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dreadblade wrote: The range on Executioners is super helpful though.
compared to 12 inch move + 30 inch daemonbreath spear? No, I think range is not the issue. You could make the case that they're a decent anti " toughness 6, 3 wound enemy model" killers. But with Strenght 7 I still don't like the 3+ to wound against most units. Maybe if you expect to face a lot of tyranid armies then it could be worth it. Because then you can keep them waaaaay in the back and even outside the flying hive tyrant charge range.
My armylist got the 'worthy offerings' fell bond (+1 to hit against MC/Vehicle/Characters) but I'am also considering the 'precision cruelty' fell bond. An increase in damage and ap for every 6 to wound is good for the chaincannons and stubbers but the +1 to hit is better for the spear. But that means that the chaincannon and stubbers perform better against multi wound models or vehicles/MC, damage wise.
I guess it depends what role you want them to have. I play against SW with my Chaos Knights a lot so getting War Dogs into melee with many units before softening them up isn't high on my priorities. Having them hold back objectives and provide covering fire seems like it could work.
Either way, I need to put a list together with my Desecrator as a Dreadblade to accompany my TSons...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/03 12:27:01
dreadblade wrote: I guess it depends what role you want them to have. I play against SW with my Chaos Knights a lot so getting War Dogs into melee with many units before softening them up isn't high on my priorities. Having them hold back objectives and provide covering fire seems like it could work.
Yes, but most objectives are mid-field so you need to use the wardog's "objective secured + count as 5 models" ability. In the end it is all about the objectives and not about killing.
dreadblade wrote: Either way, I need to put a list together with my Desecrator as a Dreadblade to accompany my TSons...
So you would give it 'Mark of the dread knight' or 'Blessing of the dark master' (favour of the god undivided)? I think I would go for the blessing of the dark master. Completely shut down shooting reroll's is better then a 6+++ feel no pain first turn.
Also fellbond ' worthy offerings' is the best pick in combination with the desecrator laser destructor. Kill one vehicle or MC and you imediately get the favour ability. And as stated before, with chaos undivided you can use a stratagem to get the model back up with 3 wounds on a 4+ after being killed (not exploded) and use the infernal master D6 reroll if needed. With the fellbond worthy offering it keeps shooting with a 4+ against MC/vehicles so that's not bad..
mathematically, the Executioner has comparable or better damage output vs most T7 and T8 targets than the Executioner/Huntsman does. Didn't crunch numbers on the Brigand, but I wouldn't expect the gatling gun to make a significant difference.
vs a carnifex (generic, no extra strats or doctrine abilities or upgrades, etc) from 30" a trio of War Dog Executioners at full wounds will average approx. 8 damage, whereas a trio of War Dog Huntsmen (w/ meltaguns) will only average approx 5.5.
At 15" Executioners will still average 8 damage, while Huntsmen will average 10.
At 12" Executioners will still average 8 damage, while Huntsmen will average 11 (Stalker will stay at 10).
At 6" Executioners will still average 8 damage, while Huntsmen will average 11.7 (Stalker will stay at 10).
In melee, the Huntsman trio would average 8.9 damage, while Executioners would never want to get that close, so are still hanging back 30-60" away plinking out 8 damage.
So all in all the Huntsmen are only moderately better, and only once they close to a close enough range that they are within rapid fire/charge range of whatever they are shooting at and all their friends do they get marginally better. At T7 12 wounds w a 3+/5++ save, War Dogs aren't likely to survive long, at least not without getting profiled at which point their output drops about 25%-50% depending on how many wounds theyve taken.
Vs a tougher target like a hive tyrant, an Executioner trio will still average about 8 damage (HT may have better T than a fex but it doesn't have damage reduction built in), whereas a Huntsmen trio will average:
4.7 dmg @ 30"
7.3 dmg @ 15"
7.8 dmg @ 12"
8.2 dmg @ 6"
8 dmg @ melee (Strike)
that 4+ invul is a real problem for something with so few shots - a Huntsman has to close within 6-12" of a Hive Tyrant to match the damage output of an Executioner sitting in the backfield, and it can only do so if you give it the meltagun. A Stalker without the meltagun can't even match the Executioners output.
