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2015/04/21 08:51:05
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Frozocrone wrote: If the WK is the same as before with it's weapons then it's 2 single Str. D shots, or Str D close combat, so a GC Knight.
I think I prefer the volume of S10 shots from Barbie to be honest...time and playtesting will tell the story though
Agreed - but not necessarily for twice the price.
A hail of S10 AP3 shots is actually a damn effective way to gut a wraithknight - although sticking Feel No Pain on them means that it's unlikely to drop a wraithknight in a single turn anymore.
My idea of an unbound Overlord Swarm may have taken a bit of a kick in the teeth.....
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
2015/04/21 14:12:03
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Frozocrone wrote: If the WK is the same as before with it's weapons then it's 2 single Str. D shots, or Str D close combat, so a GC Knight.
I think I prefer the volume of S10 shots from Barbie to be honest...time and playtesting will tell the story though
Agreed - but not necessarily for twice the price.
A hail of S10 AP3 shots is actually a damn effective way to gut a wraithknight - although sticking Feel No Pain on them means that it's unlikely to drop a wraithknight in a single turn anymore.
My idea of an unbound Overlord Swarm may have taken a bit of a kick in the teeth.....
2 Wraith Knights will easily kill a Barbie in shooting (44% they 6 him, 3.56 wounds per turn otherwise). Meanwhile Barbie will do 3.33 wounds to one Wraith Knight per turn of shooting assuming no cover. Statistically in 2 rounds of shooting, the WK's will 6 the Heirodule (89% chance). Now I understand that the WK is a LOW and therefore is theoretically limited in the number taken, but if I could take a WK at 55 Points more than its old cost vs a Barbie at its current cost, I would prefer a WK 100% of the time.
Basically for the cost of a Barbie you can get a WK + a Flyrant + 2 Mucolids which is far superior. For 1/2 the points the WK should be 1/2 as good, not better in CC and 70% as good in shooting.
2015/04/22 00:22:41
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
This at least gives me hope that Nids will have things like this adjusted to the appropriate power level in time. Sadly they just released the IA so no d weapons for TGC for some time but I bet there will be a new codex for Nids in 2016 given the crazy pace we're on
2015/04/22 07:24:19
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
That always kind of bugged me - I wish there was a 'bio-titan scale' scything talon that granted Strength D.
On the other hand, we definitely wouldn't be getting that many attacks at WS6, I6 and destroyer attacks too.
One of the biggest problems biotitans have has always been destroyer attacks, because (unlike a knight or titan, and like a guard superheavy) they have no way of stopping a hit reaching them - they just have to tank the hit on a relatively limited stock of wounds.
If I field the overlord swarm, I think I'm going to have to pack some void shield generators - a friend of mine has some capillary towers I can purloin. Fortunately, void shields are about the best protection from destroyer fire you can get as a single hit only ever collapses a single shield, no matter how powerful the hit was.
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
2015/04/22 12:39:32
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
We're discussing the Manufactorum Formation a bit on TTH. I haven't tried it (since digital-only formations have been banned in my region) but I'm about to. I'm not sure it can make it out of beer&pretzels land, but I'm kind of ok with that.
How would your best build look like at 1850-2000? I'm thinking about something like this:
So I have a question... what's our best way to kill the new Wraithknight? Obviously tarpitting it is also an option, but I am also curious as to if we have /any/ efficient means of killing the damn thing.
I'm not sure on the stats, but I think shooting wise outside of the Barbie discussed above an Exocrine is the best bet, whilst for melee a fairly decked out Skytyrant seems the best option despite ID being fairly nerfed against it? Obviously both have to hope for no 6s on hits against them of course, but at least the Skytyrant has a Swarm of Gargoyles to protect it on the way in. Anything else I'm missing?
2015/04/22 19:24:46
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
A barbed Heirodule in cover stands a good chance actually. And is twice the cost... So it's not that great. Basically just fly around it and pray. A Skytyrant with Reaper honestly could do well but will get murdered by Jetbikes.
2015/04/22 20:54:01
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jifel wrote: A barbed Heirodule in cover stands a good chance actually. And is twice the cost... So it's not that great. Basically just fly around it and pray. A Skytyrant with Reaper honestly could do well but will get murdered by Jetbikes.
