Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Zarroc1733 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Would also like to see the Avatar of Khaine buffed up a bit, i want him back to his 2nd ed glory days! Having 1 less wound, attack and worse invulnerable save than the Yncarne feels like a slap in the face.

At least there's the molten body stuff.

And he can start on the table rather than having to wait until something dies.

And he has a ranged attack.

Edit- Also Strength 8 compared to 6, he as well as all asuryani in 12 inches can reroll charges and his weapon has the melta effect of rolling 2d6 discarding the lower bringing his average damage up. However the Yncarne can reroll wounds, gets a wound back anytime an aeldari model dies near it and projects a fnp in a bubble. Also remember the Yncarne is 87 points more expensive I beleive (at work away from book)

And the Yncarne is a Psyker who can teleport around the battlefield. Still feel the Avatar of Khaine is lacking somewhat by comparison.

Im just nostalgic for the 2nd ed days when the Avatar and Bloodthirster were like clash of the titans and nowadays when i compare the two there seems a fair difference between them. I'd love it if they released rules for a buffed up Forgeworld Avatar to bring things back in line.

Honestly kind of hope the eldar book gives me a reason to play eldar not ynari. I'm never much one for special characters despite my competitive nature, and i really only care for the fluff of the craftworld eldar (even though they are pretty welll woven).

I am going to just run Craftworld, whatever the book says.

CB

 Chippen wrote:
How are Warp Spiders? As Ynnari, I'm wondering if a squad of 10 + Exarch can warp in, wipe a squad, and soulburst out. With psychic support it seems plausible, especially against like Pathfinder squads.

They badly need errata to shoot after fallback or a deep strike option, otherwise smart opponent won't allow you to shoot them more than once per fight, if ever.

Their shooting is not optimal against infantry or vehicles, which puts them at odd place just like windriders (it's much easier to get enemy infantry in cover with banshees, nuke infantry not in cover with shuriken catapults and destroy multi wound models with dragons or hemlock with serpents with 3 shuriken cannons providing similar fire support as spiders).

Ok so looking at Swooping Hawks and specifically the Sunrifle, why are we not seeing more of these in lists?

The Sunrifle is only a few more points more than a Lasblaster and if a unit suffers an unsaved wound the unit is -1 to ALL hit rolls until the end of the turn. So this gun can half the amount of shots on average that will hit for Conscript and also the number of melee attacks. Not to mention you can neuter any other enemy unit that is threatening your models. Potentially on a Hemlock, if you get off conceal, enemies that have suffered a wound from the Sunrifle are -3 to hit against it. A min squad with Sunrifle is 89pts is that not good value for money?

Plus Rapid Fire 2 guns where you can deepstrike your hawks within rapid fire range, sure its only Strength 3 but its at 4 shots each is pretty good?

Also can anyone clarify that I am reading the rules for grenade pack right, if you fly over say a 50 strong unit of conscripts with a 5 man hawk squad you roll only 5 dice and on a 6 they suffer a mortal wound? I think I just really want it to be you roll one dice for each model in the unit they fly over and no other limit.

Has anyone tried warlock spam for smites? I'm thinking about a supreme command detachment and load up the warlocks into a wave serpent.

Likewise, do you see a point to the conclave? I'd rather have individual warlocks.

 GreaterGood? wrote:
Has anyone tried warlock spam for smites? I'm thinking about a supreme command detachment and load up the warlocks into a wave serpent.

Likewise, do you see a point to the conclave? I'd rather have individual warlocks.

Warlocks have a nerfed Smite which is 9" range and 1 mortal wound. If you want Smite spam consider Farseers who can cast two smites each psychic phase and have the ability to reroll any number of dice in a failed psychic test or Spiritseers which are only 66pts so less than two Warlocks and they do D3 with potential to do D6 mortal wounds. But they can only cast one a turn. Farseers on foot are the most efficient and reliable way to spam Smite for Craftworlds.

At the moment there is not really a reason to take Conclaves as they are the same price per model and are limited in their Psychic phase compared to single Warlocks and they also lose the character special rule. If they were cheaper than individual Warlocks per model there may be more reason to take. Also being one squad they can benefit from psychic buffs but there is really no reason to take them otherwise.


Actually looking at the rules if you have a unit of 7-10 Warlocks in a conclave their Smite is still 9" but always deals D6 mortal wounds, so you could cast D6 Mortal Wound Smite 3 times in a psychic phase. Which may actually be more efficient than the equivalent amount of Farseers. 7 Warlocks in a conclave is about the same price as 2 Farseers on foot plus a single Warlock. So it is comparable amount of Mortal wounds you could get off potentially, though the Conclave Smite and Psychic ability degrades as you lose Warlocks.