We shouldn't rely on math only, of course, because math doesn't tell the full story... but use-case gives the advantage to the Executioner, because its ability to shoot at longer range gives it an advantage in survivability by not requiring it to be in harms way to maximize its damage output. Don't know the math vs T9 targets (which I think is basically just land raiders currently?), so don't know how that skews it.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
So you would give it 'Mark of the dread knight' or 'Blessing of the dark master' (favour of the god undivided)? I think I would go for the blessing of the dark master. Completely shut down shooting reroll's is better then a 6+++ feel no pain first turn.
Also fellbond ' worthy offerings' is the best pick in combination with the desecrator laser destructor. Kill one vehicle or MC and you imediately get the favour ability. And as stated before, with chaos undivided you can use a stratagem to get the model back up with 3 wounds on a 4+ after being killed (not exploded) and use the infernal master D6 reroll if needed. With the fellbond worthy offering it keeps shooting with a 4+ against MC/vehicles so that's not bad..
I agree about Blessing of the Dark Master, but I still might go Tzeentch with the Pyrothrone to be fluffy.
chaos0xomega wrote: We shouldn't rely on math only, of course, because math doesn't tell the full story...
Indeed, the full story involves the synergy with the rest of the army and the enemy units you're most likely facing and gives you trouble.
- If I could remove the invulnerable save on that Hive tyrant then the daemonspear shoots with ap -4 and that really changes the math.
- If you want to shoot at tyranid warriors with D3 Autocannons and the pop that -1Damage then you need twice the amount of shooting to remove a single warriors and waste damage.
- Autocannons are probably better at destroying drukhari/harlequin skimmers but the brigand chaincannon/daemonspear combi is a close second and is more flexible at shooting down 1 wound models after that.
- Autocannons are also probably better against custodes jetbikes but you might waste damage when the use feel no pain. You end up removing that last single wound with a D3 shot and that is such a waste.
All kind of situations with pro's and con's but I think it's unwise to deploy these units way in the backfield when the got objective secured and count as 5 models. The need to move forward and claim the objectives because that's what it is all about. I once charged a Tyranid warrior unit with 4 models left and used the -1damage in melee stratagem. Boneswords only doing 1 wound made it possible for the wardog to survive and claim that objective. Next turn I used the "fall back and shoot/charge again" stratagem and did the same against the next enemy unit on another objecive.
Also fun assaulting with a badly wounded wardog and place it within 6 inch range of 4 enemy wardog's (played against another chaos knight player) and use the "blow up stratagem" for auto-d3 mortal wounds all around.
In conclusion:
I think I would only pick the executioner if I knew that I would be facing a lot of tyranid leviathan players, or armies with a solid invul-save and toughness lower then 7, like drukhari/harlequins or custodes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/05 05:38:45
So, in the latest chaos deamons preview, they have talked about how to mix deamons with other factions:
the short version is, you can take up to 25% of your Power Level (NOT points, intrestingly) as deamons, and all the deamon units gain AGENT OF CHAOS as a keyword, and explictly do not break "purity" requirements for faction rules. For Tsons, their is a rider that the deamons must be tnzeetch ones, and those deamons do not get access to thier own faction purity rules (ie the warp storm abilties).
I am aware that we still dont have the full rules so a considered verdict is not yet really possible, but how to people feel about this? would adding groups of screamers, horrors, or flamers to the army be a nice boost or not really?
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
xerxeskingofking wrote: I am aware that we still dont have the full rules so a considered verdict is not yet really possible, but how to people feel about this? would adding groups of screamers, horrors, or flamers to the army be a nice boost or not really?
Kairos may end up being better in Supreme Command than Magnus. The detachment tax really takes the shine off of this though, especially with Nephilim, but we can generally deal with the tax better than most.