Barbie's got a pretty good chance. If the WK isn't in cover, Barbie can do 3.33 wounds a turn to it. On the other hand in 2 rounds of shooting the Wraith Knight has a 44% chance of 6'ing Barbie.
Skytyrant doesn't do as well as you think. It needs 3 rounds of combat to take the WK down. In 3 rounds, the WK is going to 6 the Flyrant.
Psychic Powers and Tarpits. Make your game plan around not killing it and losing a walking MC ever other turn to it. It is an absurdly undercosted LOW, and Tyranids don't really have an effective answer to it.
2015/04/22 21:23:57
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jifel wrote: A barbed Heirodule in cover stands a good chance actually. And is twice the cost... So it's not that great. Basically just fly around it and pray. A Skytyrant with Reaper honestly could do well but will get murdered by Jetbikes.
Barbie's got a pretty good chance. If the WK isn't in cover, Barbie can do 3.33 wounds a turn to it. On the other hand in 2 rounds of shooting the Wraith Knight has a 44% chance of 6'ing Barbie.
Skytyrant doesn't do as well as you think. It needs 3 rounds of combat to take the WK down. In 3 rounds, the WK is going to 6 the Flyrant.
Psychic Powers and Tarpits. Make your game plan around not killing it and losing a walking MC ever other turn to it. It is an absurdly undercosted LOW, and Tyranids don't really have an effective answer to it.
The Barbed Hierodule is a decent counter, the problem is that he's not a Points efficient one. If we have one Barby, then they may have 2 Wraithknights... As to the Skytyrant, remember that his 6s will ignore FNP, as well as causing d3 wounds to the Wraithknight. So, let's say a Flyrant with OA and Reaper charges a WK... 6 attacks hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s is 4.66 hits. On a 5+ to wound with shred, he causes 2.59 wounds. Half of those are a 6 to wound, so ID (goes to d3 wounds, average 2), and then ignore FNP, for 2.59 wounds. The other half (5s to wounds) is 1.3 wounds, which after FNP goes to 0.86 wounds, for a total of 3.45 wounds. Multiply this by 5/6 (for the attacks going from 6 to 5 for round 2, and the average wounds are 6.33 including the first round. Note that this is a full health Wraithknight with two D Cannons, and isn't even including the Gargoyles impact on the combat. Since the Flyrant is Initiative 8, the Wraithknight will only have one chance to stomp before he is (on average) killed, and so there is a 1/3 chance that he kills the Flyrant before averages kill him. Even if that happens, he will be tarpitted for a while and likely low on wounds, maybe even enough for the poisoned 6+ gargoyles to finish him eventually.
So, I must say that the Skytyrant is our most points efficient way to KILL a Wraithknight. Tarpit wise it is clearly a ton of Gargoyles, but this is the next best thing, as long as you can kill the Jetbikes!
2015/04/22 21:40:28
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I fell in love with the Skytyrant recently. He is my answer to Grav and I agree about him having a good chance of taking on the Wraithknight. Just pray for no 6's on that stomp! I even bought another box of Gargoyles to buff the unit up to 30 of the buggers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/22 21:41:21
So after a few games of using the Superbeast (Fully kitted out melee flyrant, including ymgarl) I have to say...I like it. It's had a role in every army I've played against he's had a role. I like that he draws my opponents attention, and that my other three flyrants can go off to do what they need to do.
With new Wraithknights out there roaming about, hopefully he can do some good.
Frozocrone wrote: Just came back from Warhammer World for a little 1250 tournament with my friends. You should go if you ever get the chance
I came second out of eight but I could have got first! :O I forgot to move my Termagants last turn onto an Objective to claim an extra victory point (final score between top two was 20 VP to my 19, if it was tied then it would go to how many games you won, of which I won all mine and first lost two). Alas, here is how it went down.
Spoiler:
Game 1 - SM Minotaurs Opted to go second. Void Shield put in a shift against the Relic Whirlwind Scorpius, blocking it from hurting my Flyrant. My opponent had really bad rolls and it got worse once the Flyrants were airborne. Final score was 5-0 to the Nids.