Sunrifle and the Phoenix nightfire missiles only work until end of turn so their most likely outcome is -1 to hit in the enemies return fight phase after being charged. Which isn't terrible but obviously not as good as the preferred -1 to shooting for the enemies turn.
The swooping hawk can still pull this off through soulburst in the enemy turn but it is pretty hard to line up. A good use for soulbursting with yvraine to word of the Phoenix the swooping Hawks who are 18 away letting them shoot. But yeah can't see it happening consistently enough to make it worth while.

But hey, bowling banshees plus warlock drain plus sunrifle means anyone who doesn't die from the banshee charge is at -3 to strike back.

As for smite spam, in matched play obviously farseers and the conclave can't multi cast smite. And yes weakened smite on warlocks does neuter the smite spam.

The main advantage of the conclave is the whole unit benefiting from psychic spells and also being able to soak overwatch better. Tho the only psychic spell that matters to affect them is fortune (or word of the Phoenix if ynnari) tho is that worth giving up just straight not being able to target and cast more powers for? Also buffed smite at the larger conclave size can be useful.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Sunrifle and the Phoenix nightfire missiles only work until end of turn so their most likely outcome is -1 to hit in the enemies return fight phase after being charged. Which isn't terrible but obviously not as good as the preferred -1 to shooting for the enemies turn.
The swooping hawk can still pull this off through soulburst in the enemy turn but it is pretty hard to line up. A good use for soulbursting with yvraine to word of the Phoenix the swooping Hawks who are 18 away letting them shoot. But yeah can't see it happening consistently enough to make it worth while.

But hey, bowling banshees plus warlock drain plus sunrifle means anyone who doesn't die from the banshee charge is at -3 to strike back.

I have seen a thread on YMDC but I think its quite clear this is supposed to be for an entire turn so at the end of the enemies turn the effect wears off. I am going to assume it is supposed to be like that so yeah they can also stack with Banshees and Warlocks. I think combined with Wraithblades with Ghostswords are more resilient but would only be -2 in combat with drain and Sunrifle. I think -2 and -3 to hit is really really powerful though and we should be making uses as Craftworld players to use our multiple sources of -1 to hit in combination.

As for smite spam, in matched play obviously farseers and the conclave can't multi cast smite. And yes weakened smite on warlocks does neuter the smite spam.

The main advantage of the conclave is the whole unit benefiting from psychic spells and also being able to soak overwatch better. Tho the only psychic spell that matters to affect them is fortune (or word of the Phoenix if ynnari) tho is that worth giving up just straight not being able to target and cast more powers for? Also buffed smite at the larger conclave size can be useful.

Matched play limits all powers except Smite from being cast multiple times, so you can spam Smite.

There are your turn and enemy's turn, which is why Sunrifle is not worth it.

You can't "spam" Smite because a psyker is always limited to 1 same psychic power. Psychic Focus just extends this rule to 1 same psychic power per turn with exception of Smite.

 Shadenuat wrote:
There are your turn and enemy's turn, which is why Sunrifle is not worth it.

You can't "spam" Smite because a psyker is always limited to 1 same psychic power. Psychic Focus just extends this rule to 1 same psychic power per turn with exception of Smite.

You are correct, I had it mixed up I thought battle round was what they renamed player turns. Which seems ridiculous and RAW you can only use the Sunrifle to nerf their hit rolls in your turn. I think if RAI was for this it would specify it only working in the assault phase. So I think RAI is that it should effect the enemies shooting in their turn.

And I also misread the rules for Smite, it is indeed once per psyker. But you can still spam Smite with multiple psykers. In that case if you want to spam Smite, you can take one or two Farseers to have guide and doom and also Smite and maybe a load of Spiritseers. I'm not sure what other races have in terms of Smite spam.

Yeah what shadenaut said.
I agree RAI is those effects should last a whole round and would definitely make them worth it (shadow spectres/hemlock/warp spiders + conceal + sunrifle is nasty) but unfortunately RAW it does not work like that. Leaving them niche at best. Was hoping it would be faqed but no luck

We really don't know. Game designer's mind is dark and full of avengers in falcons, maybe he thought sunrifle would be a tool to reduce enemy retaliation against your units during fight phase.

>>I'm not sure what other races have in terms of Smite spam.

Primaris psykers. For when you need two warlocks for the price of one.

 Shadenuat wrote:
We really don't know. Game designer's mind is dark and full of avengers in falcons, maybe he thought sunrifle would be a tool to reduce enemy retaliation against your units during fight phase.

