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I thought the Lord of Skulls was World Eaters specific?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought the Lord of Skulls was World Eaters specific?

Although it was bundled up with them in the Index for some reason, they are just Khorne specific. Not WE.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.

He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.

Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.

The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.

I'm sorry but none of what you are saying makes sense. He literally asked "Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?"

The answer to that question is unmistakably yes. That's exactly what it's like. Hell it's even worse, because TSons offers other strong units and strats other than Ahriman. Black Legion really don't give you anything at all without Abaddon. Saying "well it's CSM and you can't polish a turd" doesn't make sense. He was talking about what makes sense when you run the faction. You're basically saying that either way it sucks, okay, that doesn't answer the question though.


Are YOU aware that tactics are still relevant in casual games? He's asking for help on what makes sense and what's good, saying that Black Legion doesn't need to have Abaddon is just flat wrong in context of his question. As I said, the answer remains the same either way whether or not you are playing at high level - can you still run the faction without Abby, and basically just play Black Legion without the one thing that makes them good? Sure, and I'm sure you're aware you can do this with every Legion. He asked about what makes sense for Black Legion, and as you can see by his response:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Okay, I see your point. It's like playing World Eaters with no Berzerkers, or Night Lords with no raptors. Without playing to its strengths, the legion stays mediocre.

My answer was correct, as this is exactly what BL without Abaddon was, and clearly what he was asking about. In fact's, it's actually worse than the example he gave here, because at least World Eaters have a decent Legion trait and relic, and Nightlords have a good stratagem.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought the Lord of Skulls was World Eaters specific?

Although it was bundled up with them in the Index for some reason, they are just Khorne specific. Not WE.

This. Actually, you can run a Khorne Lord of skulls with any chaos army if you take it as a super heavy auxiliary detachment. Its like how you can run other CSM detachments to get sorcerors in a world eaters army. And you can make your Khorne lord of skulls belong to any legion except for those that can't take mark of Khorne.

Is it just me or is the greater possessed a more expensive and worse in every way Bloodmaster.

Take a bloodmaster, make it's signature ability only effect heretic astartes daemons, instead of all daemons, in an army that GW apparently forgot they wrote in such a way that taking daemons in your detachments breaks them and they don't have the heretic astartes keyword. (so it's only going to effect a small handful of units, most of which don't really even benefit from the +1 str much)

now take away it's 2nd ability to allow for re-rolling charges.

then increase it's points by 14

and you have a greater possessed. Worse in every way, effects less units, and costs more. GW, you ever read your own rules?

I dug my old khorne daemonkin out after seeing shadowspear, but unfortunately in a book called "daemonkin" GW seems to have forgotten to make daemonkin armies actually work again by fixing keywords and allowing synergies. Oh well, maybe in 9e.

Danny slag wrote:
Is it just me or is the greater possessed a more expensive and worse in every way Bloodmaster.

Take a bloodmaster, make it's signature ability only effect heretic astartes daemons, instead of all daemons, in an army that GW apparently forgot they wrote in such a way that taking daemons in your detachments breaks them and they don't have the heretic astartes keyword. (so it's only going to effect a small handful of units, most of which don't really even benefit from the +1 str much)

now take away it's 2nd ability to allow for re-rolling charges.

then increase it's points by 14

and you have a greater possessed. Worse in every way, effects less units, and costs more. GW, you ever read your own rules?

I dug my old khorne daemonkin out after seeing shadowspear, but unfortunately in a book called "daemonkin" GW seems to have forgotten to make daemonkin armies actually work again by fixing keywords and allowing synergies. Oh well, maybe in 9e.

Bloodmasters only let you reroll charges in a Khorne detachment. Greater Possessed will also benefit from Legion Traits, which is the same sort of rule.

Furthermore, Greater Possessed were meant to synergize with daemon engines, the cult of destruction, and possessed - not with daemons. Indeed, Greater Possessed and the Malefic psychic discipline don't even work with Thousand Sons or Death Guard. This isn't an oversight. It's by design.

Do also note that a Greater Possessed has +1 M, +1 T, +1 W, and +2 A over a Bloodmaster, in addition to a 3+ Save. So it's not as if the Bloodmaster is strictly better.