Game 2 - Astra Militaru with Knight Again, opted to go second and started to regret it after seeing my models die. A few Las Cannon squads pierced shields very quickly and then Wyverns made short work of my Infantry. Knight slowly moved up, didn't do a lot of damage to Flyrants as they had the 2+ jink. Once the Flyrants were airborne things became easier, I was able to make enough space behind my opponents ADL to land and get a Psychic Scream off, giving me Linebreaker, StW and First Blood. This was the only game I lost my Flyrant, due to the Knight charging - it had 2 HP left but I could only do 1 HP with the D3 hits (rolled 1), then whiffed smash! Oy oy. Final score was 5-4 - I think I might have miscalculated my score but it's too late to do anything now.
Game 3 - Tau w/ Firebase Support Cadre I was very familiar against this list as my friend usually fields it. This time however, he had given it to a mutual friend who was learning the game. Again, opted to go second to mitigate shooting and the VSG again, pulled it's weight, completely taking one unit of Broadsides firepower. I rolled well for Psychic Powers and was able to get a Psychic Shriek off for First Blood which allowed me to concentrate on the Broadsides. Final score was 9-1 but could have been 10-0 - this was quite irritating as 1st place had gained no VP in this round so I would have clinched it had I remembered to move my models (and not have the TO tell me to hurry up ).
I quite liked the list and know how I would improve it to 1500. This is what I ran for 1250:
Congrats! Very well done. Interesting that they allowed dual-CAD, but as long as you are not running 5-flyrants, then dual-CAD is the way to go (for ObSec).
Callylove wrote: I am playing a 1000 points Escalation game versus Necrons the upcoming week, and I'm looking for some advice regarding what units to take. We will be playing Crusade and I am expecting a Decurion Detachment with a Destroyer Cult in it.
I am thinking of something in the lines of the following:
Flyrant
Flyrant
Malanthrope
DS Rippers
Mucolid
Living Artillery Node
Should I go with this or should I take out one Flyrant for something else? Or even the second Flyrant for some better firepower against 4+ and 4+ RP now as we know that they aren't very effective against that?
Keep the flyrant. More firepower = better. The LAN is alright, as the exocrine will keep those crons sticking in cover, just like his destroyers will keep your monsters in cover as well. Just make sure to focus down 1 unit at a time with your flyrants rather than to spread your firepower over various units.
I am playing a 1000 points Escalation game versus Necrons the upcoming week, and I'm looking for some advice regarding what units to take. We will be playing Crusade and I am expecting a Decurion Detachment with a Destroyer Cult in it.
I am thinking of something in the lines of the following:
Flyrant
Flyrant
Malanthrope
DS Rippers
Mucolid
Living Artillery Node
Should I go with this or should I take out one Flyrant for something else? Or even the second Flyrant for some better firepower against 4+ and 4+ RP now as we know that they aren't very effective against that?
Destroyer Cult is some rough stuff. It can ignore flyrant damage output all day long (3+/4++, 2 wounds each). The best answer is tarpits. Hormagants & Gargoyles Backed up by some malanthropes. If I were list tailoring, I would go that way. 2 x 20 Gargoyles. 2 x 20 Hormagants. 2 x Malanthrope. Shrikes to back them up with synapse. Give them BS's if you want to kill stuff. Maybe CC Flyrant (s). Once the tarpits are in place, the necrons are stalled except for the destroyer lord.
The other way to go is a Barbed Heirodule with a Malanthrope. So long as you keep Barbie in cover, he can kill the destroyers, and then deep strike rippers / Lictors onto objectives.
Just be aware that Necrons can clear out our Tyranid "tarpits". I call them "Flayed Ones".
I also wouldn't recommend the Barbed Hierodule + malanthrope at 1K. That's about 620-pts just for those 2 units! Sure, you have a better chance at shooting down those destroyers. However, you are also more likely to lose on objectives just because he's going to have a lot more units at 1K than you will with Barbie at 1K.
locarno24 wrote: That always kind of bugged me - I wish there was a 'bio-titan scale' scything talon that granted Strength D.
On the other hand, we definitely wouldn't be getting that many attacks at WS6, I6 and destroyer attacks too.
One of the biggest problems biotitans have has always been destroyer attacks, because (unlike a knight or titan, and like a guard superheavy) they have no way of stopping a hit reaching them - they just have to tank the hit on a relatively limited stock of wounds.
If I field the overlord swarm, I think I'm going to have to pack some void shield generators - a friend of mine has some capillary towers I can purloin. Fortunately, void shields are about the best protection from destroyer fire you can get as a single hit only ever collapses a single shield, no matter how powerful the hit was.