Tzeentch daemons will probably be good for holding objectives as long as they don't get rushed in melee. Honestly, have a hard time seeing where I would fit this in and I think I'd rather just play my Tzeentch daemons in their own army.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
dreadblade wrote: It looks like I'll be up against a 1,000pt SW army next week, and that'll include the Hounds of Morkai and a Culexus Assassin.
1) Drop the Land Raider, get more Rubrics. Land Raiders- even TS Land Raiders with the 5+ invul- are chancy even at 2,000 points; at 1,000 they're a massive point sink that dies entirely too fast to enemy anti-tank (and then takes one-sixth of its passengers with it). If you need more mobility, get some Spawn, or give your guys Temporal Surge and/or a Rhino.
2) Hit the Culexus with those Warpflamers. Gets right past the BS penalty, and has enough firepower to toast him crispy. Look for an opportunity to Sorcerous Facade-drop into a spot where the Culexus is the closest target, negating Look Out Sir, and BBQ him. Also works in Overwatch- if he's silly enough to charge your Warpflamers, you've got him (so still screen your Characters).
3) Also note that, despite his ignoring non-invul saves, a Culexus doesn't actually have a melee weapon. He punches with his STR4 fists for 1 damage a pop. Tri-point him with Rubrics or Scarabs and he can't shoot, and will die eventually to WS6 attacks for minimal losses.
4) The "Implacable Guardians" strat used to be useful against assassins like the Culexus and Hounds, but now it's just Look Out Sir over again. My recommendation is hid your characters completely behind terrain to start, then pop out and hammer the anti-Psyker units with conventional firepower while saving the powers for everything else in the army.
5) Remember Vengeance for Prospero! Re-rolling every hit and wound for your Scarabs is a great thing to spring on a Marine player that thinks your army's hatred of Space Wolves is just a fluff thing. You have special abilities for this specific matchup, don't fail to use them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/12 13:03:41
xerxeskingofking wrote: I am aware that we still dont have the full rules so a considered verdict is not yet really possible, but how to people feel about this? would adding groups of screamers, horrors, or flamers to the army be a nice boost or not really?
Kairos may end up being better in Supreme Command than Magnus. The detachment tax really takes the shine off of this though, especially with Nephilim, but we can generally deal with the tax better than most.
Tzeentch daemons will probably be good for holding objectives as long as they don't get rushed in melee. Honestly, have a hard time seeing where I would fit this in and I think I'd rather just play my Tzeentch daemons in their own army.
I think a LOC + Flamers is a pretty strong addition to Tsons.
The LOC can be either made with the -1 to hit or the extra mortal wounds, and with a 3-- against shooting and the impossible robe is very hard to take down. 3 extra casts with +2 to cast and the teleport stratagem is very strong. Flamers are also just super good and the blue horrors are the mandatory troop tax.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/12 16:12:40
I would be tempted to ask the TO before taking it to a tournament, but it should clearly work.
This is the only possible restriction in the main rules text for CRs.
A unit can only benefit from a Cabbalistic Ritual if it has this ability.
This is the cast again CR.
Use this Cabbalistic Ritual when a unit from your army is selected to manifest psychic powers. Until the end of the phase, that unit can attempt to manifest one Witchfire psychic power that another PSYKER in your army has already attempted to manifest during the phase, even though the same psychic power cannot normally be attempted more than once per Psychic phase, and even if that unit does not know that psychic power.
So 2 x Bolt of Change or 2 x Infernal Gateway are both an option.
Use this Cabbalistic Ritual when a unit from your army is selected to manifest psychic powers. Until the end of the phase, that unit can attempt to manifest one Witchfire psychic power that another PSYKER in your army has already attempted to manifest during the phase, even though the same psychic power cannot normally be attempted more than once per Psychic phase, and even if that unit does not know that psychic power.
So 2 x Bolt of Change or 2 x Infernal Gateway are both an option.
dreadblade wrote: It looks like I'll be up against a 1,000pt SW army next week, and that'll include the Hounds of Morkai and a Culexus Assassin.