 MinMax wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Is it just me or is the greater possessed a more expensive and worse in every way Bloodmaster.

Take a bloodmaster, make it's signature ability only effect heretic astartes daemons, instead of all daemons, in an army that GW apparently forgot they wrote in such a way that taking daemons in your detachments breaks them and they don't have the heretic astartes keyword. (so it's only going to effect a small handful of units, most of which don't really even benefit from the +1 str much)

now take away it's 2nd ability to allow for re-rolling charges.

then increase it's points by 14

and you have a greater possessed. Worse in every way, effects less units, and costs more. GW, you ever read your own rules?

I dug my old khorne daemonkin out after seeing shadowspear, but unfortunately in a book called "daemonkin" GW seems to have forgotten to make daemonkin armies actually work again by fixing keywords and allowing synergies. Oh well, maybe in 9e.

Bloodmasters only let you reroll charges in a Khorne detachment. Greater Possessed will also benefit from Legion Traits, which is the same sort of rule.

Furthermore, Greater Possessed were meant to synergize with daemon engines, the cult of destruction, and possessed - not with daemons. Indeed, Greater Possessed and the Malefic psychic discipline don't even work with Thousand Sons or Death Guard. This isn't an oversight. It's by design.

Do also note that a Greater Possessed has +1 M, +1 T, +1 W, and +2 A over a Bloodmaster, in addition to a 3+ Save. So it's not as if the Bloodmaster is strictly better.

I wasn't talking about them working with death guard or thousand sons, I was saying that unit in DAEMONKIN should probably effect daemons, and an army called DAEMONKIN should probably be able to work with daemons. If its by design its really poor design because it doesn't even fit the narrative they're trying to sell.

greater possessed abilities:
+1 str to a very restrictive list of units

Bloodmaster abilities:
+1 str to a less restrictive list of units
re-roll charges

GP costs more while being less useful.

To reroll charges, Possessed have access to the Banner that does it, and everything else has enough movement speed it doesn't matter. Or they shoot so it would be for defensive melee.

Only ones left out in the cold are Mutilators.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To reroll charges, Possessed have access to the Banner that does it, and everything else has enough movement speed it doesn't matter. Or they shoot so it would be for defensive melee.

Only ones left out in the cold are Mutilators.

and no one cares about mutilators.

You also need to put the Bloodmaster in a <Daemon> detachment if you want it to have the re roll charge Locus. Honestly I think that's a useless comparison to make. Furthermore, 2 Bloodmaster auras do not stack whereas 1 Bloodmaster + 1 GP does.

Where are people on the hype meter for the Lord Discordant? I love me some daemon engines so I'd really like to see him be good and make Maulerfiends good, too. Given that he's a big guy with a big weapon maybe he'll be a decent alternative to the daemon prince for a smashy HQ.

I think people are holding back and waiting to see if he is below 10 wounds or not, and the rest of his stats. He certainly looks cool ! : ) And his aura is not bad, something that daemon engines needed.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think people are holding back and waiting to see if he is below 10 wounds or not, and the rest of his stats. He certainly looks cool ! : ) And his aura is not bad, something that daemon engines needed.

I will buy him anyway, model is so cool.

I have a hard time imagining the mount is enough to push him about 10 wound given that mounts don't tend to add very many wounds (I don't think any mounts give more than the 2 the Juggernaut gives?). If he is over 10 wounds then he'll probably be considered entirely as a warpsmith+daemon engine, putting him more in the 12-14 range than the dreaded 10 wounds.

Bloodmaster vs G. Possessed is silly. The Gp hits like a two ton truck compared to the master, but the masters buffs are better within the army.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I have a hard time imagining the mount is enough to push him about 10 wound given that mounts don't tend to add very many wounds (I don't think any mounts give more than the 2 the Juggernaut gives?). If he is over 10 wounds then he'll probably be considered entirely as a warpsmith+daemon engine, putting him more in the 12-14 range than the dreaded 10 wounds.