Well, at least our bio-titans have Lash Whips, meaning they will be striking at I6 or 7 as long as they are not assaulting through cover. There's a decent chance that they will kill an Imperial Knight on the turn they charge, though a WK or the D-thirster should be able to survive their attack to strike back (unless you factor in the 12 S10 shots before the charge).
For my wishlist, I'd settle for S: D bio-cannons. CC-attacks can remain the same.
N.I.B. wrote: We're discussing the Manufactorum Formation a bit on TTH. I haven't tried it (since digital-only formations have been banned in my region) but I'm about to. I'm not sure it can make it out of beer&pretzels land, but I'm kind of ok with that.
How would your best build look like at 1850-2000? I'm thinking about something like this:
I'd throw a malanthrope (or venomthrope in a bunker) somewhere in there to protect your units from the enemy alpha-strike.
Other than that, the list looks like it would be a lot of fun to play!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Benlisted wrote: So I have a question... what's our best way to kill the new Wraithknight? Obviously tarpitting it is also an option, but I am also curious as to if we have /any/ efficient means of killing the damn thing.
I'm not sure on the stats, but I think shooting wise outside of the Barbie discussed above an Exocrine is the best bet, whilst for melee a fairly decked out Skytyrant seems the best option despite ID being fairly nerfed against it? Obviously both have to hope for no 6s on hits against them of course, but at least the Skytyrant has a Swarm of Gargoyles to protect it on the way in. Anything else I'm missing?
While the WK will be a pain-in-the-ass, I have a feeling that he won't even be our biggest worry. In any case, as the other posters have already mentioned - Barbie and Skytyrant are 2 options we have. Another would be to just ignore it and run MSU Tyranids with Lictors everywhere and flyrants who really don't care that much. Honestly, I don't think the WK will be the main worry for our bugs. There are other, more dangerous units in the new Eldar codex.
rollawaythestone wrote: I fell in love with the Skytyrant recently. He is my answer to Grav and I agree about him having a good chance of taking on the Wraithknight. Just pray for no 6's on that stomp! I even bought another box of Gargoyles to buff the unit up to 30 of the buggers.
Yeah, the SkyTyrant has proven to be better than I thought. That build is definitely a viable one, though it does have some bad matchups as well (i.e. Tau + markerlights).
Iechine wrote: So after a few games of using the Superbeast (Fully kitted out melee flyrant, including ymgarl) I have to say...I like it. It's had a role in every army I've played against he's had a role. I like that he draws my opponents attention, and that my other three flyrants can go off to do what they need to do.
With new Wraithknights out there roaming about, hopefully he can do some good.
Good to hear. Personally, I am still not sold on the melee-flyrant, but I am glad that you have been having some success with it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/22 22:46:03
rollawaythestone wrote: I fell in love with the Skytyrant recently. He is my answer to Grav and I agree about him having a good chance of taking on the Wraithknight. Just pray for no 6's on that stomp! I even bought another box of Gargoyles to buff the unit up to 30 of the buggers.
Yeah, the SkyTyrant has proven to be better than I thought. That build is definitely a viable one, though it does have some bad matchups as well (i.e. Tau + markerlights).
Tau can brutalize that formation, true, but people dipping into Tau for cheap anti-air options might have a problem facing something like this. A bunch of Iontides are going to get rolled over. I feel like many people now are packing in lots of anti-air options to take on Flyrant spam, which makes the Skytyrant an excellent meta-choice.
It's not so much the Iontides as it is the broadsides and massed suits (with markerlight support, of course) that worries me as a Tyranid player. One of the more brutal Tau builds is one that runs the Tau Firebase Cadre. That's 1 riptide and 2x3 broadsides. That build can really give us problems.
jifel wrote: A barbed Heirodule in cover stands a good chance actually. And is twice the cost... So it's not that great. Basically just fly around it and pray. A Skytyrant with Reaper honestly could do well but will get murdered by Jetbikes.
Barbie's got a pretty good chance. If the WK isn't in cover, Barbie can do 3.33 wounds a turn to it. On the other hand in 2 rounds of shooting the Wraith Knight has a 44% chance of 6'ing Barbie.
Skytyrant doesn't do as well as you think. It needs 3 rounds of combat to take the WK down. In 3 rounds, the WK is going to 6 the Flyrant.