1) Drop the Land Raider, get more Rubrics. Land Raiders- even TS Land Raiders with the 5+ invul- are chancy even at 2,000 points; at 1,000 they're a massive point sink that dies entirely too fast to enemy anti-tank (and then takes one-sixth of its passengers with it). If you need more mobility, get some Spawn, or give your guys Temporal Surge and/or a Rhino.
2) Hit the Culexus with those Warpflamers. Gets right past the BS penalty, and has enough firepower to toast him crispy. Look for an opportunity to Sorcerous Facade-drop into a spot where the Culexus is the closest target, negating Look Out Sir, and BBQ him. Also works in Overwatch- if he's silly enough to charge your Warpflamers, you've got him (so still screen your Characters).
3) Also note that, despite his ignoring non-invul saves, a Culexus doesn't actually have a melee weapon. He punches with his STR4 fists for 1 damage a pop. Tri-point him with Rubrics or Scarabs and he can't shoot, and will die eventually to WS6 attacks for minimal losses.
4) The "Implacable Guardians" strat used to be useful against assassins like the Culexus and Hounds, but now it's just Look Out Sir over again. My recommendation is hid your characters completely behind terrain to start, then pop out and hammer the anti-Psyker units with conventional firepower while saving the powers for everything else in the army.
5) Remember Vengeance for Prospero! Re-rolling every hit and wound for your Scarabs is a great thing to spring on a Marine player that thinks your army's hatred of Space Wolves is just a fluff thing. You have special abilities for this specific matchup, don't fail to use them.
I needn't have worried...
I went first, and although the assassin was well screened in cover, I focused my attention on taking out the SW anti-tank and warlord. Ahriman was a bit exposed after that, but survived being attacked in melee then escaped using Sorcerous Facade. On turn 2 the Rubrics fried the assassin and his Thunderwolf Cavalry protectors, and it was all over by the end of my turn 3
Always pleasing to hear about the space pups being slaughtered.
But, for future games, you can't cast Facade on Ahriman or Magnus as they don't have the cult keyword. Also you can't cast it on CAVALRY units (if he wasn't on foot).
EightFoldPath wrote: Always pleasing to hear about the space pups being slaughtered.
But, for future games, you can't cast Facade on Ahriman or Magnus as they don't have the cult keyword. Also you can't cast it on CAVALRY units (if he wasn't on foot).
Yep, I realised that before I read your comment and fessed-up to my opponent
I think the only difference it would have made is that the Wolf Guard who attacked Ahriman could have chased him instead of attacking the Scarabs. As it was they did okay at that, killing 4 out of 5.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/16 07:09:27
With these new allied daemon rules, I'm wondering about some good combos to take in our lists.
Pink Horrors seem a bit expensive for what they do in compared to our rubrics so I took a pass on them. Blue horrors however as cheap infantry seem like they could replace Tzaangors or cultists as the "Sit on this objective and keep your mouth shut"
The Soul Grinder seems like a pretty strong win and compares favorably to our own so-so forgefiend, but it is a bit more expensive.
Flamers are obviously huge. Huge.
So my big question is: is it worth just taking a unit of flamers for the CP tax, or should I try and work in a small patrol detachment? In which case, pink or blue horrors? Which HQ?
I know most of these questions are list dependent, but I'm just musing about what would fit in the average list at the moment.
im looking into the same questions myself, so i will put in my own 2 cents:
blue horrors seem ok, but are slightly worse than tzanngor at the "point holding" role as they are unable to get Obsec, so a single obsec model can snipe them off the point. if your taking them as the "troops tax" of a deamons detachment, then by all means use them for that, though.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
Signed up for a small 3-game tournament with my Thousand Sons and I'm rather surprised about the lists I'll be up against. I've made clear a couple of times my thoughts about tournament play so tried to make a less...sweaty list with what I have available, but I think I'll have a real struggle against the other lists. I've read the Codex multiple times but have only actually played them once.