>>I'm not sure what other races have in terms of Smite spam.

Primaris psykers. For when you need two warlocks for the price of one.

Just checkout the top two lists of the NOVA Open GT.... you will see how other armies use smite spam. I hate both those lists.. they both exemplify everything that is wrong in the current game design!

If those arrmies start dominating consitently then people will just start bringing a Culexus. Just one of him shuts down smite-spam pretty hard and he can pop up like a jack-in-a-box whenever you need him.

Either that or just FAQ Smite so that it if affected by Psychic Focus just like other powers.

Which is great for armies with a Culexus...

pm713 wrote:
Which is great for armies with a Culexus...

About half of tournament armies tend to be Imperium of one flavour or another so plenty of access to him. My point is that if people start fielding him on a regular basis it will make people think twice before bringing Smite spam. This is something of a meta-level counter rather than a list based counter. The popularity of a Culexas will turn psyker heavy armies from reliable into win-big, lose-big depending on the match-up.

 Karhedron wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Which is great for armies with a Culexus...

About half of tournament armies tend to be Imperium of one flavour or another so plenty of access to him. My point is that if people start fielding him on a regular basis it will make people think twice before bringing Smite spam. This is something of a meta-level counter rather than a list based counter. The popularity of a Culexas will turn psyker heavy armies from reliable into win-big, lose-big depending on the match-up.

Making an meta change that turns any kind of army into a "win-big, lose-big" army is kind of the opposite of balance (outside of Rock-Paper-Scissors). How about we just balance Smite instead?
Psychic armies need a power available to them that isn't limited to 1 casting attempt, otherwise you neuter Psychic armies entirely.

My suggestion is to make it cast on a 7+, with the boosted damage on 11+. Otherwise keep it unchanged. This will make Smite spam lists unappealing, but still give a back-up power to armies like Tzeentch, GKs and Eldar. Obviously certain units that have altered Smites would need to be adjusted too.

-

Never mind I'm still thinking on terms of 7th edition reserves

While shuriken cannons are great, spamming Str 6 isn't as effective as it used to be. With the change of the wound chart they only wound t4 on 3s and with extra wounds on vehicles they are less effective at glancing tanks to death.

Still one of our best weapons.

Wyldcarde wrote:
While shuriken cannons are great, spamming Str 6 isn't as effective as it used to be. With the change of the wound chart they only wound t4 on 3s and with extra wounds on vehicles they are less effective at glancing tanks to death.

Still one of our best weapons.

Yes the dynamics of the weapon have changed now the an example is that it makes no difference if you use a Cannon or Catapult against a Dreadnought (kills it with 62 shots avg).

That said the "rending like feature" makes all shuriken weapons quite deadly vs anything that dose not have invulnerable save.

I use to uses WarpSpiders jump in Pop a Dread and jump out , Not going to be able to do that now : )

Shuricannons have twice the range which helps to keep the unit out of charge range. Even though they can withdraw from Combat and still shoot, CC is not where our bikes or grav tanks want to be (unless you are using them to eat overwatch).

Also T7 is quite a specific area (although it does cover a lot of Dreads and Tanks). Against every other toughness, Shuricannons get at least +1 to wound over shuricats. Against T5, they wound on a 3+ vs a 5+ for Shuricats. Significant if you expect to see Death Guard heaving up in your meta.

Had an interesting outing last night against an ad mech soup list.
Ended up playing hammer and anvil which wasn't ideal but lead to some interesting moments.
I took a bastion filled with dark reapers to see how it went. The ad mech player shot a knight Paladins battlecannon and 2 dunecrawlers Str 10 gun into it only doing 6 wounds. Which was nice to see. The survivability seems to be there though trades of being able to wotp and guide them. Still they did perfectly fine dropping 9 wounds on a vulture turn 1 and killing a doomed dunecrawler turn 2.
Highlight of the game for me was turn 1 tho. With most of the enemies good stuff out of range I had no targets for doom apart from his 50 conscript squad and only my shadow spectres that could meaningfully them. So I ended up guiding them and wotp them and shooting at the conscripts twice for 44 dead conscripts from their non flamer mode.

I recently tried a Yncarne + Hemlock combo which worked pretty well.

Park the hemlock right in front of an enemy unit on a flank and shoot it. If the Hemlock kills the unit (possibly with help from long range shooting) you can bring the Yncarne in. The Hemlock will be closer to most of the opponents army than the Yncarne so it has to be shot first, and it's very durable with a -2 to hit from conceal. They then have a CC beast in their DZ to deal with.