Psychic Powers and Tarpits. Make your game plan around not killing it and losing a walking MC ever other turn to it. It is an absurdly undercosted LOW, and Tyranids don't really have an effective answer to it.
The Barbed Hierodule is a decent counter, the problem is that he's not a Points efficient one. If we have one Barby, then they may have 2 Wraithknights... As to the Skytyrant, remember that his 6s will ignore FNP, as well as causing d3 wounds to the Wraithknight. So, let's say a Flyrant with OA and Reaper charges a WK... 6 attacks hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s is 4.66 hits. On a 5+ to wound with shred, he causes 2.59 wounds. Half of those are a 6 to wound, so ID (goes to d3 wounds, average 2), and then ignore FNP, for 2.59 wounds. The other half (5s to wounds) is 1.3 wounds, which after FNP goes to 0.86 wounds, for a total of 3.45 wounds. Multiply this by 5/6 (for the attacks going from 6 to 5 for round 2, and the average wounds are 6.33 including the first round. Note that this is a full health Wraithknight with two D Cannons, and isn't even including the Gargoyles impact on the combat. Since the Flyrant is Initiative 8, the Wraithknight will only have one chance to stomp before he is (on average) killed, and so there is a 1/3 chance that he kills the Flyrant before averages kill him. Even if that happens, he will be tarpitted for a while and likely low on wounds, maybe even enough for the poisoned 6+ gargoyles to finish him eventually.
So, I must say that the Skytyrant is our most points efficient way to KILL a Wraithknight. Tarpit wise it is clearly a ton of Gargoyles, but this is the next best thing, as long as you can kill the Jetbikes!
I agree. I was running the numbers for a Tyrant without RoO. Shred and +1 S make a big difference now.
I am concerned that jetbikes can eliminate skytyrant with ease. Also, its not super-points efficient. If you are talking 30 Gargs plus a Tyrant with OA, RoO, E.Grubs, and Scy Tals we are looking at 450 points for a 33% chance to get stomped to death (1 round of stomps).
Also Skytyrant is very vulnerable to jetbikes. It can kill them if it can catch them, but 450 points of jetbikes w/ Scatter lasers will make it take 37 saves a turn. A Barbed Heirodule only has to take 7 saves from the same number of jetbikes, and he gets much better saves anyways. On the other hand, Barbie has a reasonably high chance of getting shot to death by the Wraith Knight.
Skytyrant did take a giant buff by the changes to Wave Serpents. And if Wraith Knights are killing all of the Imperial Knights like one would expect. Its an interesting meta shift. Necron Mech fades, then Eldar Mech fades. AD Mech, Eldar, and Necrons all have the tools to easily deal with Ad Lance. 7th edition was the age of Mech, but perhaps, we are moving into a new age where Skytyrant is much more viable than it has been in the past.
If they fix buffmander, it might even be possible to use it in a TAC list, though the lack of any secondary characters to each challenges makes it rough.
2015/04/23 01:54:11
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Let's see how resilient our bugs are to Eldar shooting. In particular, I am talking about Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers, because that will most likely be a common (and very dangerous) unit that you will see people run.
Assume - No Guide/Prescience on the jetbikes, no FNP/Catalyst on their targets.
10 Jetbikes, all with Scatter Lasers = 40 S6 shots a turn (and that is only 1 unit!).
vs 30 Gargoyles with Malanthrope cover (which is typical of a SkyTyrant formation as well):
Out in the open (5+ cover) = 40 shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wounds x 2/3 failed saves = 15 dead
Behind cover (3+ cover) = 7 dead
vs T6 6W Sv 3+ TMC:
40 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 4.4W
With malanthrope cover + ruins (2+ cover) = 2.2W
vs Swooping Flyrant
40 shots x 1/6 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 1W
With Prescience/Guide = 40 shots x (1/6 + 5/6 x 1/6) hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 2W
So as you can see, flyrants will stand the best chance against Eldar bikers - both offensively and defensively. Defensively, a swooping flyrant is the most resilient unit to Eldar shooting. Offensively, only they have the reach and range to hurt the bikers. As an added bonus, our flyrants don't need to jink against jetbike shooting. Thus, as long as other Eldar units with AP2 shooting aren't firing at our flyrants, then they will mostly be firing at full BS against Eldar bikers.