First game is against White Scars, with the following lists
Me Ahriman
Exalted Sorcerer
Daemon Prince with Wings
10x Rubrics
10x Rubrics
5x Scarabs
Helbrute w. Twin-Las
Helbrute w. Twin-Las
Defiler
Fluxmaster on Disk
10x Horrors
6x Flamers
Him Khan on Bike
Chaplain on Bike
5x Ass Interceptor
5x Incursors
5x Infiltrators
5x Aggressors
15x Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs, Lightning Claws
3x Eliminators
5x Eradicators
10x Hellblasters
I'm really thinking this'll be an uphill struggle. He'll probably try to get Turn 1 charges off, and infiltrate the Eradicators. Any suggestions?
So first game was an absolute shitshow. Pretty much couldn't get any psychic powers or shooting off due to terrain, and thanks to his Advance+Charge he was close to invulnerable thanks to breachable terrain and Fly.
Bit stumped on which secondaries I should take next game. Don't know who I'll be playing next but it could be one of the following lists:
- Grey Knights, with Draigo, numerous Interceptors and 4x Dreadknights
- Guard with 10x Russes of various types, very little infantry
- Sisters and Black Templars, overall a more casual list
- Emperor's Children, numerous small Noise Marine Squads, big Chosen squad with Black Rune
- Blood Angel Tac Marines, with the contents of the Cadia Stands box, and a Knight.
Some of those are more competitive than others, but it would be good to have an idea of which Secondaries I should be using by default, and which ones would be preferable against certain lists.
Today's Forge World FAQ updates the various CSM units that can go into Thousand Sons. In theory they couldn't be taken since the CSMFWFAQ but I guess most people ignored it.
They also added machine spirit to a bunch of stuff and some tweaks to a few rules for the FW Daemons.
I'll be looking through my codex this evening, but can anyone offer any advice on stratagems, psychic powers, relics and warlord traits to counter these worshippers of the false emperor with all their re-rolls, deny the witch abilities and FNP for MWs?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/04/13 22:02:56
dreadblade wrote: Last week I pitted my GK against a 1,000 pt Sisters list comprising of the Sanctorum Guard from the Order of the Bloody Rose and I got totally pasted
I'm up against them again this week, but this time with my TSons:
I'll be looking through my codex this evening, but can anyone offer any advice on stratagems, psychic powers, relics and warlord traits to counter these worshipers of the false emperor with all their re-rolls, deny the witch abilities and FNPs?
Do you have a rough idea of what he's running? I ran 1k against a combined SoB/BT force a few weeks back, I found it better to just rely on your firepower rather than your psychic abilities. Bit naff, I know.
Do you have a rough idea of what he's running? I ran 1k against a combined SoB/BT force a few weeks back, I found it better to just rely on your firepower rather than your psychic abilities. Bit naff, I know.
He ran all of the models from the Sanctorum Guard box as the Order of the Valorous Heart.
dreadblade wrote: Last week I pitted my GK against a 1,000 pt Sisters list comprising of the Sanctorum Guard from the Order of the Bloody Rose and I got totally pasted
I'm up against them again this week, but this time with my TSons:
I'll be looking through my codex this evening, but can anyone offer any advice on stratagems, psychic powers, relics and warlord traits to counter these worshipers of the false emperor with all their re-rolls, deny the witch abilities and FNPs?
There's one thing to note, and that's the Vow the army might take. It'll be the Mini-Transhuman one with the 5++ or the additional move against Psykers with the reroll. I'd actually be less concerned about the first one as you're mostly AP-2, so you're not paying for stuff to run over the 3+/5++ until melee. For the latter, position just enough so it'll be harder to charge you even with their native rules.
Otherwise just mostly take utility powers because relying on offense against a 5+++ won't work out for you.
[1,800] Chaos Knights | 
[1,250] Thousand Sons | 
[1,000] Grey Knights | 40K editions: RT, 8, 9, 10 | 
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts 
Watch Company Rho 1650pts
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