The only other way I've found to bring the Yncarne in reliably requires rushing your whole army into the opponents lines, so this is a nice way to make him work in a list that prefers to hang back.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I recently tried a Yncarne + Hemlock combo which worked pretty well.

Park the hemlock right in front of an enemy unit on a flank and shoot it. If the Hemlock kills the unit (possibly with help from long range shooting) you can bring the Yncarne in. The Hemlock will be closer to most of the opponents army than the Yncarne so it has to be shot first, and it's very durable with a -2 to hit from conceal. They then have a CC beast in their DZ to deal with.

The only other way I've found to bring the Yncarne in reliably requires rushing your whole army into the opponents lines, so this is a nice way to make him work in a list that prefers to hang back.

Unless they faq'd it, conceal only affects infantry and bikes. So the Hemlock cannot benefit from conceal.

InstaAxeToast wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I recently tried a Yncarne + Hemlock combo which worked pretty well.

Park the hemlock right in front of an enemy unit on a flank and shoot it. If the Hemlock kills the unit (possibly with help from long range shooting) you can bring the Yncarne in. The Hemlock will be closer to most of the opponents army than the Yncarne so it has to be shot first, and it's very durable with a -2 to hit from conceal. They then have a CC beast in their DZ to deal with.

The only other way I've found to bring the Yncarne in reliably requires rushing your whole army into the opponents lines, so this is a nice way to make him work in a list that prefers to hang back.

Unless they faq'd it, conceal only affects infantry and bikes. So the Hemlock cannot benefit from conceal.

It affects the psyker as well as infantry and bikes within 3". So, since it simply affects the Psyker it will apply to him. It won't matter what keywords the Caster has.

Goobi2 wrote:

InstaAxeToast wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I recently tried a Yncarne + Hemlock combo which worked pretty well.

Park the hemlock right in front of an enemy unit on a flank and shoot it. If the Hemlock kills the unit (possibly with help from long range shooting) you can bring the Yncarne in. The Hemlock will be closer to most of the opponents army than the Yncarne so it has to be shot first, and it's very durable with a -2 to hit from conceal. They then have a CC beast in their DZ to deal with.

The only other way I've found to bring the Yncarne in reliably requires rushing your whole army into the opponents lines, so this is a nice way to make him work in a list that prefers to hang back.

Unless they faq'd it, conceal only affects infantry and bikes. So the Hemlock cannot benefit from conceal.

It affects the psyker as well as infantry and bikes within 3". So, since it simply affects the Psyker it will apply to him. It won't matter what keywords the Caster has.

Wow! I cannot beleive I mis-read that so many times !

I will have to keep that in mind from now on.

Any predictions for Craftworld traits?

I think it's more likely our traits will effect all of our units with <Craftworld> keyword like the Ad mech stuff.

I'm hoping for at least one that gives this -1 to hit outside 12" because we have so much stuff that already benefits from this like Conceal and Vectored Engines it will be effective to stack it more. Also a deep strike strategem representing webway gates would be cool and fluffy but this was previously a mechanic of Dark Eldar so maybe not.

Aspect Warriors to troop slot for Biel-tan, Windriders to troops for Saim-hann, Path finders for Alaitoc, Black Guardians for Ulthwe and better wraith for Iyanden.

Also traits for minor craftworlds would be awesome.

With eldar having access to conceal and a few units that already come with -1 to hit, I highly doubt they will add a -1 to hit army wide. Would be too powerful. And would mean shadow spectres, warp spiders and possibly hemlocks all under conceal would be -3 to hit! That's 6s at best for the vast majority of things out there.

As long as what they bring in for craftworlds is on par with soulburst I will be happy. Making that a meaningful choice to make rather than just soulburst > battle focus so why not play Ynarri?

It's weird, since it seems like they're handing out the Alpha Legion tactic/stratagem to everybody and it's a really obvious choice for Alatoic. But yeah, it's exceptionally powerful when coupled with Conceal or Hard to Hit or other penalties. Surely they're not going to exclude Jump Infantry from getting traits, though it's pretty plausible that they'll exclude flyers.

(Chaos) Marines got traits on just infantry, bikes, and dreadnoughts. Craftworld Eldar are a fairly fleshed-out army with rough equivalents to all of these, so I don't think we should be surprised if we only get traits on infantry, bikes, and wraithlords. This would be disappointing, though, since Eldar are much more reliant on their vehicles and don't typically want to deploy lots of infantry on the table, and wraithlords are far less flexible than dreadnoughts (plus we have no equivalent to the forgeworld dreads).