As for wraithknights? Well, like I said earlier, just ignore them and kill off the rest of the Eldar army instead. Only when you have no better targets do you focus on the WK.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 01:57:21
One other consideration is that the Tyrant gives all his Gargoyles Move Through Cover, so they don't have to fear Dangerous Terrain Checks from Ruins. Abuse that 2+ cover from Ruins + Malanthrope!
rollawaythestone wrote: One other consideration is that the Tyrant gives all his Gargoyles Move Through Cover, so they don't have to fear Dangerous Terrain Checks from Ruins. Abuse that 2+ cover from Ruins + Malanthrope!
Not actually true sadly... He only gives them the "no -2 to charge" benefit, not the ignoring dangerous terrain.
2015/04/23 02:59:14
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
rollawaythestone wrote: One other consideration is that the Tyrant gives all his Gargoyles Move Through Cover, so they don't have to fear Dangerous Terrain Checks from Ruins. Abuse that 2+ cover from Ruins + Malanthrope!
Not actually true sadly... He only gives them the "no -2 to charge" benefit, not the ignoring dangerous terrain.
EDIT:
On to the viability of the Skytyrant itself: It's a decent choice (I've playtested it a few times) and it's noticeably main weakness is Tau. A Firebase list with markerlights ignored cover and managed to completely kill the squad without it seeing assault. Now, to be fair, I did win this game as my opponent failed to kill any of the 4 FMCs I was packing at the time.
My biggest problem with the Skytyrant currently is that it takes up a Detachment, meaning I will only be able to run 2 additional Flyrants with the list, or lose my Bastion and Objective Secured. While this may not sound bad, I am currently going with a no-FW self ban in preparation for the ATC in July. And, to be honest, Venomthropes really really need a Bastion, plus Comms are fun. Now, based on the new Eldar, I am assuming the worst (no limits whatsoever on the Dex for competitive play) and hoping for the best (no ranged D, all LOW are still 0-1 even in a formation.)
Now best case scenario, my list changes very little if at all. A wraithknight with a D sword is a pain, but can be avoided just like a Knight if needs be while I am relatively confident I can take on the rest of the army. Yes Jetbikes are good, but Flyrants don't match up too poorly.
Now, Worst Case scenario... My army is based around a huge Skytyrant with multiple Malanthropes to support. A Barbed Hierodule helps deal with multiple Wraithknights if there's too much for the SkyTyrant, and 2 Flyrants. Remaining points go to Mawlocs, because screw Jetbikes.
with 40 points left. It could still do reasonably well as a TAC with two very high threat targets and good shooting plus Shrouded. On the other hand, it feels too "death star" to me, even if it can most likely handle a Wraithknight or two.
But, from a TAC I would say either a Barby or a Skytyrant is enough, not both. Looking at the above, it feels too light on support units. Time will tell!
2015/04/23 04:27:32
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jifel wrote: My biggest problem with the Skytyrant currently is that it takes up a Detachment, meaning I will only be able to run 2 additional Flyrants with the list, or lose my Bastion and Objective Secured. While this may not sound bad, I am currently going with a no-FW self ban in preparation for the ATC in July. And, to be honest, Venomthropes really really need a Bastion, plus Comms are fun. Now, based on the new Eldar, I am assuming the worst (no limits whatsoever on the Dex for competitive play) and hoping for the best (no ranged D, all LOW are still 0-1 even in a formation.)
I really, really wanted to run Tyranids at ATC but after playtesting the missions I just feel like I would be letting my team down, forcing them to let me choose favorable matchups. So, I've decided to go with my Orks because they can deathstar better (green tide), and generally, the best deathstar wins the missions.
2015/04/23 06:23:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jy2 wrote: Let's see how resilient our bugs are to Eldar shooting. In particular, I am talking about Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers, because that will most likely be a common (and very dangerous) unit that you will see people run.
Assume - No Guide/Prescience on the jetbikes, no FNP/Catalyst on their targets.