I think around the 8 wounds mark is most likely but although being above 10 wounds would hurt him there's the chance if him being 12 wounds with a 4++ like a chaos lord. With cursed earth, weaver, miasma or delightful agonies. He could be quite survivable still.

I think the new Iron Warriors preview has to be the most underwhelming preview in 8th Edition. What the hell?

 grouchoben wrote:
I think the new Iron Warriors preview has to be the most underwhelming preview in 8th Edition. What the hell?

Surprised?

Compared to the first book the Boni csm seem to get are a lot more conditional.

The CSM preview continues the tradition of "jump through 10 hoops to do something conditionally that loyalists can do by having a dude standing nearby", you can't even use "muh large unit scaling" as an excuse for this one

 Continuity wrote:
The CSM preview continues the tradition of "jump through 10 hoops to do something conditionally that loyalists can do by having a dude standing nearby", you can't even use "muh large unit scaling" as an excuse for this one

I don't think that's fair, because everyone knows that Roboute is throwing around a lot of imbalancing into the Loyalist Scum codex, which in turn leaked into most of the other PA armies.

Im starting to think everything EXCEPT black legion will be like this. One or two little things.

Vigilus Ablaze: The Black Legion beta codex.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Im starting to think everything EXCEPT black legion will be like this. One or two little things.

Vigilus Ablaze: The Black Legion beta codex.

I say feth em and make Huron the new and improved headhoncho, a man with a Plan, balls to the walls insane, tough and independent.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.

Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?

Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.

Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.

This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets

To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.

As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.

And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.

This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.

Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol
Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too

Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.

He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.

Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.

The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.

Seeing as Cult of Strife is the worst Wych Cult and Ulthwe is middle of the pack at best...how does that help your case?

Cult of strife is not the worst wych obsession. Your talking out your bum now. It's arguably the strongest one. Same with Ulthwe. But then I could also point out you ignoring the other half of the examples a shared.

Advancing + Charging and reroll Charges or S4 + morale immunity > an extra attack the first round of combat
Ulthwe is middle of the road because vehicles can already get the same effect for a few points, making them already more effective just like how Iron Hands Ven Dreads are bad, and I can argue for the benefit of Iyanden for Guardian bombs at least.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.

Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?

Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.

Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.

This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets

To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.

As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.

And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.

This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.

Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol
Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too

Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.

He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.

Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.

The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.

Seeing as Cult of Strife is the worst Wych Cult and Ulthwe is middle of the pack at best...how does that help your case?

Cult of strife is not the worst wych obsession. Your talking out your bum now. It's arguably the strongest one. Same with Ulthwe. But then I could also point out you ignoring the other half of the examples a shared.

Advancing + Charging and reroll Charges or S4 + morale immunity > an extra attack the first round of combat
Ulthwe is middle of the road because vehicles can already get the same effect for a few points, making them already more effective just like how Iron Hands Ven Dreads are bad, and I can argue for the benefit of Iyanden for Guardian bombs at least.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
So this is half tactics half painting, but fakk it, I'M A MAN.

Firstly, is Abby essential for a black legion army? Is it basically like not running Ahriman in T-sons, where it basically just makes no sense not to?

Secondly, would a red/gold paint scheme be fine when running a black legion army? I really don't want to repaint my army, but World Eaters has gotten stale to me (only so many times I can play rhino rush), Renegades lose out on WAY too many important things to play, and Word Bearers are...Well, useless, compared to the better legions like BL and AL.

Abigail is like the main reason the Black Legion trait is so bad. It was written under the assumption you're always taking him and making use of his auras.

This is a fine theory but it doesn't really hold up, Calgar and Gullimun both have similar auras and smurfs still have one of the best traits. Black legion trait sucks, but at least they have Abby, poor word bearers totally got the shaft. I think for your theory to hold water Games workshop would need to actually write consistent rules sets

To answer the question though, you don't need to take abbadon, but he is really strong in certain lists when you build around him and it really depends on the size of the game.

As for painting, I'd play some games as is before changing your armies look on impulse. World eaters may get some new ways to play in the next book after all.

And if you'll notice, Word Bearers have one of THE best Warlord traits and Relics. Strategem requires a lot of building around though, which is why I'm playing with how to tackle a summoning castle and make it Word Bearers and not suck.

