralds? If so, that frees up lots of points in my list

I always run one disc herald in every Tzeentch list. The speed is not to be underestimated with fly.

That being said, simply always add a supreme command of 5 Lords and an exalted flamer whenever possible. I include at least 5 in every list.

Holy hell, after all this talk about Malefic Lords, I'm seeing all the MW firepower they can dish out for only 150 points, all while hiding behind Brims.

This feels dirty and That Guy.

Invul wrote:
Holy hell, after all this talk about Malefic Lords, I'm seeing all the MW firepower they can dish out for only 150 points, all while hiding behind Brims.

This feels dirty and That Guy.

It's absolutely a tournament level strat. I'm taking 4 in my tournament list, but I've heard of people taking 5 or 6. They are actually that good

I thought summoning was completely dead.....this talk is encouraging! I might leave some command points aside for summoning now.

Aside from bloodletters and brims, what else is worthwhile? Can I summon an under strength unit? Lets say I leave 3 reinforcement points, can I summon a unit of one brimstone?

 magodedisco wrote:

DortmundOutpost wrote:
Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors...

You hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I don't think Pink Horrors are worth their points, compared to the Brimstones (hell, even Blues). Adding up your points, it looks like even playing everything you've got (not ideal obviously) you're still a bit short of 2K.

Regarding Malefic Lords, the profile must be referring to the "Renegade Rogue Psykers," shown here: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Renegade-Rogue-Psykers
As such, you've got some flexibility on what models you want to use for this entry. Personally, I'm using the AoS Kairic Acolytes, because they look suitably Tzeetchy/Wizardy enough to match the general aesthetic.
To sum up the unit profile, they're very cheap (30 points), have a 4+ invul and can Smite without any disadvantage. As HQs, you can also spam them in Supreme Command detachments. Furthermore, they're not associated with any chaos god, so they're ideal for summoning any daemon unit.

Aaaahhh finally....thank you for clarification .
So basically they are a cheap undivided chaos lord, to be played in a summoning list.

Well, over the last days ive been a lot in the tactica thread and it seems like, summoning lists are the only thing thats worth to play, though with lots of cheap HQs,
due to doubles and triples dealing 1/D3 dmg.
I think the mechanic is pretty bad designed, with all the range limitation and all risks it brings with it, but thats another topic.

Thank you for summing up the profile, what book does contain the "Renegade Rogue Psykers".
Is it like Malefic Lord/Renegade Psyker? I dont understand how and where/what book the unit is clearly determined.
I have the "FW: Imperial Armor - Index Forces of Chaos", but i cant find any renegades...

Renegades are in the FW Astra Militarum Index.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Renegades are in the FW Astra Militarum Index.

Arent they Chaos? Why are they in the FW: Astra Militarum Index?
And is there a reference to Malefic Lords? Because i have been told, the Lords profile is referring to the renegades...

Pls help me

They are traitor guard and use a lot of guard units so they got lumped into that book.
Maelific Lords are included there.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
They are traitor guard and use a lot of guard units so they got lumped into that book.
Maelific Lords are included there.

Thank you very much!

So what would you suggest for the proxy of Malefic Lord.

Some guy here used Prodos Warzone Miniatures (they look really cool), another guy used AOS Magister or AOS Kairic Acolytes.
Any other ideas?

I have a pretty hefty collection, so I'm dragging out every chaos sorceror, lesser champion, nurgle acolytes, the larger familiars.scratchbuild inquisimunda gangs.. turncoat imperial sanctioned.. anything really.