10 Jetbikes, all with Scatter Lasers = 40 S6 shots a turn (and that is only 1 unit!).
vs 30 Gargoyles with Malanthrope cover (which is typical of a SkyTyrant formation as well):
Out in the open (5+ cover) = 40 shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wounds x 2/3 failed saves = 15 dead
Behind cover (3+ cover) = 7 dead
vs T6 6W Sv 3+ TMC:
40 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 4.4W
With malanthrope cover + ruins (2+ cover) = 2.2W
vs Swooping Flyrant
40 shots x 1/6 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 1W
With Prescience/Guide = 40 shots x (1/6 + 5/6 x 1/6) hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 2W
So as you can see, flyrants will stand the best chance against Eldar bikers - both offensively and defensively. Defensively, a swooping flyrant is the most resilient unit to Eldar shooting. Offensively, only they have the reach and range to hurt the bikers. As an added bonus, our flyrants don't need to jink against jetbike shooting. Thus, as long as other Eldar units with AP2 shooting aren't firing at our flyrants, then they will mostly be firing at full BS against Eldar bikers.
As for wraithknights? Well, like I said earlier, just ignore them and kill off the rest of the Eldar army instead. Only when you have no better targets do you focus on the WK.
OK but now consider the crimson hunter formation. It's three crimson hunters, one must be an exarch so 140 + 140 + 160 = 440 pts.
It has an automatic 4+ cover save that becomes rerollable if it jinks. Those things will murder flyrants very efficiently and with an autarch have a decent shot at getting the drop on them, they also have vector dancer which allows them to stay in the fight.
A flyrant is how much? 230 not counting muccalids to bring them? So your looking at that formation vs 2 flyrants. Eldar do anti air very well now unlike the last dex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 130 Jetseer Relic stone bike
50 warlock Bike
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 shuricanon bikes + jetwarlock
50 Vyper dual canons
440 crimson hunter formation
295 Wraithknight
1520
That list is just tossed together as a demonstration using the warhost and still has 330 points left over and I think it can be nastier if you just use a CAD + crimson hunter formation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 16:15:45
jy2 wrote: Let's see how resilient our bugs are to Eldar shooting. In particular, I am talking about Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers, because that will most likely be a common (and very dangerous) unit that you will see people run.
Assume - No Guide/Prescience on the jetbikes, no FNP/Catalyst on their targets.
10 Jetbikes, all with Scatter Lasers = 40 S6 shots a turn (and that is only 1 unit!).
vs 30 Gargoyles with Malanthrope cover (which is typical of a SkyTyrant formation as well):
Out in the open (5+ cover) = 40 shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wounds x 2/3 failed saves = 15 dead
Behind cover (3+ cover) = 7 dead
vs T6 6W Sv 3+ TMC:
40 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 4.4W
With malanthrope cover + ruins (2+ cover) = 2.2W
vs Swooping Flyrant
40 shots x 1/6 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 1W
With Prescience/Guide = 40 shots x (1/6 + 5/6 x 1/6) hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 2W
So as you can see, flyrants will stand the best chance against Eldar bikers - both offensively and defensively. Defensively, a swooping flyrant is the most resilient unit to Eldar shooting. Offensively, only they have the reach and range to hurt the bikers. As an added bonus, our flyrants don't need to jink against jetbike shooting. Thus, as long as other Eldar units with AP2 shooting aren't firing at our flyrants, then they will mostly be firing at full BS against Eldar bikers.
As for wraithknights? Well, like I said earlier, just ignore them and kill off the rest of the Eldar army instead. Only when you have no better targets do you focus on the WK.
OK but now consider the crimson hunter formation. It's three crimson hunters, one must be an exarch so 140 + 140 + 160 = 440 pts.
It has an automatic 4+ cover save that becomes rerollable if it jinks. Those things will murder flyrants very efficiently and with an autarch have a decent shot at getting the drop on them, they also have vector dancer which allows them to stay in the fight.
A flyrant is how much? 230 not counting muccalids to bring them? So your looking at that formation vs 2 flyrants. Eldar do anti air very well now unlike the last dex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 130 Jetseer Relic stone bike
50 warlock Bike
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 shuricanon bikes + jetwarlock
50 Vyper dual canons
440 crimson hunter formation
295 Wraithknight
1520
That list is just tossed together as a demonstration using the warhost and still has 330 points left over and I think it can be nastier if you just use a CAD + crimson hunter formation.