This is mostly a consistency though when it comes to the main Heroes. I'd argue how lame Sautekh is as a Dynasty because you have the Stormlord to use. Goffs have Ghazzy and their trait is easily the worst. Abigail was already talked about.

Prophets of flesh have Urien
Cult of Strife have lelith
Ulthwe have Eldrad
For feths sake nearly every Tau special HQ is T'au sept lol
Cadia and Catachan also have the best Specials and far and away doctrines
The list goes on too

Your definitely cherry picking for that theory to hold water. I see where your going, but again, your giving way too much credit to GW here. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence or however it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Running Black Legion without Abaddon is one of the worst suggestions I've heard for competitive play. Please don't listen to Red Corsair on that one.

He asked a specific question in a none competitive context. He even asked about painting for feths sake. You realize tactics still apply in none hyper competitive formats right? This is CSM we are talking about, there is only so much lemonade you can squeeze from a turd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I mean all the Legions are mediocre to okay, it's CSM dex. But you take the best stuff from your Legion and build to it's strengths or else you're even worse than THAT level. Black Legion with no Abaddon may as well be legion-less. With Abaddon it's actually pretty decent.

Some folks paint their models and care how they present on the table (not accusing you of not doing this BTW) So while Abbadon IS clearly the best perk to the black legion in large scale games, he fething sucks in 1000pt or lower games. He's just way to pricey. So for example, unless I play 1500 or more points I don't feel he's necessary.

The best two legion traits are clearly AL and IW. But neither are amazing enough I'd fault someone for playing any of the others. Your making it sound like context isn't a factor when it is. If we are only discussing try hard lists then this entire thread is in trouble lol. CSM is not near the top of the stack, not even close ATM.

Seeing as Cult of Strife is the worst Wych Cult and Ulthwe is middle of the pack at best...how does that help your case?

Cult of strife is not the worst wych obsession. Your talking out your bum now. It's arguably the strongest one. Same with Ulthwe. But then I could also point out you ignoring the other half of the examples a shared.

Advancing + Charging and reroll Charges or S4 + morale immunity > an extra attack the first round of combat
Ulthwe is middle of the road because vehicles can already get the same effect for a few points, making them already more effective just like how Iron Hands Ven Dreads are bad, and I can argue for the benefit of Iyanden for Guardian bombs at least.

Your clearly not a Dark Eldar or Eldar player lol. Feel free to post these opinions in the relevant threads if you want to learn more though. Short answer is your very misinformed though.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Im starting to think everything EXCEPT black legion will be like this. One or two little things.

Vigilus Ablaze: The Black Legion beta codex.

I think the funniest part is that nothing in the Iron Warriors preview (other than the legion trait which is unchanged from the original) is actually unique to the Iron Warriors. The Devastation Battery is a Chaos Space Marines detachment, it can be used by anyone other than TS and DG.

Essentially we learned nothing about what tools the Iron Warriors get in the new book with this preview. Presumably they're going to get something exclusive to them but you sure wouldn't know it from the preview page.

I presume based on the preview that none of the legions will getanything exclusive.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I presume based on the preview that none of the legions will getanything exclusive.

We know the Black Legion is getting exclusive stuff from their preview. If they're the only ones that would be pretty sad. :(

So maybee i have gone insane, but hear me out, i'd like to make a full PA company, basically I want exactly 100 Csm, with csm i include havocs.

How would you go about equipping your 100 csm, weaponry wise and especially what charachters would you field to support such an army?

Atm i am Stuck with an idea of three battalions lead by sorcerers Warpsmiths and some lords.
The trait i'd pick would be AL. Ofcourse Slaanesh marks galore.

saint_red wrote:
You also need to put the Bloodmaster in a <Daemon> detachment if you want it to have the re roll charge Locus. Honestly I think that's a useless comparison to make. Furthermore, 2 Bloodmaster auras do not stack whereas 1 Bloodmaster + 1 GP does.

So it's useless to compare two units that are supposed to provide nearly identical roles to their respective armies, yet one costs more while doing a worse job of it?