While that is an improvement, that doesn't necessarily make them better in terms of AA or in dealing with flyrants. In the previous Eldar book, they could take the even better Nightwings with their 2+ jink cover saves (and they still can). They also had the bonus of the wave serpents. IMO, Eldar have gotten more deadly in some areas and less in others (no more long-term cover-ignoring firepower). They will still be tough to deal with for our bugs but not impossible. I think we've got the tools to give the new Eldar a good fight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 16:51:13
Even ignoring the Crimson Hunters, someone had mentioned that Eldar Missile Launchers have a free Skyfire option now. Wave Serpents, Vypers, Falcons, Warwalkers, Wraithlords, Guardians, Dark Reapers, Wasps, Hornets, Corsairs and Corsair Venoms can all get cheap skyfire now. Can someone confirm?
jy2 wrote: Let's see how resilient our bugs are to Eldar shooting. In particular, I am talking about Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers, because that will most likely be a common (and very dangerous) unit that you will see people run.
Assume - No Guide/Prescience on the jetbikes, no FNP/Catalyst on their targets.
10 Jetbikes, all with Scatter Lasers = 40 S6 shots a turn (and that is only 1 unit!).
vs 30 Gargoyles with Malanthrope cover (which is typical of a SkyTyrant formation as well):
Out in the open (5+ cover) = 40 shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wounds x 2/3 failed saves = 15 dead
Behind cover (3+ cover) = 7 dead
vs T6 6W Sv 3+ TMC:
40 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 4.4W
With malanthrope cover + ruins (2+ cover) = 2.2W
vs Swooping Flyrant
40 shots x 1/6 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 1W
With Prescience/Guide = 40 shots x (1/6 + 5/6 x 1/6) hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 2W
So as you can see, flyrants will stand the best chance against Eldar bikers - both offensively and defensively. Defensively, a swooping flyrant is the most resilient unit to Eldar shooting. Offensively, only they have the reach and range to hurt the bikers. As an added bonus, our flyrants don't need to jink against jetbike shooting. Thus, as long as other Eldar units with AP2 shooting aren't firing at our flyrants, then they will mostly be firing at full BS against Eldar bikers.
As for wraithknights? Well, like I said earlier, just ignore them and kill off the rest of the Eldar army instead. Only when you have no better targets do you focus on the WK.
OK but now consider the crimson hunter formation. It's three crimson hunters, one must be an exarch so 140 + 140 + 160 = 440 pts.
It has an automatic 4+ cover save that becomes rerollable if it jinks. Those things will murder flyrants very efficiently and with an autarch have a decent shot at getting the drop on them, they also have vector dancer which allows them to stay in the fight.
A flyrant is how much? 230 not counting muccalids to bring them? So your looking at that formation vs 2 flyrants. Eldar do anti air very well now unlike the last dex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 130 Jetseer Relic stone bike
50 warlock Bike
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 shuricanon bikes + jetwarlock
50 Vyper dual canons
440 crimson hunter formation
295 Wraithknight
1520
That list is just tossed together as a demonstration using the warhost and still has 330 points left over and I think it can be nastier if you just use a CAD + crimson hunter formation.
While that is an improvement, that doesn't necessarily make them better in terms of AA or in dealing with flyrants. In the previous Eldar book, they could take the even better Nightwings with their 2+ jink cover saves (and they still can). They also had the bonus of the wave serpents. IMO, Eldar have gotten more deadly in some areas and less in others (no more long-term cover-ignoring firepower). They will still be tough to deal with for our bugs but not impossible. I think we've got the tools to give the new Eldar a good fight.
Disaggree, not saying it's hopeless but the crimson hunter went down considerably in cost (20 pts!) and it's armament pretty much was made for downing flyrants. At 140 you looking at ~2:1 on cost and I would give it to the crimson hunters any day personally since they have better weapons in regard to facing eachother in a dog fight.
rollawaythestone wrote:Even ignoring the Crimson Hunters, someone had mentioned that Eldar Missile Launchers have a free Skyfire option now. Wave Serpents, Vypers, Falcons, Warwalkers, Wraithlords, Guardians, Dark Reapers, Wasps, Hornets, Corsairs and Corsair Venoms can all get cheap skyfire now. Can someone confirm?
jy2 wrote:I doubt it's free, but I guess we will find out tomorrow.
Looking at it right now and eldar missile launchers come with all missile types stock. So while you need to purchase them initially, they all DO have skyfire.
It's 15 points for an eldar missile launcher pretty much accross the board and the WS gets a twin linked one to boot for only 15pts.
Well, at least they aren't free. 15-pts is a fair deal. Do you know if they can turn on or off the skyfire? Otherwise, they'd have to snap-shot at ground units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 19:30:11
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